[Z06] GM response to LS7 valve guide issue summary confirmed
10-13-2012, 12:43 AM
#801
Melting Slicks
That there is an issue affecting ls7s and it isn't some small thing it affects them all. I'm beginning to think its just the chosen guide material or poorly machined guides. A cheap part costing thousands of dollars in headaches but that's just my uneducated guess.
10-13-2012, 12:49 AM
#802
Racer
Member Since: Oct 2005
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GM is not going to do anything until someone puts a fire underneath them. The situation was "contained" at the manufacturing level since Feb. 2011. If they were sincere about fixing the problem on cars that have already left the factory, some form of notice or process would have been implemented months ago. Instead, 18 months later, all they did was posted a simple message via a messanger on a car forum. The thing that really rubs me the wrong way is that instead of sending a powertrain engineer to address the forum members (afterall, the subject at hand is indeed a technical one), they send a customer service rep instead. No offence to Evan, but if he was not involved in the investigation of this "condition", he is useless here. He probably doesn't even know (or have ever heard) the "noise" of a bad engine he stated in his first message.
Evan, if you are reading this, can you please confirm your position within the GM organization. Are you an engineer posting as a customer service rep specifically assigned to handle this LS7 situation??? Or are you really a GM employee who spends your full working day fielding calls and answering emails from customers only? If you are a non-technical staff who does not know anything about this LS7 problem beyond what you were told to say in your first message, then will you please tell your supervisor that this forum would really appreciate if GM can send someone who has intimate knowledge about this problem instead, so that a proper dialogue can be established with our forum members.
Mike (shorthrow), will you please also talk to your GM contact at your end. This latest attempt by GM to address our forum members is not working properly. Lots of questions are un-answered.
10-13-2012, 01:23 AM
#803
Le Mans Master
10-13-2012, 04:52 AM
#804
Burning Brakes
I think the GM message isn't satisfying because the statement really doesn't tell us much or change anything, other than loosely acknowledging an issue.
It doesn't help anyone diagnose their car through specific VINs, specific head castings, which head suppliers (if more than one) have problems, or any other useful identifying information. Instead we got a broad 08-11 range that suspiciously leaves out 06/07 engines that we know have problems too.
Diagnosing based on symptoms like "excessive valve train noise" is next to meaningless too. Ignoring for a second the cars with worn guides or valve failures that exhibited no abnormal valve train noise, what standard exists to judge noise as "excessive"?
All people want is a reliable simple way to know if they are affected by this issue. And the method to do that remains what it was before the GM statement, you have tear into your heads and measure your guides. That's all you could do before, and that is really all you can do now, pull heads and measure guides.
The GM statement does nothing but say that issues will be covered under warranty if you still have a warranty. GM is supposed to do that anyway, and with some exceptions, GM was already at least replacing stock motor failures under warranty. Again, the GM statement fundamentally doesn't change anything that Z06 owners were doing prior to the statement, and that is why people aren't satisfied.
The other problem is that there are nearly as many 06/07 LS7s as all other model years combined, so currently the GM statement is worthless to nearly 50% of all Z06 owners save a few who have extended warranties (as long as they are properly validated GMPP warranties). And soon we will be joined by an increasing number of out-of-warranty 2008 Z06s. When the rest of the 2008 Z06 warranties expire within the coming year, around 3/4ths of all C6Z06s ever built will be driving solo without the basic 5 year powertrain. They too will have to pull their heads on their dime to know for sure if there is a guide problem or not.
Few are satisfied, because nothing really changed.
It doesn't help anyone diagnose their car through specific VINs, specific head castings, which head suppliers (if more than one) have problems, or any other useful identifying information. Instead we got a broad 08-11 range that suspiciously leaves out 06/07 engines that we know have problems too.
Diagnosing based on symptoms like "excessive valve train noise" is next to meaningless too. Ignoring for a second the cars with worn guides or valve failures that exhibited no abnormal valve train noise, what standard exists to judge noise as "excessive"?
