[Z06] Mobil1 0w40
01-24-2012, 01:09 AM
#41
http://www.corvetteforum.de/board.php?boardid=94&sid=
01-24-2012, 09:56 AM
#42
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Been all over the German forum and still can't nail it down.
http://www.corvetteforum.de/board.php?boardid=94&sid=
http://www.corvetteforum.de/board.php?boardid=94&sid=
I'm trying UK assuming that their car are also EURO and I don't speak any other languages.One UK fellow confirms that the 0w40 sticker used to be on EURO spec Vettes. But so far no smoking gun. Amazing that it can be this hard to find
DH
01-24-2012, 12:42 PM
#43
Howie!
I posted the picture of the Mobil 1 0W40 sticker on the door pillar the last time - here it is again!
I bought my car new in 2007 from an authorised GM dealer in the UK - it is an official 'Euro spec' car, supplied and warranted by GM, for road use here in the UK.
The Mobil 1 0w40 sticker was not placed on the door pillar by me, or by the Dealership - it was placed on the door pillar of the car by GM Europe's official Distributors/Importers, before the car was supplied to the dealership for sale.
I specifically asked the Dealership's Service Department at the point of sale, whether Mobil 1 0w40 was suitable for my car.
They told me it was, and pointed to the sticker on the door pillar as evidence of GM's approval of that particular product.
I have checked out the Maintenance/Warranty documentation supplied new with the car, and there is no specific indication as such, contained in it, naming and recommending, in black and white, Mobil 1 0W40.
There are only two general recommendations:-
1- relating to the practical performance standard of the oil, with regard to API (American petroleum Institute), and/or ACEA( European Car Manufacturers Association) and their standards.
2 - relating to oil viscosities appropriate for use, with regard to the ambient temperature of the operational arena.
These recommendations are printed within the Warranty Document, so you can happily conclude, that, provided you adhere to these recommendations, then GM is happy to warranty your vehicle for the appropriate term, and there is no need to be concerned that they might choose to argue about the type of oil used, in any claim arising concerning the power unit.
The UK warranty period is 36 months or 100,000 kms[62,5000miles)
Regarding the practical performance standard of the oil used, you can see that the first recommendation simply states that outside the USA/Canada, then it is OK to use a product which conforms to the API SL or ACEA A3-02 requirement
http://gopurepower.com/site/infolibrary/pdf/api.pdf
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pu...ev%20Sep05.pdf
Regarding the appropriate viscosity, you can see the Manual states that though 5W30 is best for the car, there are in fact a number of viscosities which GM deem acceptable under general circumstances of use, even in a temperate climate zone.
I know it’s difficult for Stateside guys to imagine, but Corvettes in general, and Euro spec Corvette Z06s in particular, are as rare as hen’s teeth here in the UK.
To compound GM’s woes, their main European Imported recently ceased trading, and there is now only one official Corvette dealership here serving the whole of the UK - Bauer Millett in Manchester.
In general, for GM to be able to sell the Corvette over here, the model had firstly to be submitted for a General Type Approval test, to confirm that it was suitable for sale in the European Union.
Then of course, each individual car has to be tested subsequently to make sure it conforms to these standards.
Corvettes arrive over here in two different ways.
Firstly there are those cars which are imported directly from the USA, by individuals/ companies under a personal import scheme.
These are US market cars and come with GM Stateside documentation, regarding maintenance etc .
These don't have the Mobil1 0W40 sticker on the door pillar.
Then there are the Euro spec cars, which are official GM imports sold by GM Europe - these cars can be considerably more expensive that the Stateside Personal Imports for a number of reasons - dealerships, margins, warranties etc.
These do have the Mobil1 0w40 sticker on the door pillar.
The thing is, that Corvettes, either of the Euro spec or Personal Import kind, are not produced for the UK home market as such - they are USA market cars which are ‘doctored up’ after they get here - to meet a particular European spec.
