LS9Drew

I love it being untested.......are you people new to the LS Game? My goodness

'06 Quicksilver Z06

By jove, I think he's finally got it. It's a miracle, but I think he's finally got it.

Your comments, don't mean beans, because of some "personal aspect".

And that "personal aspect" is that you apparently have no personal experience, in cylinder head work, and are in here running off at the mouth about what needs to be done to protect our property, and what is and is not acceptable in achieving that end.

From what experience do you speak? Personal or professional.

When you can come back with some credentials indicating that all of this talk you are doing, is backed by your personal, or better yet, your professional experience, then you might have an audience in this thread.

But for now, all we have, are your "opinions' masquerading as "science".

Opinions, I might add, with apparently NO personal experience.

You too.

Mookster

Do we have any real info IF Ferrea hollow stem valves will be coming out? Can we hope that folks at Ferrea will have enough testing on them?

Rock36

Who am I arguing with? You? Me? My straw man? What is my specific argument here? Is my claim that we forget? That was written more for effect than an actual claim. Or is it that I'm claiming there are people who think SS valves won't work? I really don't care, I'm not out to prove a claim about what somebody said or their specific position. However, it isn't an argument that Katech uses inconel in their TT Air attack package, that is a fact. Besides, I didn't even quote you. I didn't direct any of my statements towards you or your position directly. Thus there is no straw man here, but when we talk about the heavy exhaust valves and issues associated, it bears repeating that Katech made an inconel valve work, and they had a reason to use it. So actually this isn't isn't a refutation of anything you said or any claim that applied to anyone specifically, just an illustration it can be done, and that it has been done. It is relevant in a thread about SS valves. You may have taken my earlier post personally, but I'm not only talking to you. There are other people here too.

In fact, I know that Random84 hasn't said he believes SS valves won't work either.

I already said if someone needs to see the spintron data to make a decision then so be it, I get it, I understand the concern. But let me know when you see that testing actually happen, but I won't be holding my breath in the mean time.

Random84

Just out of curiosity, what shop do you work for, Quick (I thought you were in healthcare)?

Random84

FWIW You are correct: I do believe solid stem valves can be an excellent choice and I value the opinions of the Shops that make those recommendations.

I'm just not 100% comfortable with some of the inferences and generalizations thrown around here on the forum; which are often perceive as fact but are much closer to "guess" or "assumption."

Rock36

Only if they claim that his position is worthless, I did no such thing, but I believe in general you ought to understand where the other person is coming from in a discussion and why they may react as they do in a conversation and not take it personally. Debate or no debate, if you can't understand how it is possible someone might have more riding on a particular decision than another person, and how that might affect their response, then I don't know what to tell you.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

I'm not the one in here telling people that SS valves upset valvetrain dynamics, and pointing to ONE test of ONE combination.

If I were doing such, then it would only be fair that I work for one, or better yet owned my own, if I were spreading such information and expected people to put any credence into what I was saying.

How about you?

As do I. But some guy in here going on about how they "upset valvetrain dynamics", and going on about ONE spintron test, using ONE setup, and holding that out as any sort of arguing point that they are in general "untested", is

Might not be the "test" he wanted, but they have indeed been "tested" in these vehicles.

Nor am I. The one I am least comfortable with is the "inference" that spintron testing is the only means of determining if a valve and spring setup will or will not work.

Pointing to ONE test, of one of which there are perhaps hundreds of combinations, and holding that out as having any validity at all, when it comes to the current combinations out there, is absurd.

It becomes even more absurd, when there are those calling for spintron testing to be done by a competing vendor which does not sell, nor advocate the use of solid stainless valves in normally aspirated setups, of various competitor's setups.

And then those advocating this, hiding behind the notion that it is in the interest of "science" in that advocacy.

That's crazy. If I'm a vendor, then I don't send my stuff off to my competition's facilities to be "tested" either.

How much of Katech's stuff are they sending out to Carlos, for "testing" and "validation"?

It is arguable that any such test be double blind and done by an independent entity or laboratory, if any validity is to placed in the results at all.

Mark2009

I honestly have no idea what the argument is any more... the thread has mostly devolved into repetitive personal attacks which is, unfortunately, par for the course on this issue. As such, and given that all the valid points that could be made have been made, there is really no useful reason to continue.

