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GM Dealer Hydrolocked my motor doing an Oil Change

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Old 10-16-2008, 08:40 PM   #1
TFAST4U
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Default GM Dealer Hydrolocked my motor doing an Oil Change

Well I'm back. I'm the one that had a motor replaced last year for a failed oil pump Here is the link:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...ump+oil+failed


So the new 2007 C6 Z06 motor has been great........that is untill today.................

So I take the C6 Z06 in to a dealer in San Diego today 10-16-08. I just moved from FL to San Diego 2 weeks ago. About a 2600 mile trip. So I wanted to have the oil changed.

So I'm at the GM dealer here in San Diego for 2 hours and I'm like where is my car? I go and talk to the sevice writer and he says " it seems as if your car is leaking oil " I say " why is my car leaking oil? It had a NEW motor put in last year and I just drove 2600 miles from Florida to here in San Diego " The service writer was vary nice and alowed me to go and look for my self.

So I walk back to my C6 Z06 and I can not beleave what I am seeing. There is oil EVERY WHERE. So I take a closer look and see the " Master Corvette Tech " has taken the Sealed oil plug off the valve cover and I say to him " what are you doing, he says " what do you mean " I say " why would you put oil in the motor when you are to put the oil in the Dry Sump container " This Tech flys off the handal and says " I know what I'm doing I have done 100's of oil changes on these cars and I alway put in 6.6 qt in the motor on the valve cover " I'm like " look you have no idea what you have done or caused to my motor. You can't put oil in at the sealed plug on the valve cover, it's a dry sump motor or you will hydro lock the motor and pound a flat spot on the bearings. YOU JUST TRASHED MY MOTOR by starting the motor with 6.6 qt in the WRONG place. You NEVER put oil in a motor that has a dry sump, henc " DRY SUMP ". Than this " Tech " says..........and I can't beleav my ears " I can only fit 1.5 qt in the sump container. " I'm like " what are you talking about it can hold up to 10 qts.............. "

At this point I have the service writer and the service manager on line with GM, and low and behold I'm right the tech is wrong and the worst part about is the service tech turned the motor over with the 6.5 qt in the top part of the motor henc why all the oil is every where, and I mean every where. Than the tech says i will show you. He than puts 8 qt of oil in the Dry sump container and trys to turn over the motor but cant because it's HYDRO LOCKED............................

So now I'm just besides my self. So I call GM, file a complaint, thay give a case file number. I said to the dealer in a vary nice way that under no conditions will I take my 2006 C6 Z06 unless thay put a new motor in the car. Man I just had a motor put in last year because of a well documented failed oil pump.

Here is a write up I found on the forum on how to change your oil for a C6 Z06. I take no credit, but what a nice write up. To bad the dealer can't follow these directions :

Chris



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The dry sump system.

Benefits of dry sump oil system?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...5&forum_id=100

From GM Tech:
http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/iss...aug05e.html#f7

The Corvette Z06’s LS7 engine (fig. 1) has a dry sump oiling system designed to keep the engine fully lubricated during the high cornering loads the Corvette Z06 is capable of producing. Ths LS7’s dry sump system was developed and tested on racetracks in the U.S. and Europe, including Germany’s famed Nürburgring. And while dry sump oiling is common in racing cars, the Corvette Z06 is one of just a handful of production vehicles -- and the only production Corvette -- to incorporate such a high-performance oiling system.

What is a Dry Sump Oiling System?
Most automotive engines use a wet sump sytem, in which all of the engine oil is stored inside the crankcase in the oil pan. In a dry sump oiling system (fig.2), engine oil is stored in a reservoir external to the engine, so the crankcase contains only a minimal amount of oil at all times.

What are the Advantages of a Dry Sump System?
In an engine with a conventional wet sump oil pan, the oil can slosh away from the oil pump pickup tube during high dynamic maneuvers like cornering, braking and accelerating. This starves the engine of oil, causing bearing damage or catastrophic engine failure.

The dry sump system stores engine oil in a tall and narrow oil reservoir (fig. 3). This shape prevents oil from sloshing away from, or uncovering, the oil pickup, even under extremely high dynamic maneuvers. The dry sump system enables increases to the dynamic capabilities of the vehicle, which is why racing cars and exotic sports cars use this type of oil system.

Additionally, oil aeration is lower in a dry sump system, because the oil spends less time in the presence of the crankcase windage. Oil delivered to the bearings is typically superior to that of a wet sump system.

Finally, without the need for a conventional sump, the engine can be placed lower in the vehicle, effectively lowering the center of gravity of the vehicle.