The steering wheel is still in the wrong place for us here - that being said, the ‘doctoring up’ is mostly small stuff like headlights/taillights, washers etc - the basic mechanics of the car, in particular the power unit, are identical with the most of the USA home main market cars[ I’m not sure whether the California Corvettes are different spec from general USA cars]
With my Euro spec Z06, there is no visual recommendation for Mobil 0w40 other than the sticker on the door pillar, and if I were to hazard a guess as to why that is, I would simply put it down to the fact -- that it’s simply not necessary!
In fact the door pillar sticker, has probably much more to do with marketing than mechanics!
Mobil 1 0w40 has always been marketed in UK/Europe, as the performance brand for the enthusiast - it’s the stuff that all the boys buy for their hot Golf etc.
As you can see from this advert, Mobil was very keen on absorbing the kudos of Corvette Racing into their brand, to construct a link to Mobil 1 0w40
http://www.mobil1.lt/galery/_mobil1/...tte_mobil1.pdf
If Mobil 1 of any description is going into the sumps of Corvettes ex works, then you can reckon there are all sorts of associated, behind the door deals and marketing payoffs, attached with that fact, bearing in mind the volume of business involved!
As you can see from the Manual data, the only stipulations regarding choice of oil, are in terms of API spec and viscosity.
There are as we all know, a number of reputable manufacturers in the market apart from Mobil who produce excellent API SL grade products.
As far as Viscosity Grade goes, well it says that 5w30 is best, but there are other choices which are equally acceptable depending upon conditions of use.
I use Mobil 1 0w40 in my Corvette and have no qualms whatsoever in doing so because:-
1 - there is an official GM sticker on my door pillar telling me it’s OK for my car.
2 - it fully complies with requirements of the GM specs, published in the Maintenance/Warranty document which accompanied my car.
3 - I have used Mobil1 0w40 in all my cars, for years back, and have never had any circumstance in any vehicle, arising from its use, which would give me any cause for concern regarding its suitability for purpose.
Hope this helps!
Cheers!
I posted the picture of the Mobil 1 0W40 sticker on the door pillar the last time - here it is again!
I bought my car new in 2007 from an authorised GM dealer in the UK - it is an official 'Euro spec' car, supplied and warranted by GM, for road use here in the UK.
The Mobil 1 0w40 sticker was not placed on the door pillar by me, or by the Dealership - it was placed on the door pillar of the car by GM Europe's official Distributors/Importers, before the car was supplied to the dealership for sale.
I specifically asked the Dealership's Service Department at the point of sale, whether Mobil 1 0w40 was suitable for my car.
They told me it was, and pointed to the sticker on the door pillar as evidence of GM's approval of that particular product.
I have checked out the Maintenance/Warranty documentation supplied new with the car, and there is no specific indication as such, contained in it, naming and recommending, in black and white, Mobil 1 0W40.
There are only two general recommendations:-
1- relating to the practical performance standard of the oil, with regard to API (American petroleum Institute), and/or ACEA( European Car Manufacturers Association) and their standards.
2 - relating to oil viscosities appropriate for use, with regard to the ambient temperature of the operational arena.
These recommendations are printed within the Warranty Document, so you can happily conclude, that, provided you adhere to these recommendations, then GM is happy to warranty your vehicle for the appropriate term, and there is no need to be concerned that they might choose to argue about the type of oil used, in any claim arising concerning the power unit.
The UK warranty period is 36 months or 100,000 kms[62,5000miles)
Regarding the practical performance standard of the oil used, you can see that the first recommendation simply states that outside the USA/Canada, then it is OK to use a product which conforms to the API SL or ACEA A3-02 requirement
http://gopurepower.com/site/infolibrary/pdf/api.pdf
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pu...ev%20Sep05.pdf
Regarding the appropriate viscosity, you can see the Manual states that though 5W30 is best for the car, there are in fact a number of viscosities which GM deem acceptable under general circumstances of use, even in a temperate climate zone.
I know it’s difficult for Stateside guys to imagine, but Corvettes in general, and Euro spec Corvette Z06s in particular, are as rare as hen’s teeth here in the UK.
To compound GM’s woes, their main European Imported recently ceased trading, and there is now only one official Corvette dealership here serving the whole of the UK - Bauer Millett in Manchester.
