Driving spirited with SERVICE TPMS could kill you
10-05-2016, 12:37 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Driving spirited with SERVICE TPMS could kill you
Been meaning to post this for a while. Always had Mustangs. Probably 10 of them from Fox bodies through to my last car which was a 2013 Boss 302. Loved that car but made the decision to try something new and traded towards my 2010 manual Grand Sport that had 24000 kms on it. Mixed feelings on the trade as I really miss the Boss...wish I could have kept it and also picked up the Grand Sport. First, I do love the Vette. Certainly some little annoying things that any Vette owner could complain about, but great platform to build on.
So what happened, and why this post? Well...when I picked the car up, I had about a 6 hour drive home. Few miles from the dealer I got the car from, the "service TPMS sensor" message came on. Didn't think much of it. Checked the tore pressures through display and saw it showed XXX on front right tire for pressure. Stopped at gas station, checked pressures with gauge...all good. Started car again, warning was off. Drove for a while and came back on. Then showing both front tires as "XXX" for pressure. Drove the rest of the drive home with some spirited driving and passes. But nothing crazy, and thought I felt a couple weird reactions in the car on some harder corners...but thought just getting used to the car.
Fast forward to a couple drives later when back home. Hit some back roads that I always frequent in my cars. Came at speed to a left turn and bank, dropped to second gear and felt the car make a grinding noise in front I thought and handled strange. Thought maybe tires were scrubbing or something through the turn but thought strange.
Drove up the hill and hit anther set of twisties. On my first hard left turn at about maybe 60-70kms/hr, brakes lock up in front on right side and had to lift off gas, tried braking, turning, and literally almost went off the side of the road and embankment over a cliff. Was shitting my pants. Driven lots of modified cars over the years and never had anything close to this happen to me. Drove pretty gently the rest of the way home...thinking wtf??? Oh yeah....and this whole time was with the SERVICE TPMS warning on display.
Took the car to GM service dept. Of course the SERVICE TPMS warning decided not to be on that morning. Told service advisor what happened, and pretty much made light of it and told me without the warning on...nothing they could do or check. The lack of concern considering I told him I almost went over a cliff due to the car acting crazy was disheartening.
Over the coming weeks, didn't drive the car much and had ordered up new tires...Michelin pilot super sports. Did some searches and saw a couple people post issues with active handling system braking on highways, etc, pulling the car to either side. But seemed tied to service active handling messages...not TPMS. Even people were jumping on one guy that said it happened and blamed his driving and was full of ****.
Decided to just replace all 4 TPMS sensors when I changed tires. Even though the original sensors showed sending signals when the tire place checked them. But figured intermittent problem was going on and maybe just low batteries in original sensors.
So...new tires and four new sensors later, no more Sevice TPMS warnings coming up. And was able finally to switch car to sport mode, etc...which couldn't do when warning was on. I didn't trust car at all for first few drives after my experience going into corners. But gradually took some harder corners and wasn't doing the random braking anymore. All good!!!!
I don't know what the deal is with the way the active handling system is affected when TPMS issues are present. But seems if failure and thinks one or two tires have zero pressure it something that it goes nuts. It seriously could have killed me that day.
Just wanted to get my story out and warn anyone to never ignore TPMS issues.
So what happened, and why this post? Well...when I picked the car up, I had about a 6 hour drive home. Few miles from the dealer I got the car from, the "service TPMS sensor" message came on. Didn't think much of it. Checked the tore pressures through display and saw it showed XXX on front right tire for pressure. Stopped at gas station, checked pressures with gauge...all good. Started car again, warning was off. Drove for a while and came back on. Then showing both front tires as "XXX" for pressure. Drove the rest of the drive home with some spirited driving and passes. But nothing crazy, and thought I felt a couple weird reactions in the car on some harder corners...but thought just getting used to the car.
Fast forward to a couple drives later when back home. Hit some back roads that I always frequent in my cars. Came at speed to a left turn and bank, dropped to second gear and felt the car make a grinding noise in front I thought and handled strange. Thought maybe tires were scrubbing or something through the turn but thought strange.
