trevoralt

Last Thursday while traveling home to Reno NV from Monterey CA I stopped at a dealer and bought a 2013 Convertible C6 with the automatic transmission. About 46,000 miles, price $32,000.

The dealer assured me everything was "perfect" and produced a clean carfax stating it had been owned by a rental car company. I figured that was ok since they would do the required maintenance.

I drove it from the east bay to Stockton (about 2 hours) and had dinner with my parents on the way home. After dinner I was going to fill up (I had 1/8 of a tank left with no light on). The car would barely start, ran rough, and died repeatedly. It was late and the wife and I had to work early next am so we left the car with my parents and drove home.

My Dad thought the battery was bad and put it on a charger but he still felt it was bad. It would not start. He said the starter button required several presses to turn off the starter and several more to turn off accessories. He emailed me saying "Last night I thought it was catching and then immediately dying. But when I did it myself this morning, it was apparent that the the battery is charged and the starter is working fine--the problem is that the engine is not getting a spark--like the ignition is grounded. Its not bad gas. I have had a car with keyless ignition for 5 years--so I don't think I am doing it wrong"

Laster that day he emailed again

"I've driven it about 10 miles--3 separate drives and no problems
This morning I tried to start it without success. The starter turned it over quickly, but it seemed like it wasn't getting a spark. If it was lack of gas or bad gas--why did it run ok until you got here-but then wouldn't start
The battery wasn't dead--still turning the engine over quickly--but I figured that we had might have run it down part way and a light said it was in "battery save mode" So I hooked it up to the 6 amp charger for several hours.
Later, I went out in my car and bought a 5 gallon gas can and had it filled with premium.
Before I put in the gas, I tried to start it one more time--it fired up immediately and ran fine. I then put in the 4.8 gallons of fresh gas and drove around Brookside to get the fresh gas though the gas line to the engine. Then drove about another 7 miles smoothly. Perhaps the battery being low was a problem--but it didn't seem low enough to slow the starter. It started before I put in the fresh gas."

The dealer had claimed that despite the gauge I had probably run it out of gas. But why then did it not start, not start, start without fresh gas, then start and now not start?

Anyway, my Dad eventually drove the car to me in Reno and I thought it was ok. Took my wife for a drive around the block, but when we got back she was going to take her son around the block and it would not start. It was at 1/8 of a tank, so I went and got 5 gallons of fuel and a new battery. It started once and I drove one mile. Now for 3 days it will not start. I've added another 4 gallons of fuel so there are at least 9 gallons in the tank.


I've managed to spot the wire transfers for $26,000 of the purchase price. He has cashed another check for $6,000. I've emailed and texted the dealer stating that I used to practice law in California and the contract is void because it was procured by fraud. I asked him to come get the car and refund my $6,000. He says something minor is wrong and wants to get it to a dealer and have it fixed at his expense. Not sure I want this car at all at this point but here is the email I just sent him:

To: europeanautocenter@comcast.net

I have made more unsuccessful attempts to start the car today. It is in my garage but it will not turn over. It is as if it isn't getting any gas but again, there is at least 9 gallons of premium fuel in the tank.

Pressing the buttons on the key fob to lock and unlock it is producing no response. There may be some electrical problem in addition to the starting problems and the faulty gas tank. I don't know what else may be wrong with the car. Since I left your lot, it has failed to start on several occasions, on more occasions than it has started. While you say the problem was that it was out of gas, the gauge has never shown less than 1/8 and the gas light has never come on. As you know, I replaced the battery because the one in it would not hold a charge despite being charged by my dad and I.

The car is simply not operable without a working and accurate fuel gauge even if it would start. As I explained in the text messages, I spoke to a mechanic who advised me that it is 11 hours of labor to get to the fuel tank(s). I am unwilling to go down this path with any more of my money.

I've asked you to come get the car and refund my $6,000. You may not want to hear this again but tough luck - the contract is void because it was procured by fraud.

You have said that you want to tow the car to a dealer and get it fixed and that I should accept that resolution. I would consider it if the dealer will be prepared to certify that after the repairs are done the gas gauge is fixed, that the engine and starting system are in good working condition and there are no other major problems and they guarantee their work. I want adequate assurance that I'm not taking a bad car. Also, I want my money back in my bank while you resolve any problems. If what you've said about your business is true then these conditions should be perfectly acceptable to you. If you don't want to stand behind the car then you'll need to find another buyer.

In any event, I would like to resolve this matter as soon as possible because the car is not drivable and taking up space in my garage and you have my $6,000. Please advise.