How Does a Dry Sump System Work?
In the LS7 engine, two oil pump sets (scavenge pump and supply pump) are located in the same housing on the nose of the crankshaft. The location is common with the oil pump in other small block engines.

The scavenge pump removes engine oil and air from the sump and pumps both to an external reservoir for conditioning and storage (fig. 4).

The oil is directed to the top of the reservoir, where it is allowed to spill onto a spiral-shaped baffle. Crankcase gases and air are separated from the oil and are returned by the PCV system to the engine, where they are burned. The deaerated and conditioned oil collects in the bottom of the reservoir, ready for use.

The supply pump (fig. 5) draws the conditioned oil from the reservoir, pressurizes it, and feeds it to the engine by way of the oil filter and oil cooler. After the oil passes through the engine, it again flows into the sump to be returned by the scavenge pump to the reservoir once again.

Checking the Oil Level
The engine must be warmed up. Cold oil will not give a correct oil level reading.

After the engine is warmed up to at least 175°F (80°C), shut off the engine. Checking the oil with the engine running will result in an incorrect reading.

Wait for 5 minutes (but not more than 20 minutes), to allow the oil to drain and settle.

Pull the dipstick with the yellow handle (fig. 6) from the reservoir, and clean it with a lint-free cloth. Then push it back in all the way until it stops. Remove it again, keeping the tip down, and note the oil level on the crosshatched area.

An oil level within the crosshatched area is normal. If the level is below the crosshatched area, add 1 quart (0.96 L) of 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic oil through the black oil reservoir fill cap (fig. 6) and take another reading.

TIP: Do not overfill the reservoir, as this may result in excessive oil consumption. Oil levels above the crosshatched area may degrade lubrication system performance.

Oil Change Procedure
Remove the two drain plugs from the engine oil pan (fig. 7). One is located on the left side of the oil pan near the oil filter. This plug drains the small amount of residual oil from the engine oil pan, approximately 1 quart (0.96 L). The other drain plug is located on the front of the oil pan. This plug drains the external reservoir and hose assembly. Also remove the engine oil filter.

Once the oil has been drained from the engine and reservoir, replace the engine oil filter with a new PF48 oil filter and tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).

Replace both oil drain plugs and tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).

Fill the oil through the oil fill cap in the top of the dry sump reservoir. The total service fill, with a dry filter, is 8 quarts (7.57 L) of 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic engine oil.

Replace the oil fill cap and start the engine. Let it run at idle for at least 15 seconds to circulate the fresh engine oil through the lubrication system. (This is similar to running an engine after a radiator fill, to purge air from the system.)

Check the oil level according to the instructions above. The oil change is now complete.

TIP: The owner’s manual may contain a slightly different procedure, which calls for filling 7 quarts, running the engine then shutting off, and finally filling 1 additional quart. This procedure may be used, although it is not necessary.

TIP: There is a cap on the right valve cover under the decorative cover. Attempting to remove this cap can break the retaining tabs, requiring removal of the valve cover to retrieve broken pieces. Under no circumstances should you attempt to fill the engine oil system through this cap.

- Thanks to Dan Hommes and Ron Minoletti

How to change your oil:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1552824964

This is from the November issue of GM tech link

"The August 2005 issue of TechLink contained imprecise information about changing engine oil in the Corvette Z06.

After draining the oil from both drain plug locations, you should “Reinstall both oil drain plugs and tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).” (fig. 5)

TIP: It is NOT necessary to install replacement plugs"



BELOW IS THE AUGUST INFO

"Oil Change Procedure
Remove the two drain plugs from the engine oil pan (fig. 7). One is located on the left side of the oil pan near the oil filter. This plug drains the small amount of residual oil from the engine oil pan, approximately 1 quart (0.96 L). The other drain plug is located on the front of the oil pan. This plug drains the external reservoir and hose assembly. Also remove the engine oil filter.

Once the oil has been drained from the engine and reservoir, replace the engine oil filter with a new PF48 oil filter and tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).

Replace both oil drain plugs and tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).

Fill the oil through the oil fill cap in the top of the dry sump reservoir. The total service fill, with a dry filter, is 8 quarts (7.57 L) of 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic engine oil.

Replace the oil fill cap and start the engine. Let it run at idle for at least 15 seconds to circulate the fresh engine oil through the lubrication system. (This is similar to running an engine after a radiator fill, to purge air from the system.)

Check the oil level according to the instructions above. The oil change is now complete.

