Is The Great American Sports Car Dead?
04-12-2019, 03:05 PM
#21
04-12-2019, 03:41 PM
#22
Race Director
It's not the same. And honestly, a dual clutch is better for bragging than anything. A modern slushbox shifts fast enough, and is a lot smoother and less expensive to operate. The PDK in the 911 worked well on track, but it was "acceptable" on the road. VW's DSG, very similar. Evo with the SST... not so good at anything, lol. With as good as the ZF 8 auto is, DCTs really are for bragging rights.
04-12-2019, 03:47 PM
#23
Race Director
Ever since the introduction of the 6th gen Camaro, I’ve been thinking this. The Camaro has become lighter, more powerful, and more track oriented just in the last decade not to mention getting much more difficult to see out of. The Camaro if it hasn’t already, is becoming the traditional Corvette. What we’re seeing now is the corvette just doing what it’s always done, and competing with cars far above its weight class, and guess what, those cars all have DCT’s by now (see Audi S series, M cars, and if you want to go there, Lambo’s and Ferrari’s as well). GM will still make that same old fun sports car, it’ll just wear a different name.
It's like if the gas station by you stopped selling premium gas, and instead switched to jet fuel, and said "well you can still buy regular, and btw it costs as much as premium used to". You're gonna go to a different gas station, not use jet fuel or downgrade to regular unless they have a monopoly on gas. GM doesnt have that luxury.
I have no interest in a mid engine corvette. I would buy a Gallardo or similar if I wanted a mid engine car. Plenty of options for that already. GM basically handed the entire Corvette market to mustang, M4, and Supra. Talk about a disaster, the young buyers GM craved are going to RUN away at this point because a legend is back, and Corvette decided to go AWOL.
04-12-2019, 03:52 PM
#24
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04-12-2019, 03:56 PM
#25
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04-12-2019, 03:58 PM
#26
The problem is, consumers dont take to being downgraded. You take a former Corvette customer and tell them they're really a Camaro customer, they say "F U I'm buying elsewhere". They may end up in a mustang or chally, but you soured the relationship with that buyer.
It's like if the gas station by you stopped selling premium gas, and instead switched to jet fuel, and said "well you can still buy regular, and btw it costs as much as premium used to". You're gonna go to a different gas station, not use jet fuel or downgrade to regular unless they have a monopoly on gas. GM doesnt have that luxury.
I have no interest in a mid engine corvette. I would buy a Gallardo or similar if I wanted a mid engine car. Plenty of options for that already. GM basically handed the entire Corvette market to mustang, M4, and Supra. Talk about a disaster, the young buyers GM craved are going to RUN away at this point because a legend is back, and Corvette decided to go AWOL.
It's like if the gas station by you stopped selling premium gas, and instead switched to jet fuel, and said "well you can still buy regular, and btw it costs as much as premium used to". You're gonna go to a different gas station, not use jet fuel or downgrade to regular unless they have a monopoly on gas. GM doesnt have that luxury.
I have no interest in a mid engine corvette. I would buy a Gallardo or similar if I wanted a mid engine car. Plenty of options for that already. GM basically handed the entire Corvette market to mustang, M4, and Supra. Talk about a disaster, the young buyers GM craved are going to RUN away at this point because a legend is back, and Corvette decided to go AWOL.
Looks like a late model C7 will be my last chance to own a Vette.
04-12-2019, 04:00 PM
#27
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St. Jude Donor '16-'17, '19
For the last 5-8 years, I've come to the realization that most of the major manufacturers have come to the conclusion (and I'll concede a correct one..) that catering to the Millenials (and each group after...) is how they will weather the economic challenges of a drastically changing economy & marketplace.
I hate being on the outside of the manufacturer's target demographic... but as a realist, I have to TRY to be pragmatic and realize how lucky I am to drive a great performance car that didn't require being in a tax bracket higher than 24%!. I'm holding on to my C6 b/c it "works" for me and THAT counts more than wishing a newer version will work for me.
I hate being on the outside of the manufacturer's target demographic... but as a realist, I have to TRY to be pragmatic and realize how lucky I am to drive a great performance car that didn't require being in a tax bracket higher than 24%!. I'm holding on to my C6 b/c it "works" for me and THAT counts more than wishing a newer version will work for me.