Drove up the hill and hit anther set of twisties. On my first hard left turn at about maybe 60-70kms/hr, brakes lock up in front on right side and had to lift off gas, tried braking, turning, and literally almost went off the side of the road and embankment over a cliff. Was shitting my pants. Driven lots of modified cars over the years and never had anything close to this happen to me. Drove pretty gently the rest of the way home...thinking wtf??? Oh yeah....and this whole time was with the SERVICE TPMS warning on display.
Took the car to GM service dept. Of course the SERVICE TPMS warning decided not to be on that morning. Told service advisor what happened, and pretty much made light of it and told me without the warning on...nothing they could do or check. The lack of concern considering I told him I almost went over a cliff due to the car acting crazy was disheartening.
Over the coming weeks, didn't drive the car much and had ordered up new tires...Michelin pilot super sports. Did some searches and saw a couple people post issues with active handling system braking on highways, etc, pulling the car to either side. But seemed tied to service active handling messages...not TPMS. Even people were jumping on one guy that said it happened and blamed his driving and was full of ****.
Decided to just replace all 4 TPMS sensors when I changed tires. Even though the original sensors showed sending signals when the tire place checked them. But figured intermittent problem was going on and maybe just low batteries in original sensors.
So...new tires and four new sensors later, no more Sevice TPMS warnings coming up. And was able finally to switch car to sport mode, etc...which couldn't do when warning was on. I didn't trust car at all for first few drives after my experience going into corners. But gradually took some harder corners and wasn't doing the random braking anymore. All good!!!!
I don't know what the deal is with the way the active handling system is affected when TPMS issues are present. But seems if failure and thinks one or two tires have zero pressure it something that it goes nuts. It seriously could have killed me that day.
Just wanted to get my story out and warn anyone to never ignore TPMS issues.
10-05-2016, 04:54 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
Thanks for sharing.
10-05-2016, 06:19 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
I think that there have been posts hear similar to your experience, and surprised (not) that the dealer had no clue of the situation that could arise from the faulty TPMS.
Sounds like you have the problem licked...
Sounds like you have the problem licked...
10-05-2016, 06:24 AM
#4
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
I'd like to read some more comments because I've not read of that having an impact like the one you had. WADR, if this was what happened, I'd think there'd be a lot more examples of what happened to you.
10-05-2016, 06:59 AM
#5
Melting Slicks
I have to say that as soon I got my car, I replaced the wheels and didn't swap the tpms sensors. 2yrs now, all kinds of driving and never experienced what you did. Don't doubt that you went through that underwear soiling experience, but maybe there is more than tpms issues. Also had the car tuned so tpms stuff doesn't affect anything, but that was some time later.
10-05-2016, 10:58 AM
#6
Melting Slicks
Sounds a lot like your Active Handling system kicked in. I don't know if the TPMS warnings are related (i.e. because your car was loosing TPMS readings, perhaps Active Handling kicks in earlier in it's efforts to assist you). I've had it trigger a few times on the street and it scares me every time.....I just freak for a moment when the car starts doing something that I'm not telling it to do.
Although the sensation is that something is grinding, what it really is is the computer applying some differential braking to one or more of the individual wheels. It is a bit scary if you have the car near any performance envelope edge.....just because for a moment or two, you're not 100% in control of the car.
Driving in Competitive Driving mode (press the center console traction control button twice to put the car into Competitive Driving mode) will dial back active handling a lot. In Competitive Driving mode if Active Handling is kicking in, you are typically over the edge and it is truly helping you avoid a spin. You can also turn all driver assist systems off (i.e. turn off all the nannies), by pressing the traction control button once and then a second time and holding it till the DIC display indicates the systems are off. You're now on your own, just make sure you have enough pavement when you run out of skill!