Just for illustrative purposes, that is the straw man -- no one has said that you can't make a heavy valve work, despite misrepresentations by others to the contrary. So when you say that someone has been able to make it work, the only possible person you could be arguing with is yourself (or your strawman, in debating parlance) since no one has said it can't be done.

It is worth noting that many of the arguments in this thread have been against something or based on something that was never said, which makes the thread a huge waste of time for everyone.

'06 Quicksilver Z06

Then what is your point?

Why are you here?

State your business.

Do you or do you not run SS solid stem exhaust valves?

Because if you don't then what is your purpose in being in this discussion?

You aren't telling us anything in the above, that we don't already know.

Random84

Actually, it's one of Quicksilver's primary responses to me - he spent two or three pages in the other thread spewing out very same. That may add to some of the confusion. It's one thing to stir the pot, and it's another to have a very real interest in the topic at hand (peoples' reasons may vary from acedemic to planning for future purchases - who am I to say?).

It's absurd to question Richard@WCCH's ethics because he doesn't own a Z06 to daily drive - just as it is absurd to assume someone is an authority on the subject because he tenaciously argues his position over, over, and over again? The crap that goes on here is a popularity contest wrapped in a who-can-yell-the-loudest competition, nothing more: it is one thing to note a potential conflict of interest, however in all of the mental acumen here people rather quickly miss the point of my posts (and questions) even though I am likewise interested in the best long-term solutions for those who will be asking these questions a year from now. Obviously, Mr. Quicksilver sees this differently than I - and he'll be the first to attack me for it. It's not any more or less true.

Likewise, if you or Quicksilver had to sell your corvettes tomorrow - would it change any of your decision-making or opnions? Of course not. Regarding the decorum in these threads: Having a 16 year old old come in and argue over valve guide wear is one thing; having grown men act like 16 year olds is another.

Actually, you've been "in here telling people" quite a few things over the years.... of course you'll have a long-winded retort about how your comments are different, you're right, you're just offering opinions, you're basing your statements off ____ and ad nauseum. Of course your style is to berate dissention to the point where people won't bother engaging anymore because they've become exasperated with the incessant arguing.

Even if someone is a Pro - there's no guarantee of accuracy, consistency or uniformity; even the Pro Opinions can vary widely but piggy-backing is common. If only Pros were allowed to post, this forum would be a rather quiet place, you'd have a muzzle on, and we'd still have no unanimous decision and a LOT of confusion. Hell, most of us wouldn't bother with the Ranger Method on clutch mainenance (but you do that anyway, don't you?) - and we better delete John_G's thread because he's not selling anything.

You present yourself as an authority - even if you walk that very fine line of putting the asterick of opinion on most of your posts - so I find it amusing that you're here "spreading information and expected people to put credence into what I was saying" with such veracity, such tenacity... only to in turn attack others for doing less than that - but I might have missed Mark200X's thread on "the fix".... Perhaps you'll come back with something about your experience and opinions - and then lambast me for debating under the context of mine!

You demand credentials to take anyone's perspective seriously, yet you have none of your own - and you've been quite vocal about your opinion on the right way to protect other people's property. Why should anyone take your threads seriously, if you don't do this for a living? I know you take yourself very seriously, so perhaps the "credentials" thing is not really about the context of Mark's statements (or mine)? Will all of your efforts and analysis be for naught if you trade in the Z for a Porsche? Will you no longer offer advice to new members based on your forum searches and list keeping, if you can no longer justify the sanctity your position with proof of registration?

Mark200X has a valid perspective, even if he's not an expert or running his own shop. That doesn't mean he's right, either - it just means that you can choose to debate him on the merits of his argument without being a d*** about it... but you consistently choose not to. The joys of a public forum!

Likewise, I can choose not to participate in these threads or try to point out the hypocrasy - but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Random84

You're not the first, you won't be the last.

Rock36

No because the decision was already made almost two years ago.

As for my opinion, selling tomorrow wouldn't have any bearing on my opinion either, how could it unless new evidence is introduced? My decision was based in large part on my unique circumstances, this also had an affect on my opinion to a lesser degree. If my circumstances were different, and I had different considerations, my decision might actually be different though my opinion might remain the same/similar.