TIP: The owner’s manual may contain a slightly different procedure, which calls for filling 7 quarts, running the engine then shutting off, and finally filling 1 additional quart. This procedure may be used, although it is not necessary.

TIP: There is a cap on the right valve cover under the decorative cover. Attempting to remove this cap can break the retaining tabs, requiring removal of the valve cover to retrieve broken pieces. Under no circumstances should you attempt to fill the engine oil system through this cap."

Oil filter Part #s:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1552933054
From Bob Procter
Fram PH2849A
Purolator L20073
Wix 51083

Engine Oil Check-FOLLOW THIS PROCEDURE OR ELSE!

Checking your oil properly will prevent over-filling your dry sump system.

Do NOT check your oil while the engine is running.

Do NOT check your oil with the engine cold.

Here is the proper procedure: Check out the other oil level and oil change procedures on this technical site:

Jim Hall



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Old 10-16-2008, 08:50 PM   #2
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wow...so have you heard from GM yet?
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:53 PM   #3
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wow...so have you heard from GM yet?
NO not yet but said thay would call me befor the day.

The dealer said thay would also call me befor the end of the day............no call eather.

As far as I'm consered I'm NOT taking the car back unless there is a new motor. And I'm talking about a brand new off the shelf 2008 motor. I will have it no other way. The car can sit there till the end of time.

Chris
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:58 PM   #4
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I'm trying to understand how this would hydrolock the engine. Can you explain?

Hope they fix it to your satisfaction.
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:58 PM   #5
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Bob Stall Chevrolet?
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:01 PM   #6
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damn.... i feel for you...

what a retard...
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:02 PM   #7
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And what about this:

TIP: There is a cap on the right valve cover under the decorative cover. Attempting to remove this cap can break the retaining tabs, requiring removal of the valve cover to retrieve broken pieces. Under no circumstances should you attempt to fill the engine oil system through this cap."

Unreal....................So where are the " Retaining Tabs ". Some where lost in the motor. I'm going to be cool but I know this is going to drag out for months.

On top of this hydrolock caused by the tech not doing the oil change according to GM protocall, when the motor is replaced the whoul and I mean whoul oiling system out side of the motor will have to be replaced.

Dry sump container
Oil lines
Oil cooler

The reason for this is the " Retaining Tabs " could be stuck in with what ever broken debre and could cause the new motor to fail.

I had all this stuff replaced last time the motor was replaced as there was debre in the oil and the dealer did not want to take a chance.

What was this tech thinking?

Chris
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:04 PM   #8
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Wow! Talk about bad luck!
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamin View Post
Bob Stall Chevrolet?
No

Sent you a PM

Chris
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C6 Z06 View Post
I'm trying to understand how this would hydrolock the engine. Can you explain?

Hope they fix it to your satisfaction.
Here is Wikipedia's answer to you question:

Hydrolock
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Hydrolock (short for either hydraulic lock or hydrostatic lock) is a condition of an internal combustion engine in which an incompressible liquid has been introduced into its cylinder(s), resulting in the immobilization of the engine's pistons. The liquid causing this malfunction is often water, hence the prefix "hydro-". Hydrolock occurs in a 4-stroke engine when liquid is sucked into the engine's cylinder(s) during the intake stroke and, due to the incompressibility of the liquid, makes the compression stroke impossible. This, in turn, prevents the entire engine from turning, and can cause significant engine damage if one attempts to forcibly turn over or start the engine. Typically, connecting rods will be bent, making the engine uneconomical to repair. Confer flooded engine and vapor lock, two unrelated conditions which could easily be confused with hydrolock.



The long and short is when you fill up a dry sump motor with oil in the valve cover sealed plug area, you going to end up filling up your cylenders with oil. Henc the above disertation on what will happen if you put oil in you motor instead of the Dry Sump container.

I hope that answers you question. I'm learning as I go here so forgive me for the spelling and such

Chris
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:11 PM   #11
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That is just unbelievable!!!

I had the oil changed by a Chevy dealer on my way back from our Museum pickup. I stood and watched them do it just to be certain they did it right. Of course, I had checked out this dealership with the local Corvette Club prior. There were no problems, and their oil change guys knew exactly what to do.

I prefer to change the oil myself, and have been doing so for 30 years or so. The biggest challenge is getting the Zs up in the air.

Otherwise, its a piece of cake.

Really sorry for your plight. I know I would be really angry. I guess, that is why we have attorneys.

Hope it all turns out well for you and you get back on the road soon.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Lead Foot 66 View Post
That is just unbelievable!!!