All people want is a reliable simple way to know if they are affected by this issue. And the method to do that remains what it was before the GM statement, you have tear into your heads and measure your guides. That's all you could do before, and that is really all you can do now, pull heads and measure guides.
The GM statement does nothing but say that issues will be covered under warranty if you still have a warranty. GM is supposed to do that anyway, and with some exceptions, GM was already at least replacing stock motor failures under warranty. Again, the GM statement fundamentally doesn't change anything that Z06 owners were doing prior to the statement, and that is why people aren't satisfied.
The other problem is that there are nearly as many 06/07 LS7s as all other model years combined, so currently the GM statement is worthless to nearly 50% of all Z06 owners save a few who have extended warranties (as long as they are properly validated GMPP warranties). And soon we will be joined by an increasing number of out-of-warranty 2008 Z06s. When the rest of the 2008 Z06 warranties expire within the coming year, around 3/4ths of all C6Z06s ever built will be driving solo without the basic 5 year powertrain. They too will have to pull their heads on their dime to know for sure if there is a guide problem or not.
Few are satisfied, because nothing really changed.
10-13-2012, 05:12 AM
#805
Pro
The right thing to do would be pull all of them in and check. They have enough records on the builds to know where all of the heads are. Inventories as well as usage is tracked. The accountants will take a risk on percentage of potential failures versus doing the right thing. This will all be at the risk of us the owners.
10-13-2012, 08:18 AM
#806
I guess they are expecting for C6Z owners to go out and purchase the new p/n GM valve guides and GM exhaust valves. If they dont want to provide VIN's, atleast provide p/n for the affected guides and valves and what the NEW p/n is for the "fixed" valves and guides...
Does anyone know exactly what was done in feb '11+ model heads? maybe, not more than likely, but perhaps someone can compare the affected guides and see if there is a noticeABLE difference with post feb '11 guides and possibly there is a etching on the actual valve??
Does anyone know exactly what was done in feb '11+ model heads? maybe, not more than likely, but perhaps someone can compare the affected guides and see if there is a noticeABLE difference with post feb '11 guides and possibly there is a etching on the actual valve??
10-13-2012, 08:54 AM
#807
Melting Slicks
Well, the email address, socialmedia@gm.com (facebook, twitter, etc), makers me think that they just tossed someone out there in an attempt to shut people up, so they can say they tried to reach out to owners. This is FAR from anything official from GM. Like you said, it would be easy for them to deny anything.
Hello all,
I would like to introduce myself as a Customer Assistance Representative from the GM Social Media group. The GM Social Media team is responsible for scanning over ninety forums, including this one, in order to provide customer service to those who utilize them. While we are not able to provide technical assistance, we are able to help in terms of customer assistance (recall information, product/service issues, current incentives, etc). We are looking forward to assisting those with concerns on the site. I can understand and appreciate you wanting to ensure that this is a legitimate outreach from GM. We are excited to be a part of this online community and hope that we are able to provide some assistance here.
Thank you,
Evan, GM Customer Service
I would like to introduce myself as a Customer Assistance Representative from the GM Social Media group. The GM Social Media team is responsible for scanning over ninety forums, including this one, in order to provide customer service to those who utilize them. While we are not able to provide technical assistance, we are able to help in terms of customer assistance (recall information, product/service issues, current incentives, etc). We are looking forward to assisting those with concerns on the site. I can understand and appreciate you wanting to ensure that this is a legitimate outreach from GM. We are excited to be a part of this online community and hope that we are able to provide some assistance here.
Thank you,
Evan, GM Customer Service
10-13-2012, 10:19 AM
#808
Race Director
I guess they are expecting for C6Z owners to go out and purchase the new p/n GM valve guides and GM exhaust valves. If they dont want to provide VIN's, atleast provide p/n for the affected guides and valves and what the NEW p/n is for the "fixed" valves and guides...