As far as the 16 year comment goes, I'm not sure if that is directed at me or Quick, I'm going to assume Quick.

azZ06Mike

Here is what i have gathered from these topics.
1. My Z06 had the potential to drop a valve.
2. I read thru 100 pages of arm chair engineering conversation
3. I picked out the facts which were few and laughed at the assumptions that were many.
4. I called the experts and told them my concern
5. The experts offered their opinion
6. I installed SS valves, Bronze guides and cleaned up my heads.
7. I sleep well at night.

Take my car for example installed a cam, harden pushrods, bigger springs,upgraded rockers so now my valve train has been modified but there is no test to say it's right or wrong. The answer for me is people have been modifying engines well before most of us were born.

So the lack of technology back then to the technology now has one proven thing i see in the drag racing world and that is bronze guides and ss valves work.

Sitting back with a car and driving it under warranty should worry none that have this luxury. Having a car with no warranty then you should do preventive measures to mitigate your potential for loss from the junk valve guides and 2 piece valves.

The answer may not be 100% the right one going with the ss valves and bronze guides but at least it's failure rate is far less then the current junk Canadian made setup.

Quick has done alot of research and i am thankful for his thread so i could ensure i was not subjected to a motor replacement. The sky is falling threads was useful to me for sure.

There are some on here that get it if you race you need to adhere to a tighter maintenance schedule due to the added wear the car sees. To think your going to buy a car that can sustain the abuse of the road course and track for 20-30k miles without doing some refreshing work on the valves and guides is absurd. Every time i goto the track i watch and listen and learn and every one of these guys has the valve covers off and or plugs out checking for the signs of wear.

Guys enough of the theories as alot of you sound like pure idiots with your theories and measurement techniques. None of you know more than the GM experts or the head experts who have been doing this for 50 years.

I hope everyone can just find a way to be positive as us without warranties are on our own thanks to the Obama run GM corp and those with a warranty should drive the **** out of your car and trade it in when the warranty is up if your afraid to spend $2000 to upgrade your heads. After all buying a $90,000 car and pissing about $2000.00 upgrade is funny in it's self!

Rock36

Okay if you want to shoe horn that example into the definition of a straw man attempting to define an argument I'm not making, then I would have to say you are doing the same.

You are taking my example of stable inconel valves at 7000 rpm out of the context of my larger post, isolating that, calling the example a straw man in attempt to highlight some fallacy I'm using, presumably to discredit my overall position regardless of the purpose I used the factual example. That too is a straw man. If you aren't trying to discredit or refute my position, then don't bother accusing me of using a straw man against you or anyone else.

As it were, you could call my example of the out-of-control valve a straw man too if you must, because "no one ever claimed" that 98g exh valves will work with a PSI 1511 beehive spring and stock cam. I guess I'm debating myself there too, because I must have no other reason to illustrate an unstable valve either.

Again my comments weren't to you, they were to any who could come into this thread wanting to know about SS valves and who could be concerned about the weight. My post is more about outlining what we do know and what we don't based on the golden standard of spintron testing, hence my examples. More importantly my post was about cautioning against anyone that might use that one spintron test to extrapolate the results of other SS valve combinations.

It is conceivable, and why I posted, that someone could read that Katech article, look at the spike in the bounce plot @ 6900 rpm, and jump to conclusions prematurely while glossing over where the article explicitly mentions better springs and cam profiles as potential solutions.

Rock36

A little off topic, but I'm curious which pushrods you used? Did you keep the regular LS7 lifters as well? What valve springs are you using, and how often do you plan to change your springs?

'06 Quicksilver Z06

To your part in bold, 2000FRCZ19 makes a similar point.

But then that article, is often referenced for just such purpose as you express concern.

It is used to invalidate any cam, spring, SS valve setup which has not been spintron tested. And of course that would include all others in addition to the ONE setup tested in that article.

People talking about "scientific advancement" pointing to ONE article, discussing the results of ONE setup, when there are several other possible variations, is laughable.

Especially when the ONE configuration tested, in that ONE article, is not even known to be a configuration which is in widespread use.


Notice how he doesn't say just what kind of "testing". This omission of the word "spintron" from that sentence in red, is deliberate, and a technique which a skilled writer, political speech writers, propagandists, will use from time to time. Sometimes, what you "don't" say, is every bit as important as what you do say.

It is left up to the reader of his post to conclude that he means "spintron" testing. Which is the type "testing" the article centers around, and the last and ONLY type of "testing" which he is arguing/discussing/posting about.