In general, for GM to be able to sell the Corvette over here, the model had firstly to be submitted for a General Type Approval test, to confirm that it was suitable for sale in the European Union.
Then of course, each individual car has to be tested subsequently to make sure it conforms to these standards.
Corvettes arrive over here in two different ways.
Firstly there are those cars which are imported directly from the USA, by individuals/ companies under a personal import scheme.
These are US market cars and come with GM Stateside documentation, regarding maintenance etc .
These don't have the Mobil1 0W40 sticker on the door pillar.
Then there are the Euro spec cars, which are official GM imports sold by GM Europe - these cars can be considerably more expensive that the Stateside Personal Imports for a number of reasons - dealerships, margins, warranties etc.
These do have the Mobil1 0w40 sticker on the door pillar.
The thing is, that Corvettes, either of the Euro spec or Personal Import kind, are not produced for the UK home market as such - they are USA market cars which are ‘doctored up’ after they get here - to meet a particular European spec.
The steering wheel is still in the wrong place for us here - that being said, the ‘doctoring up’ is mostly small stuff like headlights/taillights, washers etc - the basic mechanics of the car, in particular the power unit, are identical with the most of the USA home main market cars[ I’m not sure whether the California Corvettes are different spec from general USA cars]
With my Euro spec Z06, there is no visual recommendation for Mobil 0w40 other than the sticker on the door pillar, and if I were to hazard a guess as to why that is, I would simply put it down to the fact -- that it’s simply not necessary!
In fact the door pillar sticker, has probably much more to do with marketing than mechanics!
Mobil 1 0w40 has always been marketed in UK/Europe, as the performance brand for the enthusiast - it’s the stuff that all the boys buy for their hot Golf etc.
As you can see from this advert, Mobil was very keen on absorbing the kudos of Corvette Racing into their brand, to construct a link to Mobil 1 0w40
http://www.mobil1.lt/galery/_mobil1/...tte_mobil1.pdf
If Mobil 1 of any description is going into the sumps of Corvettes ex works, then you can reckon there are all sorts of associated, behind the door deals and marketing payoffs, attached with that fact, bearing in mind the volume of business involved!
As you can see from the Manual data, the only stipulations regarding choice of oil, are in terms of API spec and viscosity.
There are as we all know, a number of reputable manufacturers in the market apart from Mobil who produce excellent API SL grade products.
As far as Viscosity Grade goes, well it says that 5w30 is best, but there are other choices which are equally acceptable depending upon conditions of use.
I use Mobil 1 0w40 in my Corvette and have no qualms whatsoever in doing so because:-
1 - there is an official GM sticker on my door pillar telling me it’s OK for my car.
2 - it fully complies with requirements of the GM specs, published in the Maintenance/Warranty document which accompanied my car.
3 - I have used Mobil1 0w40 in all my cars, for years back, and have never had any circumstance in any vehicle, arising from its use, which would give me any cause for concern regarding its suitability for purpose.
Hope this helps!
Cheers!
Last edited by songman3; 01-24-2012 at 12:47 PM.
01-24-2012, 01:03 PM
#44
Safety Car
Songman, Does the filler cap on your oil tank say Mobil1 5W-30 or 0W-40?
01-24-2012, 01:32 PM
#45
I have an ARE ST3 system and I'm using a different tank.
It would make sense if it did say 5w30, because that, according to the manual, is the 'preferred' viscosity rating for whatever reason being 'preferred' means - marketing or mechanics!
From a purely cost basis when you are having such a low volume of sales - 20 to 30 cars - it is a lot cheaper to print off a few stickers for the door pillar than to remanufacture oil tanks caps!
I think the 0w40 grade is to do with the European concept of a 'sporting product' - it is Mobil's performance brand and is perfectly OK for daily use in the Z06.
I use it all year round , and on the track too
I would change to say 15w50, if I was doing track days in the Texas summer heat!
The way I saw it was both grades were equally good - 5w30 or 0w40 -the tank cap came all the way from the USA, but the sticker was made in Europe!
5w30 an 0w40 are both API SL - though the standard has now moved on to SN grades I believe.