I autocross all the time (in either Competitive or All Off mode) and I'm very comfortable at the edge of the performance envelope in my car. That being said, I never turn the nannies off on the street. They are built into the car for a reason and they may actually be saving your butt if they kick in. You'd be surprised how far a Corvette will slide with all 4 wheels locked in a spin!
Enjoy that car and be careful out there!
Although the sensation is that something is grinding, what it really is is the computer applying some differential braking to one or more of the individual wheels. It is a bit scary if you have the car near any performance envelope edge.....just because for a moment or two, you're not 100% in control of the car.
Driving in Competitive Driving mode (press the center console traction control button twice to put the car into Competitive Driving mode) will dial back active handling a lot. In Competitive Driving mode if Active Handling is kicking in, you are typically over the edge and it is truly helping you avoid a spin. You can also turn all driver assist systems off (i.e. turn off all the nannies), by pressing the traction control button once and then a second time and holding it till the DIC display indicates the systems are off. You're now on your own, just make sure you have enough pavement when you run out of skill!
I autocross all the time (in either Competitive or All Off mode) and I'm very comfortable at the edge of the performance envelope in my car. That being said, I never turn the nannies off on the street. They are built into the car for a reason and they may actually be saving your butt if they kick in. You'd be surprised how far a Corvette will slide with all 4 wheels locked in a spin!
Enjoy that car and be careful out there!
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Naturallygassed (08-22-2017)
10-05-2016, 01:42 PM
#7
I recently found a new cause for the SERVICE TPMS message to crop up...low quality cell phone chargers.
I had a cheap 12v to USB power converter in the center console 12v jack, and was charging a cell phone with it. Cell phone was in a holder attached to the center HVAC vent / duct.
Apparently the charger & USB cord was throwing off enough stray RF interference to drown out the TPMS sensors communication to the antenna in the dashboard, to the left of the glovebox - by the emergency key fob slot.
The SERVICE TPMS message cropped up with one tire showing XX pressure. I was on the interstate, and did not stop driving. Every few minutes another tire would start showing XX pressure.
I suspected RF interference, as the cell phone was also connected via headphone jack to the car radio, as I was listening to a podcast on the phone. The sound was clear until I plugged into the USB power because the phone battery was failing. After the USB power was applied, the sound was full of static-y noise.
After leaving the interstate and getting enough power back into the phone, I stopped at the first convenient parking lot, and powered the car off & took out the 12v-USB adapter. I restarted the car and everything returned to normal - no SERVICE TPMS message, and correct tire pressures shown - possibly after driving a 100 ft or so.
Good thing that the engine ECM and BCM electronics must be shielded better than the TPMS system...but then they hopefully don't depend on RF comms to function like TPMS does.
I'd wager that a specially designed RF transmitter on the right frequencies and strength could stop the engine computer on pretty well any vehicle...welcome to the modern world, eh? But then I think I've read/heard that the EMP discharge from a nuclear warhead's explosion would kill any electronics within a certain range.
I had a cheap 12v to USB power converter in the center console 12v jack, and was charging a cell phone with it. Cell phone was in a holder attached to the center HVAC vent / duct.
Apparently the charger & USB cord was throwing off enough stray RF interference to drown out the TPMS sensors communication to the antenna in the dashboard, to the left of the glovebox - by the emergency key fob slot.
The SERVICE TPMS message cropped up with one tire showing XX pressure. I was on the interstate, and did not stop driving. Every few minutes another tire would start showing XX pressure.
I suspected RF interference, as the cell phone was also connected via headphone jack to the car radio, as I was listening to a podcast on the phone. The sound was clear until I plugged into the USB power because the phone battery was failing. After the USB power was applied, the sound was full of static-y noise.
After leaving the interstate and getting enough power back into the phone, I stopped at the first convenient parking lot, and powered the car off & took out the 12v-USB adapter. I restarted the car and everything returned to normal - no SERVICE TPMS message, and correct tire pressures shown - possibly after driving a 100 ft or so.
Good thing that the engine ECM and BCM electronics must be shielded better than the TPMS system...but then they hopefully don't depend on RF comms to function like TPMS does.