Last edited by OlyC6; 04-12-2019 at 04:01 PM.
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04-12-2019, 04:01 PM
#28
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Mi
You talking about the BMW made Supra with less power than its BMW twin? Talk about pissing off the faithful.
The problem is, consumers dont take to being downgraded. You take a former Corvette customer and tell them they're really a Camaro customer, they say "F U I'm buying elsewhere". They may end up in a mustang or chally, but you soured the relationship with that buyer.
It's like if the gas station by you stopped selling premium gas, and instead switched to jet fuel, and said "well you can still buy regular, and btw it costs as much as premium used to". You're gonna go to a different gas station, not use jet fuel or downgrade to regular unless they have a monopoly on gas. GM doesnt have that luxury.
I have no interest in a mid engine corvette. I would buy a Gallardo or similar if I wanted a mid engine car. Plenty of options for that already. GM basically handed the entire Corvette market to mustang, M4, and Supra. Talk about a disaster, the young buyers GM craved are going to RUN away at this point because a legend is back, and Corvette decided to go AWOL.
It's like if the gas station by you stopped selling premium gas, and instead switched to jet fuel, and said "well you can still buy regular, and btw it costs as much as premium used to". You're gonna go to a different gas station, not use jet fuel or downgrade to regular unless they have a monopoly on gas. GM doesnt have that luxury.
I have no interest in a mid engine corvette. I would buy a Gallardo or similar if I wanted a mid engine car. Plenty of options for that already. GM basically handed the entire Corvette market to mustang, M4, and Supra. Talk about a disaster, the young buyers GM craved are going to RUN away at this point because a legend is back, and Corvette decided to go AWOL.
04-12-2019, 04:04 PM
#29
I would wait and see. I think people can be somewhat alarmist with this stuff. I've tempered my expectations based off some good stuff coming out with the camaro, mustang, veloster n, miata, etc. I do hope car companies continue to cater to driving enthusiasts somewhat even though we seem to be a dying breed.
I do agree that any sportscar with no manual option is a shame. Not hating on automatics one bit, manuals just provide a better connection to the car and road I think.
Yeah Toyota basically didn't want to do anything with it so they gave the name to BMW to make a Z4 wannabe to try and bring in the Supra crowd. That car looks to be a real disappointment.
I do agree that any sportscar with no manual option is a shame. Not hating on automatics one bit, manuals just provide a better connection to the car and road I think.
Yeah Toyota basically didn't want to do anything with it so they gave the name to BMW to make a Z4 wannabe to try and bring in the Supra crowd. That car looks to be a real disappointment.
Last edited by ssg10587; 04-12-2019 at 04:05 PM.
04-12-2019, 04:30 PM
#30
Race Director
To a guy like me in my early 30s, a Supra is like a chance to relive the tuner days of the 00s but now I have the money to enjoy it. People my age will buy it with the intent of buying a cold air intake, new FMIC, turboback exhaust, tune, etc. For guys like me, it's a chance to relive your youth but with more money to have fun now. So it might have low stock hp, but people wont care, they will mod like crazy.
04-12-2019, 04:44 PM
#31
The rumor mill is Toyota has a higher output version, but even still I dont think it matters. People that buy it will WANT to spend money on mods, it brings them back to being in that scene.
To a guy like me in my early 30s, a Supra is like a chance to relive the tuner days of the 00s but now I have the money to enjoy it. People my age will buy it with the intent of buying a cold air intake, new FMIC, turboback exhaust, tune, etc. For guys like me, it's a chance to relive your youth but with more money to have fun now. So it might have low stock hp, but people wont care, they will mod like crazy.
To a guy like me in my early 30s, a Supra is like a chance to relive the tuner days of the 00s but now I have the money to enjoy it. People my age will buy it with the intent of buying a cold air intake, new FMIC, turboback exhaust, tune, etc. For guys like me, it's a chance to relive your youth but with more money to have fun now. So it might have low stock hp, but people wont care, they will mod like crazy.