A lot of the redesignation of grades, is due to ever increasing stringent Emissions regulations
01-24-2012, 06:37 PM
#46
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I think it says 5W30 - I'll have to check just to make sure, because it is a while since I used it!
I have an ARE ST3 system and I'm using a different tank.
It would make sense if it did say 5w30, because that, according to the manual, is the 'preferred' viscosity rating for whatever reason being 'preferred' means - marketing or mechanics!
From a purely cost basis when you are having such a low volume of sales - 20 to 30 cars - it is a lot cheaper to print off a few stickers for the door pillar than to remanufacture oil tanks caps!
I think the 0w40 grade is to do with the European concept of a 'sporting product' - it is Mobil's performance brand and is perfectly OK for daily use in the Z06.
I use it all year round , and on the track too
I would change to say 15w50, if I was doing track days in the Texas summer heat!
The way I saw it was both grades were equally good - 5w30 or 0w40 -the tank cap came all the way from the USA, but the sticker was made in Europe!
5w30 an 0w40 are both API SL - though the standard has now moved on to SN grades I believe.
A lot of the redesignation of grades, is due to ever increasing stringent Emissions regulations
I have an ARE ST3 system and I'm using a different tank.
It would make sense if it did say 5w30, because that, according to the manual, is the 'preferred' viscosity rating for whatever reason being 'preferred' means - marketing or mechanics!
From a purely cost basis when you are having such a low volume of sales - 20 to 30 cars - it is a lot cheaper to print off a few stickers for the door pillar than to remanufacture oil tanks caps!
I think the 0w40 grade is to do with the European concept of a 'sporting product' - it is Mobil's performance brand and is perfectly OK for daily use in the Z06.
I use it all year round , and on the track too
I would change to say 15w50, if I was doing track days in the Texas summer heat!
The way I saw it was both grades were equally good - 5w30 or 0w40 -the tank cap came all the way from the USA, but the sticker was made in Europe!
5w30 an 0w40 are both API SL - though the standard has now moved on to SN grades I believe.
A lot of the redesignation of grades, is due to ever increasing stringent Emissions regulations
Thank you very much for taking the time to make lengthy post accompanied by links and pictures. You have answered many questions. Most importantly the Euro manual does not explicitly say to use Mobil1 0w40 as most here have asserted.
The graphic of acceptable oil viscosities doesn't even include 0w40. It actually looks like the best oil would be 10w40 for cool to hot operation. Now I am worried that the 0w40 is too thin at cold start up !!!!1
In my research it now appears the GM is mandating the Dexos2 oil for our cars (and all gasoline, desiel engines) in Europe. Do you know if Dexos2 is available in 5w30 or just 0w40.
Did you look at these?
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13274496648653
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13274497644911
DH
Last edited by Dirty Howie; 01-24-2012 at 07:03 PM.
01-24-2012, 07:01 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Maybe it is the European air????? 
It sure seems like oil recomendations would be the same??
Jim
It sure seems like oil recomendations would be the same??
Jim
01-24-2012, 09:32 PM
#48
Now I am worried that the 0w40 is too thin at cold start up !!!!1
"quote"
that is actually one of the points I never understood. Following link and its 10 chapters suggests that any oil with a "0" (cold start viscosity) should be better at start up than a 5, 10, 15 or 20. This links argues that, at least if I understand correctly, the thinner the oil at start up the better. Basically arguing that any viscosity at start up is still much higher than optimum when reaching operating temperature of the engine: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
However, other opinions in the internet state that they had better experience by using oil that is thicker at start up as thin oil drains back too quickly exposing metal to metal contact during start up.
"quote"
that is actually one of the points I never understood. Following link and its 10 chapters suggests that any oil with a "0" (cold start viscosity) should be better at start up than a 5, 10, 15 or 20. This links argues that, at least if I understand correctly, the thinner the oil at start up the better. Basically arguing that any viscosity at start up is still much higher than optimum when reaching operating temperature of the engine: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
However, other opinions in the internet state that they had better experience by using oil that is thicker at start up as thin oil drains back too quickly exposing metal to metal contact during start up.