Very truly yours,

Trevor Alt





And just now I received this response:

Dear Mr. Trevor Alt,

I have to bring several things to your attention. Please review it with an open mind. Because I am very fair and firm in my position.

1) All morning I have been researching and talking to the Chevrolet dealership. I explained everything to them that you told me about the car not starting.

2) I was told, as I already knew, when the car was ran out of gas dirt from the bottom of the tank got into the fuel line and injector and it might cause this problem. To cure this problem is very simple. Fill up the tank and put a can of additive injector cleaner and drive for 200 miles and it will clean the system.

3) Second possibility. When you ran it out of gas and continued to try and start the car it interrupted communication between the computer and key. Which affected the programming In that case it will be one half hour to an hour of labor to reprogram the key. Which will take care of it if that is the problem. Cost may be from $100 to $150.

4) Third possibility which is not likely. It is the fuel pump. Which is a very easy diagnosis.

5) You mentioned the fuel gauge might not be working properly and is 11 hours to take the gas tank out. On a newer model Corvette you do need to take the gas tank out. On a newer Corvette the tachometer is in the dash cluster which can be reset or repaired.

To resolve this problem and benefit the doubt. The best solution is to send the car to the Chevrolet dealership and let them diagnose the car. They can scan everything and find the problem. If the problem is the fuel pump or anything not related to damage caused by running out of gas I will pay for it even though I sold the car as-is. If it was related to running the vehicle out of gas and reprogramming of the key is needed. Which is a small charge you will be responsible to pay for it.

I strongly believe this is fair to both of us and not only will prevent headaches but will fix the car and you will have a nice car and know it is in fair condition.

I have to remind you these very important facts. The car was sold to you AS-IS. You drove the 2013 Corvette off the show room floor in good running condition. The next day you stopped payment on your checks before even trying to put some gas in it to see if it would start. Then you told me you would remove the stop payment on the checks. After 3 days I asked you if it was ok to deposit the checks and you said it was fine. But 2 of the checks came back "payment stopped". So far I have not done anything wrong by law. These checks being returned did some hardship to my business. You talked to Dina and sent emails stating that the monies would be wired into our account the next day. No monies have been received.

You said you practiced law. In our business transaction this is what the law sees. You purchased a car and your checks were not good. And you emailed me to come and get the car. If I go get the car it will be considered a repossession because you failed to pay. I have no intention to go that way. Please don't push it and go down that road. It will not benefit either of us. Lets gently and rationally work together to resolve this problem. Believe me this is very simple to fix and at a low cost. If the car was here in less than 2 hrs I could take care of it.

You said you use to practice law. I can't believe how you don't see that everything I did, said and am trying to do is completely lawful.


Matt Matin




I guess I'm looking for some general advice as to what may be wrong with the car and how I should proceed from here.

dshamrick

You won't like my opinion but you asked so here it is.

You bought the car "as-is". That means no warranty was implied or offered. You drove it off the lot, you own it. By stopping payment, you are probably the one committing fraud which may or may not be actionable by the dealership. They don't appear to be wanting to go down that path.

These cars are notorious for problems and issues when the batteries get low or go bad. They are offering to have it towed to a local dealership to get diagnosed. If it were me, that is what I would do. At least get someone with some knowledge and tools to check any and all codes and take a look at it to at least see where it is.

It is very hard and usually a bad idea to make decisions in a vacuum and that is what you are trying to do. Without knowing what the real problem is you are demanding they take the car back and undo the deal that you agreed to. At the very least find out what is wrong with it and then make a decision.

1968swbbigblock

If your asking in the court of opinion I think the dealer is being very fair.
Get it to a dealership and let them scan the car and diagnose the issues.
Until then you are simply wasting time and pointing fingers with no knowledge.
FWIW - any modern car should not be run low on fuel.
The fuel is the coolant for your pump, you run low on fuel, stop to fill it up with gas that comes out of the ground around 60 degrees and you put a thermal shock into the pump.
That is a quick way to kill a fuel pump

billyboy47

Personally, I would give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and let them repair it at their cost. ( we all know about the lemon law so I won't even get into that ) one thing for sure, I never let my fuel get down that low if I can help it. One never knows what kind of crap is floating around in the holding tanks. The other thing, very high miles on the clock for a 013 which to me red flags would be waving like crazy. I know it was a rental car which I personally would have ran from as fast as possible. To me when you buy a rental with high mileage your taking a big risk, especially since it's a corvette. Good luck with your future endeavors.

trevoralt

Thanks for the replies.

