[Z06] Viper vs Z06 thrust (hp) in the same gear..
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Viper vs Z06 thrust (hp) in the same gear..
I dyno'd my Viper last night. 439rhwp, right around the # I expected. Funny how it's advertised 5hp higher than the Z06 yet it dyno'd lower than both my Z06's. But then I know I was buying a slower car, I just wanted one with good brakes, a little different styling, and a non-removable roof.....
Here's my stock Viper SRT10 coupe dyno at ~350 miles:
I'll be honest with you, the curve surprised the hell out of me. Maybe it's just the level of grip, or the weight and the 3.07 rear end ratio, but this whole time, I thought the thing had no low end. It never spins the tires. It just goes. Maybe these Pilot Sports will actually live longer than those Eagle F1 Supercars that had pencil eraser-like longevity. The other thing that surprised me is how the horsepower curve never drops at all even before redline. I did a shift point analysyis and each shift point drops you to ~4000-4600 from redline -- still a drop in power even from the highest shift point possible. So my previous perception -- that you want to short shift the snake, was totally incorrect. This thing begs to be revved. It just doesn't *feel* like it does.
OK, back on topic. Z06 vs. Viper. The Viper feels slower. A good bit slower. At least compared to the first time you floor the Z06 when you're getting full power, before the Z06's timing retard and the massive HP loss. (BTW, we did 3 pulls on the Viper in 10 minutes and they were all within 1hp of each other).
So, I decided to plot horsepower vs. engine speed since the Viper and Z06 have identical top speeds in 4th gear, which negates the redline and gearing differences. Plotting HP vs. engine speed also has one other beautiful property: at any given speed, actual rear wheel torque (post drivetrain multiplication), i.e. *thrust*, is directly proportional to horsepower. So, forward thrust in each car is represented by the HP curve in the below curves.
There are three curves: My first Z06 (now owned by Jim Hall) which made 449rwhp (red curve). This is an average Z06 dyno, and his motor is still running strong. Then there's my second Z06, which made 468rwhp (green curve). That motor lasted 5,300 miles before it spun a rod bearing. And then there's the Viper curve (the blue curve).
As you can see the Viper bisects the average Z and the 5,300 mile one-hit-wonder in the low-midrange, before getting passed by even the average Z up top.
I think it'd be a close race if the Z06 had a passenger and the Viper didn't. It's a 300lb weight difference, plus a ~10rwhp average rwhp difference in the Z06's favor. But, as it sits, the sits, the Z06 is the faster car. As much as I'd love it if it did, torque doesn't win races.
Andi
Here's my stock Viper SRT10 coupe dyno at ~350 miles:
I'll be honest with you, the curve surprised the hell out of me. Maybe it's just the level of grip, or the weight and the 3.07 rear end ratio, but this whole time, I thought the thing had no low end. It never spins the tires. It just goes. Maybe these Pilot Sports will actually live longer than those Eagle F1 Supercars that had pencil eraser-like longevity. The other thing that surprised me is how the horsepower curve never drops at all even before redline. I did a shift point analysyis and each shift point drops you to ~4000-4600 from redline -- still a drop in power even from the highest shift point possible. So my previous perception -- that you want to short shift the snake, was totally incorrect. This thing begs to be revved. It just doesn't *feel* like it does.
OK, back on topic. Z06 vs. Viper. The Viper feels slower. A good bit slower. At least compared to the first time you floor the Z06 when you're getting full power, before the Z06's timing retard and the massive HP loss. (BTW, we did 3 pulls on the Viper in 10 minutes and they were all within 1hp of each other).
So, I decided to plot horsepower vs. engine speed since the Viper and Z06 have identical top speeds in 4th gear, which negates the redline and gearing differences. Plotting HP vs. engine speed also has one other beautiful property: at any given speed, actual rear wheel torque (post drivetrain multiplication), i.e. *thrust*, is directly proportional to horsepower. So, forward thrust in each car is represented by the HP curve in the below curves.
There are three curves: My first Z06 (now owned by Jim Hall) which made 449rwhp (red curve). This is an average Z06 dyno, and his motor is still running strong. Then there's my second Z06, which made 468rwhp (green curve). That motor lasted 5,300 miles before it spun a rod bearing. And then there's the Viper curve (the blue curve).
As you can see the Viper bisects the average Z and the 5,300 mile one-hit-wonder in the low-midrange, before getting passed by even the average Z up top.
I think it'd be a close race if the Z06 had a passenger and the Viper didn't. It's a 300lb weight difference, plus a ~10rwhp average rwhp difference in the Z06's favor. But, as it sits, the sits, the Z06 is the faster car. As much as I'd love it if it did, torque doesn't win races.
Andi
Last edited by Andi; 10-22-2006 at 03:23 PM.
#2
Le Mans Master
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Nice info Andi. My 04 Viper dynoed at 440 and 469. The #'s are very consistent. The only other thing I see is the 3:07 rear vs the 3:42 rear.The gear difference would perk the Viper up a little in the bottom.
Your comments all seam to be fair. I have always noticed the Z a touch quicker from the start. At cruising speeds the pull feels about the same.
Both a blast to drive.