As such, the deliberate intent is to give the reader of the post just enough of a shove in the direction of concluding that "spintron testing" is the only way to find a "balanced" or better put "acceptable" combination.

As I said to you earlier, that article is often times used to discredit the use of solid stainless valves in these cars.

When you call him on that he goes into his "nobody said it couldn't be done" and "strawman " bit.

Oh, and by the way Rock, did you see this?

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...ut-valves.html

Guy has 3 decades of personal experience, His shop touts over 68 years of collective experience, WCCH touts over 37 years of collective experience and is one of the most respected cylinder head shops in the U.S., their site says; "we share over 37 Years of experience in modifying and preparing cylinder heads for the racing industry"..., Darin Morgan 26 years, .. His site says "Darin Morgan has been porting cylinder heads for over 26 years. He has specialized in Pro Stock cylinder heads since 1991 but his expertise in induction research and development is far reaching. Darin's cylinder heads and intakes have had positive results in the NHRA Pro Stock ranks with 23 race wins and over 140 top ten qualifying efforts. His heads and manifolds are now having an impact on IHRA Pro Stock as well".... Darin has also undertaken some major research and development efforts for Nextel Cups teams. Teams such as DEI and Hendricks have benefited greatly from his efforts. As a matter of fact, Darin's SB2 heads where on the car for Earnhardt JR’s first win at Dallas Motor Speedway in 2000. Darin is also dedicated to education and has taught over 50 engine building and induction system design schools. He has given well over 48 seminars on Wet flow dynamics, cylinder head and induction system design and induction system tuning. Darin manages the cylinder head R&D program at Reher Morrison Racing Engines

Now I'm sure that none of the above professionals, would discount the potential or outright value of spintron testing. In fact, they have more than likely, if not definitely, used it in their professional endeavors.

But apparently all three have confidence, no doubt based upon their years of experience and expertise, in selling customers heads for LS7 engines, with SS valve and spring combinations in them which have likely not been spintron tested. Or more accurately put, which have no published spintron results that are easily found.

These guys are putting their names, their reputations on this work, and yet they proceed with these setups, and with the confidence to sell them.

That tells me a lot.

And it is also why I, like azZ06Mike, sleep well at night.

Rock36

Actually I hadn't seen that thread yet, thanks.

I absolutely agree with 2000FRCZ19s comments, I hadn't seen those comments from him either eventhough I posted in that thread too ha ha. It is somewhat ironic, because the Katech article is what eventually led me to the SS valves myself. That might seem counter-intuitive, but the comment about stronger springs as a solution led me to further research the basics of valve springs and how they control valves. What I learned made me comfortable using them.

azZ06Mike

using the livernois stage 2 build specs. Tehy have all the data on their website. Yes stock lifters.

I plan on changing my springs after each season so i will change them once it heats up again here in AZ and we stop racing so in May.

Our racing doesnt really get going until November here.

FrankTank

This is what it really boils down to again.. based on the experts that you spoke to or the others have interacted with on this matter, they all agreed on basically the same fix based on the information they have, their knowledge and expertise in working with cylinder heads and engines.

I get what Mike, Random84 and a few otherr are also driving at ( no pun) , they want more testing, data, samples etc... and are more really diving into the technical aspects and analyzing things...which of course is important too...

problem is though as you point out, people need solutions now and don't want to just park their cars, or those that fear taking the risk of driving and not addressing this don't want to write a 15k check for a new motor.

Most gearheads here, or guys that track or do not track the car don't need an engineer to analyze the problem, or want to have to let the car sit for weeks/months while engineers hash out what the problem is.. as pointed out above, there are a number of reputable , well experienced engine and head builders that are recommending this particular fix for those that want to do something now. The others may choose to wait if they are not convinced, and there is no harm in that either.

Sure, beyond that we can argue to no ends some other shops my recommend something else, or just using the stock set up...that becomes a debate that is not really a win or lose , right or wrong... it's who you trust and believe can give you the best guidance for your car.

While I can certainly respect the "engineers" that participate on this forum for their contributions, information and experience... at the end of the day I am not going to trust what an engineer says on a public forum like this whom I dont know from Adam... I am going to be calling on vendors here that specialize in head work or engine work and base my decision off that, since they base their reputation off their work and parts they use.