01-24-2012, 09:39 PM
#49
Now I am worried that the 0w40 is too thin at cold start up !!!!1
"quote"
that is actually one of the points I never understood. Following link and its 10 chapters suggests that any oil with a "0" (cold start viscosity) should be better at start up than a 5, 10, 15 or 20. This links argues that, at least if I understand correctly, the thinner the oil at start up the better. Basically arguing that any viscosity at start up is still much higher than optimum when reaching operating temperature of the engine: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
However, other opinions in the internet state that they had better experience by using oil that is thicker at start up as thin oil drains back too quickly exposing metal to metal contact during start up.
"quote"
that is actually one of the points I never understood. Following link and its 10 chapters suggests that any oil with a "0" (cold start viscosity) should be better at start up than a 5, 10, 15 or 20. This links argues that, at least if I understand correctly, the thinner the oil at start up the better. Basically arguing that any viscosity at start up is still much higher than optimum when reaching operating temperature of the engine: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
However, other opinions in the internet state that they had better experience by using oil that is thicker at start up as thin oil drains back too quickly exposing metal to metal contact during start up.
01-25-2012, 02:50 AM
#50
I have a 100% EURO spec car and the oil filler cap says 5-30.. I have to check if there is a sticker at the door / pillar though...
But here what I discovered on German websites of oil brands for Z06:
Castrol:
Füllmenge : Füllmenge (gesamt) 9,9 Liter
Einsatz : Flexibel (max)
Intervalle : Wechseln 12 Monate
Produkte : Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-40 C3
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4
--> So Castrol says either 0-40, 5-40 OR 5-30 is suitable
whereas Mobil1 states:
Motor (B) Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30
only....
I will double check my owners manual /stickers (if existant)..
But here what I discovered on German websites of oil brands for Z06:
Castrol:
Füllmenge : Füllmenge (gesamt) 9,9 Liter
Einsatz : Flexibel (max)
Intervalle : Wechseln 12 Monate
Produkte : Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-40 C3
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4
--> So Castrol says either 0-40, 5-40 OR 5-30 is suitable
whereas Mobil1 states:
Motor (B) Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30
only....
I will double check my owners manual /stickers (if existant)..
01-25-2012, 10:00 AM
#51
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I have a 100% EURO spec car and the oil filler cap says 5-30.. I have to check if there is a sticker at the door / pillar though...
But here what I discovered on German websites of oil brands for Z06:
Castrol:
Füllmenge : Füllmenge (gesamt) 9,9 Liter
Einsatz : Flexibel (max)
Intervalle : Wechseln 12 Monate
Produkte : Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-40 C3
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4
--> So Castrol says either 0-40, 5-40 OR 5-30 is suitable
whereas Mobil1 states:
Motor (B) Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30
only....
I will double check my owners manual /stickers (if existant)..
But here what I discovered on German websites of oil brands for Z06:
Castrol:
Füllmenge : Füllmenge (gesamt) 9,9 Liter
Einsatz : Flexibel (max)
Intervalle : Wechseln 12 Monate
Produkte : Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-40 C3
: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4
--> So Castrol says either 0-40, 5-40 OR 5-30 is suitable
whereas Mobil1 states:
Motor (B) Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30
only....
I will double check my owners manual /stickers (if existant)..
What year is your car please?
DH
01-25-2012, 06:12 PM
#55
Team Owner
Thread Starter
01-25-2012, 06:25 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
It is IMPOSSIBLE for an oil to be too thin at startup (temperatures).
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
01-25-2012, 06:33 PM
#57
Melting Slicks
It is IMPOSSIBLE for an oil to be too thin at startup (temperatures).
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
Good stuff!!
01-25-2012, 07:54 PM
#58
Team Owner
Member Since: Apr 2001
Location: Elmhurst, IL (West Suburb of Chicago) & Home of MEGA Horsepower
Posts: 26,713
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on
399 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06
It is IMPOSSIBLE for an oil to be too thin at startup (temperatures).
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
To this gentleman who I quote above, in a street driven C6 Z, with some 35 to 40 degree cold starts through out the year, if you were going to stick with M1, would you run
M1 0W40 or M1 5W30 and why?