Does anyone know exactly what was done in feb '11+ model heads? maybe, not more than likely, but perhaps someone can compare the affected guides and see if there is a noticeABLE difference with post feb '11 guides and possibly there is a etching on the actual valve??
Does anyone know exactly what was done in feb '11+ model heads? maybe, not more than likely, but perhaps someone can compare the affected guides and see if there is a noticeABLE difference with post feb '11 guides and possibly there is a etching on the actual valve??
10-13-2012, 11:09 AM
#809
Melting Slicks
So can I sue GM for depreciation? Now that they admitted to a possible problem I think it will bring the value of my 09 Z car down.
10-13-2012, 11:37 AM
#810
I think the GM message isn't satisfying because the statement really doesn't tell us much or change anything, other than loosely acknowledging an issue.
It doesn't help anyone diagnose their car through specific VINs, specific head castings, which head suppliers (if more than one) have problems, or any other useful identifying information. Instead we got a broad 08-11 range that suspiciously leaves out 06/07 engines that we know have problems too.
Diagnosing based on symptoms like "excessive valve train noise" is next to meaningless too. Ignoring for a second the cars with worn guides or valve failures that exhibited no abnormal valve train noise, what standard exists to judge noise as "excessive"?
It doesn't help anyone diagnose their car through specific VINs, specific head castings, which head suppliers (if more than one) have problems, or any other useful identifying information. Instead we got a broad 08-11 range that suspiciously leaves out 06/07 engines that we know have problems too.
Diagnosing based on symptoms like "excessive valve train noise" is next to meaningless too. Ignoring for a second the cars with worn guides or valve failures that exhibited no abnormal valve train noise, what standard exists to judge noise as "excessive"?
Hello all,
LS7 Valve guide issue summary:
• Affects a small, number of '08, 09 ’10 and ’11 Z06’s
• GM discovered the condition through our cylinder head warranty data involving a very small percentage of our vehicles.
• Through inspection of returned heads, it was determined that a machining error in the valve guide had occurred at our head supplier.
• The quality issue has been contained as of Feb 2011 with 100% inspection of all heads.
• The most common customer complaint has been excessive valve train noise.
However if the condition is not addressed, it could result in engine failure. To date, where this condition has been observed, it has occurred early in the vehicle life.
What customers need to know: They should drive and enjoy their vehicles without fear. If their car demonstrates this condition, they are likely to hear unusual valvetrain noise first. If you have a concern regarding this issue on your personal vehicle feel free to contact me through private message on this forum and we will work to assist in resolving your concern. Feel free to contact me through Socialmedia@gm.com please put attention Evan in the subject. As always, vehicles that have modifications to the powertrain or the calibrations, are no longer covered by GM's warranty.
Sincerely,
Evan, Chevrolet Customer Service
LS7 Valve guide issue summary:
• Affects a small, number of '08, 09 ’10 and ’11 Z06’s
• GM discovered the condition through our cylinder head warranty data involving a very small percentage of our vehicles.
• Through inspection of returned heads, it was determined that a machining error in the valve guide had occurred at our head supplier.
• The quality issue has been contained as of Feb 2011 with 100% inspection of all heads.
• The most common customer complaint has been excessive valve train noise.
However if the condition is not addressed, it could result in engine failure. To date, where this condition has been observed, it has occurred early in the vehicle life.
What customers need to know: They should drive and enjoy their vehicles without fear. If their car demonstrates this condition, they are likely to hear unusual valvetrain noise first. If you have a concern regarding this issue on your personal vehicle feel free to contact me through private message on this forum and we will work to assist in resolving your concern. Feel free to contact me through Socialmedia@gm.com please put attention Evan in the subject. As always, vehicles that have modifications to the powertrain or the calibrations, are no longer covered by GM's warranty.
Sincerely,
Evan, Chevrolet Customer Service
What you say above is bad enough, but is not even the worst of it.