I had the oil changed by a Chevy dealer on my way back from our Museum pickup. I stood and watched them do it just to be certain they did it right. Of course, I had checked out this dealership with the local Corvette Club prior. There were no problems, and their oil change guys knew exactly what to do.

I prefer to change the oil myself, and have been doing so for 30 years or so. The biggest challenge is getting the Zs up in the air.

Otherwise, its a piece of cake.

Really sorry for your plight. I know I would be really angry. I guess, that is why we have attorneys.

Hope it all turns out well for you and you get back on the road soon.
Thanks. I would chang my oil as I do on most of the cars we have. But since the last motor. I documnet every thing. So the dealer has always changed the oil on the C6 Z06. The part that stinks here is I'm new to San Diego and rolled the dice on a " Vary well know Dealer " . I wont as of today post who thay are because I want to do the honerabl thing and that is to give them untill next week.

No matter what I will get a new motor. Even if I have to call Paul Graham to get it done. Like I said I will give the dealer the oppertunity to work with GM with my case file.

Ya know it just hit me. If they can't do an oil change how can I trust the dealer to put in a motor?

Chris
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:43 PM   #13
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Chris, sorry but I still don't see the hydrolock part of it. There is of course, during normal operation, alot of oil in the vave cover where they poured the oil in. Why then does this oil not wind up in the combustion chamber?
I'm not trying to be hard headed but I still don't understand how it would hydrolock. Anybody else, either way??

Again, I wish you good luck on the repair. I would be very upset myself.

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Old 10-16-2008, 09:48 PM   #14
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Nice master corvette tech there....
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C6 Z06 View Post
Chris, sorry but I still don't see the hydrolock part of it. There is of course, during normal operation, alot of oil in the vave cover where they poured the oil in. Why then does this oil not wind up in the combustion chamber?
I'm not trying to be hard headed but I still don't understand how it would hydrolock. Anybody else, either way??

Again, I wish you good luck on the repair. I would be very upset myself.


I hope some one jumps in too, as I'm guessing at this point but if you read below it will give you a better understanding on how a " Dry Sump " works. I beleave it is a " closed system ". But what do I know. I'm learning just like you Sir

Pleass read:

" The LS7's oil pump is really two pumps in one: a 0.95ci pump for supply (the same spec as the LS2) and a 1.41ci rotor for oil scavenging. The scavenge pump needs more capacity because it will consequently pick up air along with oil. "

And another good read about the oiling system

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec..._build_center/

" At Station five the LS7 gets its crank sprocket. In order to avoid damaging the thrust bearing by hitting the sprocket onto the crank, GM uses 2000-psi of hydraulic pressure to install the sprocket onto the crank. Next the motor gets the cam sprocket, timing chain and the nylon chain dampener. As we talked about in our April LS7 engine story the LS7 uses a specific duel impeller pump. It is actually two pumps in one and handles engine oiling and scavenging duties. The impeller notches have to be lined up, again they have a custom tool for this that you can see in the picture. "

and

" Here you can see the fixture plate that is used to make sure the oil pump and front cover are both perfectly even with the bottom of the block. You can also see one of the many nylon bolt-order templates that are used throughout the build at different stations. After every operation an orange mark is made on either the part or on a specific location on the outside of the block. It's just one more way to double check that nothing is missed. Next up the dry-sump oil pan is installed. The pan is an engineering marvel and makes for a very low-profile package. Installing this in a g-Machine should not be very hard. However due to the way the pan is made there will be no notching of the pan possible. The LS7 also uses a new internal bypass oil filter (PN PF48). "

and

I can say I can NOT take credit for this next info I have. It is from another web page and I cut and paist it here on this thread. Great info and alot more info than above. Who ever did the reserch did a good job. Thanks

Quote from another forum:

" LS7 Dry Sump System revealed:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See the following pics:

External Oil Tank:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024314

Internal Oil Tank:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024313

Oil Pan Right Side:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024310

Oil Pan Left Side:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024308

Oil Pump External:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024307

Oil Pump Internal:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024311

Complete System: (less Engine Oil Cooler)
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?024295

The system is driven by single, but instead; 2 stage, Gerotor pump off the front crankshaft snout as in the LS1/LS2/LS6. This is accomplished with 2 seperate internal channels which are evident on the pump face plates. You can see the keyed drives on the External Pump shot and can see both internal gerotor mechanisms in the Internal View which are regulated by a single pressure spring. Notice how the single large oval sump inlet is on the left side (driver side) of the pump and the reservoir inlet/outlet is on the right side (pass. side).