I hear what you are saying about "as is" however I believe legally that it trumped by the fact that misrepresentations were made about the car that induced me to buy it. When a contract is procured by fraud, it is void.

I realize that this isn't a position I would prefer to argue given a choice. If I felt I could trust this man, I wouldn't withhold the full payment but I am confident that if he had all my money he would simply ignore me and I feel quite confident that he concealed material issues with the car that he knew about while telling me it was "perfect". So, I don't feel I have to give him too much credit for being "reasonable". That's like saying I should expect a car dealer to never tell the truth and I'm stuck with whatever.



I did write back to him before coming back here and this is what I wrote:




Thank you for your email.

Regarding the possibility that the car was merely out of gas - recall that while I have had the car the gas gauge has never shown less than 1/8 of a tank and the gas light has never come on. It now appears that the gas gauge is faulty (something I believe a reasonable dealer would or should have known). However, I had no reason to suspect that I could not rely upon the accuracy of the gas gauge. For this reason, if in fact the problem is that the car was ran out of gas, I accept no blame for this and put the blame instead on you. Accordingly, I am not inclined to accept expenses of this event beyond the great inconvenience that this has already caused me and my parents (who drove the car to me after it was stranded in Stockton showing 1/8 on the gas gauge).

Secondly, I did order a 15 ounce container of Red Line fuel system cleaner and added it to the tank before the second 4.5 gallons of premium I have put in it while it is stranded at my home in Sparks. I've tried to start the car about 10 times since then with no luck. If you think that it will make a difference to add more fuel on top of that 9 or so gallons that are in it, I can make another trip or two to the gas station with my 5 gallon can.

Regarding the key fob, I would think that if there was interrupted communication with the computer and key, the starter would not work but in fact it does. If it is possible that the starter would run but somehow the programming is preventing the car from turning over then I cannot rule out the possibility that the key fob should be reprogrammed. However, again if this is attributed to the car running out of gas then I submit that I cannot be held responsible for that event when you sold me a car with a faulty gas gauge.

I don't feel it is productive to argue with you about how the law applies to this transaction except to tell you that I am very confident in my legal position should we be unable to resolve this matter informally.

Honestly at this point I would prefer to have my money back and say good bye to this car and to you but I am willing to be somewhat flexible. I am willing to allow the car to be towed to a dealer for diagnosis with the understanding that you will be responsible for the cost of towing and for any repairs necessary to the fuel system, to the fuel gauge, and to the key fob. I am willing to absorb the cost of the new battery, the fuel additive, and the inconvenience of this ordeal. If and when I receive assurance from the dealer than these systems are repaired and working properly I will make sure you are paid in full.

KevinT2010

Sorry about your trouble. I would be frustrated too but I don't think you're acting rationally here.

Have a dealer diagnose the problem. It may be a relatively simple fix and you are left with a great car. If it's something bad, then you can decide any recourse, especially if it's something the seller knows about or should have known.

I think you're on shaky ground at present and the seller is being fair.

Good luck and keep us posted.

vt65

The fuel is the coolant for your pump, you run low on fuel, stop to fill it up with gas that comes out of the ground around 60 degrees and you put a thermal shock into the pump.
That is a quick way to kill a fuel pump

excellent advise, most people are not aware of that, I never let my cars get below 1/4

billyboy47

You may have a difficult time proving the dealer knew about the faulty gas gauge. jmo

EVRose

Most, if not all, dealers fill the tank before the customer leaves the lot. Was your gas gauge show full. If so I doubt there is a gauge problem. The fob has nothing to do with it if the engine cranks. The first thing I would suspect is the fuel pump relay in the underhood fuse box. They are known to sometimes be faulty in these cars. You can test it yourself by swapping that relay with another of the same type in that fuse box. This could be a $10 fix.

Bruze

I agree, I wouldn't like the miles nor the fact that it was a rental (I would not buy it for those reasons) but $32k for a '13 vert? Darn good price -- assuming it looks good.

GuyFromLeMans

OP, you mention "misrepresentations". Are they in writing?
Because if they were verbal, then it's "he said / she said" in court, and the bottom line will likely be the "As is" thingie unfortunately for you, because THAT is in writing....

Good luck.

Marcho Polo

is there a reason you kept putting 4 and 5 gallons of gas in the car? Fill the damn thing up all the way and see how long it runs on that! Keeping it below half a tank while trying to figure this out just doesn't make sense.

if you fill it up, and the battery is new, do you have any issues at all?

tennblkc6

ditto...I'm like...wth...why don't he fill it up?

Gary '09 C6

let's see...buying a used car that was a former rental agency car, from a dealer you don't know, while on a 300+ mi. road trip...