I'd wager that a specially designed RF transmitter on the right frequencies and strength could stop the engine computer on pretty well any vehicle...welcome to the modern world, eh? But then I think I've read/heard that the EMP discharge from a nuclear warhead's explosion would kill any electronics within a certain range.
Last edited by Conesmacker; 10-05-2016 at 01:43 PM.
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Naturallygassed (08-22-2017)
10-05-2016, 03:47 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
I replaced my sensors a few months back after getting fault warnings. I noticed in the owners manual it stated "if the TPM system is
malfunctioning and the DIC displays SERVICE
TIRE MONITOR, the Active Handling System will
be affected as follows:
• The Active Handling System cannot be turned
off by the driver.
• If the Active Handling System is off, it will be
turned on automatically.
• Competitive Driving Mode is unavailable.
• The Active Handling System will feel different in
aiding and maintaining directional control."
I always drove very conservatively whenever the warning came on. Based on your experience, they weren't kidding about that last point. Yikes.
malfunctioning and the DIC displays SERVICE
TIRE MONITOR, the Active Handling System will
be affected as follows:
• The Active Handling System cannot be turned
off by the driver.
• If the Active Handling System is off, it will be
turned on automatically.
• Competitive Driving Mode is unavailable.
• The Active Handling System will feel different in
aiding and maintaining directional control."
I always drove very conservatively whenever the warning came on. Based on your experience, they weren't kidding about that last point. Yikes.
10-05-2016, 05:36 PM
#9
I too have experienced this... The TPMS sensors on my front 2 wheels for my '10 GS seem to have batteries that are on their way out. When the sensors trigger the SERVICE TIRE MONITOR warning I have noticed that the active handling will intervene SUPER early when trying to push the car through a corner at 6/10ths, so I just don't drive aggressively at all when that fault is present.
10-05-2016, 05:44 PM
#10
Safety Car
I had a similar situation but it wasn't my TPMS, it was the speed sensor hub on the drivers front. Replaced it twice in a year. (luckily the 2nd time the part was under warranty).
10-05-2016, 07:24 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Definitely sounds like a dead or non-responsive TPMS sensor. If the sensor goes dead, the computer thinks the worst and assumes you have a flat, and will kick the Active Handling in. This affects a lot of road course guys who change wheels at the track and who refuse to constantly reteach the TPMS.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-defeated.html
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-defeated.html
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maustin195 (10-05-2016)
10-05-2016, 08:56 PM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
Hi Digital
Yes...was definitely active handling kicking in. But the issue is that the way the active handling kicked in due to the TPMS service warning being on. I was making a sharp left turn, and the active handling / brakes applied and tried to pull / adjust my car to go right....which was straight off the side of an embankment. Basically I think because the TPMS were showing "XXX" for either one or both front tires at the time....the active handling has no idea what to do. And consequently, almost caused me to bail off the side of the road / embankment.
Very scary...because I'm turning hard left, active handling applies the brakes and pulls me to the right...I lift off gas, pump brakes as well, then off, active handling....etc. There was basically hardly anything I could do. I just got lucky that there was enough ledge on the side of the road, and scrubbed enough speed, etc....that I avoided going over.
Yes...was definitely active handling kicking in. But the issue is that the way the active handling kicked in due to the TPMS service warning being on. I was making a sharp left turn, and the active handling / brakes applied and tried to pull / adjust my car to go right....which was straight off the side of an embankment. Basically I think because the TPMS were showing "XXX" for either one or both front tires at the time....the active handling has no idea what to do. And consequently, almost caused me to bail off the side of the road / embankment.
Very scary...because I'm turning hard left, active handling applies the brakes and pulls me to the right...I lift off gas, pump brakes as well, then off, active handling....etc. There was basically hardly anything I could do. I just got lucky that there was enough ledge on the side of the road, and scrubbed enough speed, etc....that I avoided going over.