What they actually say, is that the owner is "likely" to hear excessive noise.
Not that he definitely will.
So he might not hear $&@? and all the time, trouble could be brewing.
All people want is a reliable simple way to know if they are affected by this issue. And the method to do that remains what it was before the GM statement, you have tear into your heads and measure your guides. That's all you could do before, and that is really all you can do now, pull heads and measure guides.
The GM statement does nothing but say that issues will be covered under warranty if you still have a warranty. GM is supposed to do that anyway, and with some exceptions, GM was already at least replacing stock motor failures under warranty. Again, the GM statement fundamentally doesn't change anything that Z06 owners were doing prior to the statement, and that is why people aren't satisfied.
The other problem is that there are nearly as many 06/07 LS7s as all other model years combined, so currently the GM statement is worthless to nearly 50% of all Z06 owners save a few who have extended warranties (as long as they are properly validated GMPP warranties). And soon we will be joined by an increasing number of out-of-warranty 2008 Z06s. When the rest of the 2008 Z06 warranties expire within the coming year, around 3/4ths of all C6Z06s ever built will be driving solo without the basic 5 year powertrain. They too will have to pull their heads on their dime to know for sure if there is a guide problem or not.
Few are satisfied, because nothing really changed.
The GM statement does nothing but say that issues will be covered under warranty if you still have a warranty. GM is supposed to do that anyway, and with some exceptions, GM was already at least replacing stock motor failures under warranty. Again, the GM statement fundamentally doesn't change anything that Z06 owners were doing prior to the statement, and that is why people aren't satisfied.
The other problem is that there are nearly as many 06/07 LS7s as all other model years combined, so currently the GM statement is worthless to nearly 50% of all Z06 owners save a few who have extended warranties (as long as they are properly validated GMPP warranties). And soon we will be joined by an increasing number of out-of-warranty 2008 Z06s. When the rest of the 2008 Z06 warranties expire within the coming year, around 3/4ths of all C6Z06s ever built will be driving solo without the basic 5 year powertrain. They too will have to pull their heads on their dime to know for sure if there is a guide problem or not.
Few are satisfied, because nothing really changed.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 10-13-2012 at 11:39 AM.
10-13-2012, 11:44 AM
#811
Drifting
Katech and lingenfelter have said that excessive oil consumption could be an issue.
10-13-2012, 12:16 PM
#813
Race Director
The LS7 is the first car I have ever had where I am paying attention to the consumption of oil at a 1/4 quart level. I think so far on this oil change at two events I've used 1/2 quart (two 1/4 qt top-ups). I do notice some oil smoke on start-up the last two months. 25K miles on a stock '09 LS7. Noise level seems to be the typical LS7 not "unusual LS7". I probably hear more LS7's than the local dealer has seen.
10-13-2012, 12:22 PM
#815
Melting Slicks
Unless you happen to be one of the lucky ones that get a very loud TICK TICK TICK before it lets go you will find out the hard way that you had the issue.
Even worse if you are out of warranty. It would seem by the lack of an official response and answers to a very basic question of warranty, or lack of, that you will be out of luck and out of pocket on your new LS7 if it fails.
This "Official" response is BS and nothing more than GM has done already. If this is what we have all been waiting for its a huge let down. Evan is nothing more than a damage control device deployed onto forums like this one to put out fires. I can show you examples on others forums with other "Evans" Tracy... Sarah... All work for the same department. I have yet to see anyone post a positive story on any of those forums.
The same people who had to worry before still have to worry. If you are out of warranty, get your heads inspected.
10-13-2012, 12:46 PM
#816
Safety Car
I think the GM message isn't satisfying because the statement really doesn't tell us much or change anything, other than loosely acknowledging an issue.
It doesn't help anyone diagnose their car through specific VINs, specific head castings, which head suppliers (if more than one) have problems, or any other useful identifying information. Instead we got a broad 08-11 range that suspiciously leaves out 06/07 engines that we know have problems too.