01-25-2012, 08:02 PM
#59
Team Owner
Thread Starter
It is IMPOSSIBLE for an oil to be too thin at startup (temperatures).
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
Actual oil viscosities can be measured, and actual engines are designed for a small range of actual viscosities. Thermostats are selected so that the oil gets up to the correct temperature and stays there. Viscosity is the reesistance of a fluid to flow. This can be measured in Stokes or in Pascals the difference between the measurement systems is the density of the fluid. Stokes covers most engine parameters, while pascals covers oil being thrown off crankshaft bearings.
What the LSx engines wants is about 10 centiStokes (8.5-12) of oil viscosity--this happens to fall into the -30 weight grading done by SAE. When the 5W-30 oil is at 212dF the oil will have a viscosity appropriate to the engine. If the oil gets hotter, its viscosity will go down, and if the temperature gets lower, the viscosity will go up. The engine bearing clearances, piston to bore clearances, valve to guide, valve and other seals are all specified around this oil viscosity.
That same 5W-30 oil has a startup oil viscosity of 75 cSt-ish. Since 75 is greater than 10 the oil at startup is too thick. Were the oil a 0W-30 startup viscosity would be around 66-70, were it a 10W-30 oil, startup viscosity would be in the 80-90 cSt range. Still, it is alltoo thick at startup. One cannot even buy a base stock that has 10 cSt of viscosity at 40dF startup temperatures (corresponding to a xxW-(-20) oil {a dash minus 20 oil weight}.
When the oil is at 10 cSt, the engine will suffer almost no wear as it motors around. As the oil gets hotter and thinner, wear will increase, slowly at first (245dF), moderate a litle later (265dF), to unreasonable (300dF) still later. If your application sees temperatures above 265dF you can reduce engine wear by using a thicker oil--which will have thinned to 10cSt at the hotter temperatures you are running the engine. 10W-40 at 245dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. 10W-50 at 270dF is like 5W-30 at 212dF. The correct way to deal with hotter oil temperatures is to put an oil cooler (or a get bigger one) and keep the oil temperatures down.
When an oil is thicker that what the engine desires (either cold starts, lowered thermostats, or thicker oil than recommended) certain other kinds of operational maladies begin to occur. Piston rings are not cleaned sufficiently and will build up deposits, valve guids are not properly lubricated,....
When an oil is used and never gets up to 205dF the ZDDP does not form the metalorganic films that provide the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Some of the detergents and acid neutralizers don't work below 185dF-ish. And finally, most engine studies have concluded that engines last longest when the engine is above 200dF and below 220dF.
Thus, for lots of reasons, don't "get on" the engine until the oil is up into the 160dF range.
Thanks very much for your input
In your explanation you use the term startup viscosity. But surely this is dependant on the temperature. So when our cars are starting up in the summer vs the winter there can be a 35-40* temperature differential. And thats in SoCal so there is a more extreme variance in other locals. So is there really much difference over all averageing all the cold starts throughout the year between a 5w30 and a 0w40 ?
So for my application where my start up temps will vary from 35* to 70* and my track temp will be about 240-250 do you think that Mobil1 0w40 is the proper oil ??
DH
01-25-2012, 08:25 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
Mitch
Thanks very much for your input
In your explanation you use the term startup viscosity. But surely this is dependant on the temperature. So when our cars are starting up in the summer vs the winter there can be a 35-40* temperature differential. And thats in SoCal so there is a more extreme variance in other locals. So is there really much difference over all averageing all the cold starts throughout the year between a 5w30 and a 0w40 ?
So for my application where my start up temps will vary from 35* to 70* and my track temp will be about 240-250 do you think that Mobil1 0w40 is the proper oil ??
DH
Thanks very much for your input
In your explanation you use the term startup viscosity. But surely this is dependant on the temperature. So when our cars are starting up in the summer vs the winter there can be a 35-40* temperature differential. And thats in SoCal so there is a more extreme variance in other locals. So is there really much difference over all averageing all the cold starts throughout the year between a 5w30 and a 0w40 ?
So for my application where my start up temps will vary from 35* to 70* and my track temp will be about 240-250 do you think that Mobil1 0w40 is the proper oil ??
DH