Your comments all seam to be fair. I have always noticed the Z a touch quicker from the start. At cruising speeds the pull feels about the same.
Both a blast to drive.
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by QUIKAG
Blue curve is the Viper, not the red curve, Andi.
Great info, nevertheless!
Great info, nevertheless!
#5
Le Mans Master
Get your butt over to my house. I want to see the black snake in the daytime! I couldn't see it very well the other night with those flashing blue and red lights behind us.
#7
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Originally Posted by VicCaerter
you can't forget about aerodynamics either... I can't imagine the snake is sleaker than the Z. good stuff there!
#8
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by outnumbered
Must not be too bad. Top speed is 197 drag limited.The Z is 198 drag limited.
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by VicCaerter
you can't forget about aerodynamics either... I can't imagine the snake is sleaker than the Z. good stuff there!
Viper Drag: Drag area, Cd (0.39) x frontal area (19.3 sq ft): 7.5 sq ft
Z06 specs
Z06 Drag: Drag area, Cd (0.34) x frontal area (22.3 sq ft): 7.6 sq ft
-----------
Aero: it's a wash....
#10
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by Andi
I'll be honest with you, the curve surprised the hell out of me. Maybe it's just the level of grip, or the weight and the 3.07 rear end ratio, but this whole time, I thought the thing had no low end. It never spins the tires. It just goes. Maybe these Pilot Sports will actually live longer than those Eagle F1 Supercars that had pencil eraser-like longevity.
Originally Posted by outnumbered
The only other thing I see is the 3:07 rear vs the 3:42 rear.The gear difference would perk the Viper up a little in the bottom.
-Bob
#11
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Originally Posted by Mr. Lucky
Great post! Are those regular Pilot Sports or PS2's?
Actually, I think the Viper's 3.07 would have the opposite effect.
-Bob
Actually, I think the Viper's 3.07 would have the opposite effect.
-Bob
The Viper has a 3.07 ratio. Are you saying if you go to a 3.42 like the Corvette the Viper would be less quicker than it now is?
#12
Drifting
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Power Band Advantage
Good comparisons! The beauty of the Z06's higher revving powertrain is that it essentially widens the powerband. The redline (7K vs. 6K) difference translates to a 16.7% increase in available bandwidth while the gearing difference (3.42 vs. 3.07) is only 11.4%. Basically, the Z06 can support an even shorter rear axle ratio (3.58:1, if available) which will enhance acceleration further (assuming traction is not an issue, of course) while still maintaining equivalent top speeds as the Viper in every gear!
#13
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by outnumbered
The Viper has a 3.07 ratio. Are you saying if you go to a 3.42 like the Corvette the Viper would be less quicker than it now is?
I think we mean the same thing but are just saying it differently.
#14
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Originally Posted by Mr. Lucky
It's not a big deal, but I understood you to say that the 3.07 gearing in the Viper made it "perkier" in the bottom end, which I interpreted to mean as "quicker." Clearly (all other things being equal), the 3.42 would be quicker off the line, not the 3.07.
I think we mean the same thing but are just saying it differently.
I think we mean the same thing but are just saying it differently.
It's funny. There is a thread on the Viper site vs Z06. Someone thought a shifter change would get them closer to the Z06 in 1/4 mile.They obviously don't like being 2nd.
#15
I read somewhere that there is more parasitic loss in the Viper's drivetrain than the Z06, and that the motors probably put out almost identical power. Not sure how true this is, or not.
I have noticed that Vipers seem more "peppy" down low, but don't have much experience with them. I have raced a few, and they always had an advantage from a dig or very slow speeds, and I rode in an SRT-10, that seemed a bit more strong at low RPM's than mine.
Great post!
I have noticed that Vipers seem more "peppy" down low, but don't have much experience with them. I have raced a few, and they always had an advantage from a dig or very slow speeds, and I rode in an SRT-10, that seemed a bit more strong at low RPM's than mine.
Great post!
#17
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Mr. Lucky
Great post! Are those regular Pilot Sports or PS2's?
-Bob
-Bob
Regular wheel-hoppy Pilot Sport 1's in the run-flat variety.
Andi
#18
Originally Posted by outnumbered
Nice info Andi. My 04 Viper dynoed at 440 and 469. The #'s are very consistent. The only other thing I see is the 3:07 rear vs the 3:42 rear.The gear difference would perk the Viper up a little in the bottom.
Your comments all seam to be fair. I have always noticed the Z a touch quicker from the start. At cruising speeds the pull feels about the same.
Both a blast to drive.
Your comments all seam to be fair. I have always noticed the Z a touch quicker from the start. At cruising speeds the pull feels about the same.
Both a blast to drive.
#19
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by Andi
Regular wheel-hoppy Pilot Sport 1's in the run-flat variety.
Gawd, I wish the PS2's came in a wider size selection for 19s. For street tires they are awesome.
#20
Originally Posted by Mr. Lucky
I'm glad you added that adjective.
Gawd, I wish the PS2's came in a wider size selection for 19s. For street tires they are awesome.
Gawd, I wish the PS2's came in a wider size selection for 19s. For street tires they are awesome.