Last edited by Oic0; 04-12-2019 at 04:50 PM.
04-12-2019, 04:58 PM
#32
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I don't think the new Supra engine is going to be like the old one. No way.
04-12-2019, 05:01 PM
#33
Race Director
That works when you're beefing up a mid-range car that happens to come with a stout engine (Golf GTI, Mazda 3 turbo, Cobalt SS etc...). If I'm paying $50,000 for a car it needs to already be fast. Before I bought my Vette I was planning to get a 2016 or so DSG GTI and spend maybe 3k on it to get it to 350-380 to the tire. I decided spending a couple grand more to get a slightly older Vette already making that power, but under waaaayyy less stress would be the wiser long term purchase. Why? I can beat on the Vette and still expect it to live 200,000 or more. If I beat on the GTI it would be a crapshoot. I would feel the same about getting the Supra up to 450+
I think that guys like me will definitely go for this. People assume that a Toyota will handle it fine and be reliable. Some will want 600hp or whatever, but I expect there to be a lot of cars modded yo the low 400s range and being plenty for people with no reliability issues.
04-12-2019, 05:10 PM
#34
If you're being practical and rational, sure. But practical and rational people dont buy midengine cars anyways.
I think that guys like me will definitely go for this. People assume that a Toyota will handle it fine and be reliable. Some will want 600hp or whatever, but I expect there to be a lot of cars modded yo the low 400s range and being plenty for people with no reliability issues.
I think that guys like me will definitely go for this. People assume that a Toyota will handle it fine and be reliable. Some will want 600hp or whatever, but I expect there to be a lot of cars modded yo the low 400s range and being plenty for people with no reliability issues.
04-12-2019, 07:45 PM
#35
"Is the American Sports Car Dead." Hell No!
The Corvette's still being made.
Sports Car's should have a Convertible top and manual transmission.
Corvette's still being made.
The Corvette's still being made.
Sports Car's should have a Convertible top and manual transmission.
Corvette's still being made.
04-12-2019, 11:10 PM
#36
The rumor mill is Toyota has a higher output version, but even still I dont think it matters. People that buy it will WANT to spend money on mods, it brings them back to being in that scene.
To a guy like me in my early 30s, a Supra is like a chance to relive the tuner days of the 00s but now I have the money to enjoy it. People my age will buy it with the intent of buying a cold air intake, new FMIC, turboback exhaust, tune, etc. For guys like me, it's a chance to relive your youth but with more money to have fun now. So it might have low stock hp, but people wont care, they will mod like crazy.
To a guy like me in my early 30s, a Supra is like a chance to relive the tuner days of the 00s but now I have the money to enjoy it. People my age will buy it with the intent of buying a cold air intake, new FMIC, turboback exhaust, tune, etc. For guys like me, it's a chance to relive your youth but with more money to have fun now. So it might have low stock hp, but people wont care, they will mod like crazy.
https://www.motor1.com/news/298196/t...e-explanation/
Engine and trans are both BMW and basically Z4
Last edited by ssg10587; 04-12-2019 at 11:15 PM.
04-12-2019, 11:51 PM
#37
Race Director
I have yet to see a real review. Ive seen a lot of opinion based discussions, but nothing from people who drove the thing.
The rebadge thing is overblown. It shares a chassis, an engine, and a zf transmission. The rest is different. Its like saying the Aston DB11 is a rebadged Mercedes.
I agree, it will not be like the mk4 Supra. But i think it will be more like it than anything else available right now. I am pretty hopeful, i think it will be a car that people like a lot. I could see it not being the fastest car, not putting out 1000 whp, but being.a great drivers car. I think thats whats more important, there are lots of faxt braggy cars on ale, few hood drivers cars left though.
The rebadge thing is overblown. It shares a chassis, an engine, and a zf transmission. The rest is different. Its like saying the Aston DB11 is a rebadged Mercedes.
I agree, it will not be like the mk4 Supra. But i think it will be more like it than anything else available right now. I am pretty hopeful, i think it will be a car that people like a lot. I could see it not being the fastest car, not putting out 1000 whp, but being.a great drivers car. I think thats whats more important, there are lots of faxt braggy cars on ale, few hood drivers cars left though.