Sounds a lot like your Active Handling system kicked in. I don't know if the TPMS warnings are related (i.e. because your car was loosing TPMS readings, perhaps Active Handling kicks in earlier in it's efforts to assist you). I've had it trigger a few times on the street and it scares me every time.....I just freak for a moment when the car starts doing something that I'm not telling it to do.
Although the sensation is that something is grinding, what it really is is the computer applying some differential braking to one or more of the individual wheels. It is a bit scary if you have the car near any performance envelope edge.....just because for a moment or two, you're not 100% in control of the car.
Driving in Competitive Driving mode (press the center console traction control button twice to put the car into Competitive Driving mode) will dial back active handling a lot. In Competitive Driving mode if Active Handling is kicking in, you are typically over the edge and it is truly helping you avoid a spin. You can also turn all driver assist systems off (i.e. turn off all the nannies), by pressing the traction control button once and then a second time and holding it till the DIC display indicates the systems are off. You're now on your own, just make sure you have enough pavement when you run out of skill!
I autocross all the time (in either Competitive or All Off mode) and I'm very comfortable at the edge of the performance envelope in my car. That being said, I never turn the nannies off on the street. They are built into the car for a reason and they may actually be saving your butt if they kick in. You'd be surprised how far a Corvette will slide with all 4 wheels locked in a spin!
Enjoy that car and be careful out there!
Although the sensation is that something is grinding, what it really is is the computer applying some differential braking to one or more of the individual wheels. It is a bit scary if you have the car near any performance envelope edge.....just because for a moment or two, you're not 100% in control of the car.
Driving in Competitive Driving mode (press the center console traction control button twice to put the car into Competitive Driving mode) will dial back active handling a lot. In Competitive Driving mode if Active Handling is kicking in, you are typically over the edge and it is truly helping you avoid a spin. You can also turn all driver assist systems off (i.e. turn off all the nannies), by pressing the traction control button once and then a second time and holding it till the DIC display indicates the systems are off. You're now on your own, just make sure you have enough pavement when you run out of skill!
I autocross all the time (in either Competitive or All Off mode) and I'm very comfortable at the edge of the performance envelope in my car. That being said, I never turn the nannies off on the street. They are built into the car for a reason and they may actually be saving your butt if they kick in. You'd be surprised how far a Corvette will slide with all 4 wheels locked in a spin!
Enjoy that car and be careful out there!
10-05-2016, 09:55 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
Hi Digital
Yes...was definitely active handling kicking in. But the issue is that the way the active handling kicked in due to the TPMS service warning being on. I was making a sharp left turn, and the active handling / brakes applied and tried to pull / adjust my car to go right....which was straight off the side of an embankment. Basically I think because the TPMS were showing "XXX" for either one or both front tires at the time....the active handling has no idea what to do. And consequently, almost caused me to bail off the side of the road / embankment.
Very scary...because I'm turning hard left, active handling applies the brakes and pulls me to the right...I lift off gas, pump brakes as well, then off, active handling....etc. There was basically hardly anything I could do. I just got lucky that there was enough ledge on the side of the road, and scrubbed enough speed, etc....that I avoided going over.
Yes...was definitely active handling kicking in. But the issue is that the way the active handling kicked in due to the TPMS service warning being on. I was making a sharp left turn, and the active handling / brakes applied and tried to pull / adjust my car to go right....which was straight off the side of an embankment. Basically I think because the TPMS were showing "XXX" for either one or both front tires at the time....the active handling has no idea what to do. And consequently, almost caused me to bail off the side of the road / embankment.
Very scary...because I'm turning hard left, active handling applies the brakes and pulls me to the right...I lift off gas, pump brakes as well, then off, active handling....etc. There was basically hardly anything I could do. I just got lucky that there was enough ledge on the side of the road, and scrubbed enough speed, etc....that I avoided going over.
And I feel for ya. "Driver Assist" is not exactly the correct term when it's assisting you towards a cliff. Hopefully the experience didn't sour you to Corvette....although I get it...this wasn't just a little annoyance.