Notice that the reservoir inlet and outlet bosses are both at the bottom (bottom right side of pan and bottom of reservoir). The inlet is not at the top and entering on the side of the reservoir as most dry sump tanks to swirl and deair the oil. But you can see the inlet pipe rises to the top center of the tank internally and "spills" the oil at the top center. You can also see deairing baffles and seperators in the tank lid. The cylinder volume of oil fluid will feed the tank outlet and gravity/pressure feed to the pump inlet boss.

I am assuming that the pump outlet that feeds to the pan outlet will feed the engine oil cooler and then back to the reservoir inlet. I am also assuming that the internal pump outlet will feed to the oil filter and then the engine priority main gallery. Notice that the Filter boss is in the same position as previous LS Gen IV engines. "
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:13 PM   #16
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Hi Chris:
Sorry to hear about your engine. Like C6 Z06, I'm having a hard time seeing
how oil in the valve cover could wind up in the combustion chamber. The oil
would drain into the crankcase just like it would during normal operation. Now
if the oil filled up the crankcase to the point the pistons couldn't move up and down,
that might do it. But wouldnt the oil flow back into the dry sump reservoir?
Anybody have an explanation?
Good luck with the repair,
Stacey
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C6 Z06 View Post
Chris, sorry but I still don't see the hydrolock part of it.
Hydrolock is when you have incombustible fluid in the combustion chamber. Your motor probably just locked up due to lack of oil for the bearings/oil pump. It does suck that you had problems with an oil change at the dealership, best of luck getting it fixed.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:15 PM   #18
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This is an awesome story! I can't wait to share it with my car buddies.
Kinda makes the rest of us appreciate getting our fast-food order screwed-up at the drive-thru.

I suppose we should be thankful this 'master tech' flunked out of medical school...
"No! The I.V. doesn't go in his ear!"
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:24 PM   #19
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I wonder if the tech removed both drain plugs? Either way adding oil through the valve cover will fill the bottom end of the motor, it will not directly fill the combustion chambers. If enough oil is in the bottom of the LS7 oil pan I guess that could play havoc with the spinning crank, rods and pistons trying to move?

Tamulinas2 - oil will only get back to the reservoir when the engine is running operating the scavenge pump.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TFAST4U View Post
You NEVER put oil in a motor that has a dry sump, henc " DRY SUMP ". Than this " Tech " says..........and I can't beleav my ears " I can only fit 1.5 qt in the sump container. " I'm like " what are you talking about it can hold up to 10 qts.............. "
I bet the reservoir was never drained! If the reservoir was never drained and 6.5 qts was added to the engine that would be interesting when started.

Last edited by GMautotech; 10-16-2008 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamulinas2 View Post
Hi Chris:
Sorry to hear about your engine. Like C6 Z06, I'm having a hard time seeing
how oil in the valve cover could wind up in the combustion chamber. The oil
would drain into the crankcase just like it would during normal operation. Now
if the oil filled up the crankcase to the point the pistons couldn't move up and down,
that might do it. But wouldnt the oil flow back into the dry sump reservoir?
Anybody have an explanation?
Good luck with the repair,
Stacey
Stacey,


Let say the tech did the following:

He left All the old oil in the dry sump.

He did drain the oil from the pan but that would only be 1.5 qt only being draind. leaving 6 or 6.5 in the tank.

Than stating he could only fit 1.5 in the dry sump he maxed out the Oil Tank.

Than he broke off the sealed plug with vice grips, the tabes fall into the motor.

Than he did poor 6.5 qt into the vavle cover hole.

End result is now the motor has 10 qt in the oil tank and 6.5 in the motor = 16.5 qt's total.

Maybe this is why the oil shot out the dipstick hole all over the motor and hydrolocked because there was no where for the oil to go but the cylenders.

This is probably what happed. At that point the motor locks up because you can not compress a liquid and this inturn lockes the motor up and sending a shock wave from the cylender to the piston, to the conecting rod, and than finaly making a flat spot on the crank bearings and bending the titaineum conecting rods.

I would bet he pulled one oil plug ONLY for the pan........than...........walked away to fix another car, thinking the oil was drained..........and we all know the rest as I listed above.

Thanks. I think we found out what caused this. Now all thay have to do is replace the motor

Chris

Last edited by TFAST4U; 10-16-2008 at 10:31 PM.
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  • [Z06] GM Dealer Hydrolocked my motor doing an Oil Change
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