IDK, what could possibly go wrong ?

RagTop69

I've never practiced law, but I know that a used car sale, unless specifically warrantied, is most definitely as-is. Unless the dealer made some representations of the car's condition which he knew to be untrue and unless you can document those representations by something besides your own testimony, you are the one in breach of the contract by virtue of your cancellation of the checks you rendered in payment. You could possible face criminal prosecution if he chooses to press charges. While the guy will probably never teach composition English in a J.C., his letter to you is quite rational and he is making an honest offer to involve a third party expert (a Chevy dealer in Reno) to resolve the problem(s) and consummate the deal. Face it. You acted rashly in the beginning by buying a car on apparent impulse from a used car dealer over 200 miles from your home. You purchased a rental vehicle with excess mileage and you got a really good price. Just let the guy have it towed to a Chevrolet dealer (of your choice) locally and let them resolve the issue. BTW, you keep alluding to a failed gas gauge. When you added gasoline to the tank, did it register on the gauge? If so, then the car might have been run out of gas as the dealer contends and the fuel lines and/or injectors might just be fouled. Like the others have said, fill the damn thing up!

morepwr

Even when I have bought a used car that wasnt covered under the factory warranty, every dealer I have dealt with would at least give you a 30 day 1000 mile warranty. Most major dealers will offer this. I guess the factory warranty has expired? I thought it was a 3 year/50K mile but maybe they were 3/36?

trevoralt

I haven't filled it up because it won't start and I'm forced to use a 5 gallon gas can.

If you think that any situation if it's one person's word against another you have a legal stalemate then know this - judges and juries exist mostly to judge the credibility of witnesses. "As is" doesn't come into play at all until you have a valid contract. If the judge or jury believes there was fraud in the inducement there is no valid contract. As I said, it's not an argument I would prefer to be forced to make. However, I do believe that my testimony that I believed the car to be sound based on his representations would be more credible than for him to claim that he either said nothing about the car or that he told me that it had a faulty gas gauge I and I drove off with it anyway. If he had said that, I obviously wouldn't have taken it down to 1/8 of a tank.

When I was leaving the dealership I asked if I would get a full tank and he said something about I already got all out of the deal I was going to get. The gauge showed maybe 1/2 tank. However, after if "ran out" and I put just 4 gallons in it, it showed over 1/2 tank which could not be right (assuming it had been out) since the tank is 18 gallons. Since it apparently is empty when it shows 1/8 of a tank and it shows more than 1/2 a tank with only 4 gallons, I believe the gauge is inaccurate.


To Gary 09 - you have nothing valuable to contribute so why don't you just disappear? I have taken plenty of risks in my life but I'm not the dumbass you imply. I'm glad you have enough money to only buy new cars for full price from nearby dealers who you know well and trust implicitly. Lewd comment redacted

09_BSM_Z51

I start getting nervous around the 3/4 mark haha. Excellent advice though.

96GS#007

Since no one is giving you the answer you want, why are you here? You obviously know it all.

C6topless

OK before this degrades into an all out flame war, I would like to ask a few questions in an effort to help the original poster out....

1) the starting issue --- when you push the button, does it simply make a click sound ?or do you actually hear the starter whirl and try and engage?

the click and no start -- the most common cause of this is the failure of the solenoid. basically the terminal that the battery cable hooks up to overheats and melts the plastic holding the terminal in place... over time the terminal gets loose or the plastic falls away. The second less common is the purple trigger wire in the center -- the plug has been know to come loose. This is a real easy fix, all you do is drop the starter -- and have the solenoid swapped out -- about $20 and 45min of your time. to check it you do need to get under your corvette and actually try and wiggle the terminal .. if it moves, it is bad.

the whirl and no start--- can be a grounding issue or lack of fuel. will need more info from you .

2) fuel gauge -- did you ever truly have a full tank? do you have a check engine code?

the fuel sender unit in the passenger side tank tends to get fouled if you use improper gas or tend to run out your tanks. What typically happens is the gauge will read 1/2 full then suddenly drop -- you may hear a low fuel warning ding ding ding .. and then the gauge bounce back .. or stick at 0

If you have total failure -- then it could also be your fuel pump. Remember a C6 corvette has two tanks .. connected by a bridge. The passenger side drains first .. then the drivers side. Your fuel pump is in the drivers side. If you are having issues from 0 to 1/2 full .. your fuel pump is likely bad along with the sender unit. This repair is a total pain in the *** in automatics. 11 hours is average time to complete this job.

I do wish you the best and hope you can get your problems resolved.