Diagnosing based on symptoms like "excessive valve train noise" is next to meaningless too. Ignoring for a second the cars with worn guides or valve failures that exhibited no abnormal valve train noise, what standard exists to judge noise as "excessive"?
All people want is a reliable simple way to know if they are affected by this issue. And the method to do that remains what it was before the GM statement, you have tear into your heads and measure your guides. That's all you could do before, and that is really all you can do now, pull heads and measure guides.
The GM statement does nothing but say that issues will be covered under warranty if you still have a warranty. GM is supposed to do that anyway, and with some exceptions, GM was already at least replacing stock motor failures under warranty. Again, the GM statement fundamentally doesn't change anything that Z06 owners were doing prior to the statement, and that is why people aren't satisfied.
The other problem is that there are nearly as many 06/07 LS7s as all other model years combined, so currently the GM statement is worthless to nearly 50% of all Z06 owners save a few who have extended warranties (as long as they are properly validated GMPP warranties). And soon we will be joined by an increasing number of out-of-warranty 2008 Z06s. When the rest of the 2008 Z06 warranties expire within the coming year, around 3/4ths of all C6Z06s ever built will be driving solo without the basic 5 year powertrain. They too will have to pull their heads on their dime to know for sure if there is a guide problem or not.
Few are satisfied, because nothing really changed.
It doesn't help anyone diagnose their car through specific VINs, specific head castings, which head suppliers (if more than one) have problems, or any other useful identifying information. Instead we got a broad 08-11 range that suspiciously leaves out 06/07 engines that we know have problems too.
Diagnosing based on symptoms like "excessive valve train noise" is next to meaningless too. Ignoring for a second the cars with worn guides or valve failures that exhibited no abnormal valve train noise, what standard exists to judge noise as "excessive"?
All people want is a reliable simple way to know if they are affected by this issue. And the method to do that remains what it was before the GM statement, you have tear into your heads and measure your guides. That's all you could do before, and that is really all you can do now, pull heads and measure guides.
The GM statement does nothing but say that issues will be covered under warranty if you still have a warranty. GM is supposed to do that anyway, and with some exceptions, GM was already at least replacing stock motor failures under warranty. Again, the GM statement fundamentally doesn't change anything that Z06 owners were doing prior to the statement, and that is why people aren't satisfied.
The other problem is that there are nearly as many 06/07 LS7s as all other model years combined, so currently the GM statement is worthless to nearly 50% of all Z06 owners save a few who have extended warranties (as long as they are properly validated GMPP warranties). And soon we will be joined by an increasing number of out-of-warranty 2008 Z06s. When the rest of the 2008 Z06 warranties expire within the coming year, around 3/4ths of all C6Z06s ever built will be driving solo without the basic 5 year powertrain. They too will have to pull their heads on their dime to know for sure if there is a guide problem or not.
Few are satisfied, because nothing really changed.
10-13-2012, 01:33 PM
#818
Melting Slicks
You wouldn't look at a car with its heads refreshed? And I don't think it will. Name a car for ~40k-50k that offers the track/street performance of the z06. It's a 1 car list unless you are willing to go older. And the newer z06s are rare birds. 2k 2009s and sub 1k 2010+ per year.
Last edited by gatti-man; 10-13-2012 at 01:36 PM.
10-13-2012, 01:38 PM
#819
Race Director
I doubt it, especially on cars that have had the head work done and documentation to support it. This is a widely known problem now so its out there but I doubt its going to drastically reduce the value of the car.
10-13-2012, 01:43 PM
#820
Burning Brakes
I was working a potential deal to trade mine in on a GT500 for the last few weeks, I have been on the fence about making the deal, waiting on this announcement, the dealers owner is a corvette fan and had wanted the car for himself, they called me today to tell me their offer had gone down $5,000 in light of "recent developments" 