04-13-2019, 12:35 AM
#38
I have yet to see a real review. Ive seen a lot of opinion based discussions, but nothing from people who drove the thing.
The rebadge thing is overblown. It shares a chassis, an engine, and a zf transmission. The rest is different. Its like saying the Aston DB11 is a rebadged Mercedes.
I agree, it will not be like the mk4 Supra. But i think it will be more like it than anything else available right now. I am pretty hopeful, i think it will be a car that people like a lot. I could see it not being the fastest car, not putting out 1000 whp, but being.a great drivers car. I think thats whats more important, there are lots of faxt braggy cars on ale, few hood drivers cars left though.
The rebadge thing is overblown. It shares a chassis, an engine, and a zf transmission. The rest is different. Its like saying the Aston DB11 is a rebadged Mercedes.
I agree, it will not be like the mk4 Supra. But i think it will be more like it than anything else available right now. I am pretty hopeful, i think it will be a car that people like a lot. I could see it not being the fastest car, not putting out 1000 whp, but being.a great drivers car. I think thats whats more important, there are lots of faxt braggy cars on ale, few hood drivers cars left though.
Last edited by Oic0; 04-13-2019 at 12:36 AM.
04-13-2019, 01:41 AM
#39
Race Director
I dont think the supra looks like the z4,... like at all. The transmission is the zf 8 speed that is used in basically every car on sale right now from the hellcat to bentley to maseratis. The suapensions are totally different, the chassis shares hardpoints but thats about it.. it has the same drivetrain, but frankly most differentials are shared nowdays anyways because theyre all made by torsen, haldex, etc. And again, toyota is developing its own engines for the car to slot above this engine.... the bmw engine is the base one, i wouldnt be surprised to see a 450hp twin turbo toyota engine after a year or two.
Toyota has shown it works well in these kimd of jointly developd cara. The 86 developed with subaru is a great car, aimed at a market that did not exist outside of internet forums. Go figure, people dont REALLY want to pay 30k plus for a car that is small and only focuses on handling.
Last edited by FAUEE; 04-13-2019 at 01:42 AM.
04-13-2019, 02:25 AM
#40
Well, gm basically did that with the midengine vette...so....
I dont think the supra looks like the z4,... like at all. The transmission is the zf 8 speed that is used in basically every car on sale right now from the hellcat to bentley to maseratis. The suapensions are totally different, the chassis shares hardpoints but thats about it.. it has the same drivetrain, but frankly most differentials are shared nowdays anyways because theyre all made by torsen, haldex, etc. And again, toyota is developing its own engines for the car to slot above this engine.... the bmw engine is the base one, i wouldnt be surprised to see a 450hp twin turbo toyota engine after a year or two.
Toyota has shown it works well in these kimd of jointly developd cara. The 86 developed with subaru is a great car, aimed at a market that did not exist outside of internet forums. Go figure, people dont REALLY want to pay 30k plus for a car that is small and only focuses on handling.
I dont think the supra looks like the z4,... like at all. The transmission is the zf 8 speed that is used in basically every car on sale right now from the hellcat to bentley to maseratis. The suapensions are totally different, the chassis shares hardpoints but thats about it.. it has the same drivetrain, but frankly most differentials are shared nowdays anyways because theyre all made by torsen, haldex, etc. And again, toyota is developing its own engines for the car to slot above this engine.... the bmw engine is the base one, i wouldnt be surprised to see a 450hp twin turbo toyota engine after a year or two.
Toyota has shown it works well in these kimd of jointly developd cara. The 86 developed with subaru is a great car, aimed at a market that did not exist outside of internet forums. Go figure, people dont REALLY want to pay 30k plus for a car that is small and only focuses on handling.
I challenge you to find one part on the Supra that's made in Japan by Toyota. The badges don't count. The thing even has BMWs infotainment in it and an interior made of BMW parts bin bits lol. I have nothing against it. I'm sure it's an OK car, I just think it's pathetic and disingenuous for Toyota to sell a BMW as their iconic / halo car.
Last edited by Oic0; 04-13-2019 at 02:30 AM.