[ZR1] D3 Performance Engineering ZR1 HX System Development
09-09-2014, 01:08 PM
#41
Le Mans Master
But that’s my point, why do you need such high flow rates unless you are suing the car solely for drag racing? I can see it helping when drag racing as you want as cold water in the Intercooler brick as you can. This maintains higher Delta T between the incoming air and the water and thus pulls more heat from the intake air.
However if you use the car on a road course then all you are doing by increasing the speed of the water through the Intercooler bricks is reducing the temp of the water as it leaves the intercooler. This then results in a lower delta T at the HE end and thus less heat transfer.
Same goes for engine cooling. Everyone wants massive flow when actually it’s the radiator and the airflow over it that really matters. In fact in an engine you can actually increase the metal temps (internal engine temps) by increasing water flow rate. As the radiator becomes less efficient (due to lower Delta T values).
In an ideal world you would want the water leaving the intercooler (or engine) to be as hot as in coming air (or the metal in an engine). This would then mean that the water as removed as much heat as it can. This would also mean you have a decent delta T across the HE (or rad with an engine) and thus more heat transfer. To do this you want more intercooler rather than really slow speeds as you need to keep the water flowing fast enough to stop a thick boundary layer forming (form what I'm told that 10 lpm).
How would this look in reality? Like a massive intercooler on top of your engine with water flowing backwards and forwards through the brick(s). Like below
Air flow out
../\/\/\/\/\/\/\
|<<<<<<<<<<<|Water flow IN
|>>>>>>>>>>>|
|<<<<<<<<<<<|
|>>>>>>>>>>>|Water flow out
../\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Air flow in
Obviously this isn't practical but you get the idea.
Also how do you plan on slowing flow rater in a closed loop system? You cant do that as far as i am aware! you could have a HUGE HE which would take its time being pumped through but you cant slow the flow rate. Think of it like a river. The flow rate is the same but the water speed will increase in shallower sections and reduces in deeper ones. But the flow rate remains constant!
However if you use the car on a road course then all you are doing by increasing the speed of the water through the Intercooler bricks is reducing the temp of the water as it leaves the intercooler. This then results in a lower delta T at the HE end and thus less heat transfer.
Same goes for engine cooling. Everyone wants massive flow when actually it’s the radiator and the airflow over it that really matters. In fact in an engine you can actually increase the metal temps (internal engine temps) by increasing water flow rate. As the radiator becomes less efficient (due to lower Delta T values).
In an ideal world you would want the water leaving the intercooler (or engine) to be as hot as in coming air (or the metal in an engine). This would then mean that the water as removed as much heat as it can. This would also mean you have a decent delta T across the HE (or rad with an engine) and thus more heat transfer. To do this you want more intercooler rather than really slow speeds as you need to keep the water flowing fast enough to stop a thick boundary layer forming (form what I'm told that 10 lpm).
How would this look in reality? Like a massive intercooler on top of your engine with water flowing backwards and forwards through the brick(s). Like below
Air flow out
../\/\/\/\/\/\/\
|<<<<<<<<<<<|Water flow IN
|>>>>>>>>>>>|
|<<<<<<<<<<<|
|>>>>>>>>>>>|Water flow out
../\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Air flow in
Obviously this isn't practical but you get the idea.
Also how do you plan on slowing flow rater in a closed loop system? You cant do that as far as i am aware! you could have a HUGE HE which would take its time being pumped through but you cant slow the flow rate. Think of it like a river. The flow rate is the same but the water speed will increase in shallower sections and reduces in deeper ones. But the flow rate remains constant!
That's what I was trying to say. But as you see for yourself we can't change our intercooler bricks to be more efficient so all we can do is get water through as fast as possible so we do not reach saturation point, but slow enough through the heat exchanger to release that heat. And yes we cannot slow the system in one area versus another in a closed loop system so what does that leave us with. We are back at surface area of the heat exchanger. Also slow pumps do not have turbulent flow. A fast pump as long as it is not causing cavitation will give you that turbulent flow vs laminar which will allow for more molecules of water to contact the surface of the metal and exchange heat.
I can increase hx area while increasing flow rate of the system and achieve the result needed.
Also for your reference to road coursing you need to remember that air volume is increased as is heat in that situation. Therefore if I am hauling butt around Road Atlanta I am generating substantially more heat then when running around on the highway or for a 1/4 mile jaunt. What that means is I need the higher rate of flow to extract that heat since my intercooler bricks are so small and inefficient.
09-09-2014, 01:10 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
Chuntington, the owner of the car has not been available to go with us to a local HPDE event yet, but we did privately rent out Royal Purple Raceway and let the client hot lap the car, and even dyno testing we pretty much overheated the rest of the car while the intercooler kept up.
Our data paints a very clear picture that our system works.
There are many systems on the market that do indeed band-aid the problem by adding sheer capacity and a trunk-mounted tank, that is not the approach we took to solve this problem. If you take time to truly review the real-world data in the first two posts of this thread it is pretty conclusive.
Anyone on Earth is more than welcome to test our product, I think our testing proceedure and documented results we openly posted are pretty clear. We did a lot more than some highway and dyno pulls using the stock IAT2 sensor...
Our data paints a very clear picture that our system works.
There are many systems on the market that do indeed band-aid the problem by adding sheer capacity and a trunk-mounted tank, that is not the approach we took to solve this problem. If you take time to truly review the real-world data in the first two posts of this thread it is pretty conclusive.
Anyone on Earth is more than welcome to test our product, I think our testing proceedure and documented results we openly posted are pretty clear. We did a lot more than some highway and dyno pulls using the stock IAT2 sensor...
Apparently band-aids work better for hemorrhaging than extensive surgery.
Just sayin....
09-09-2014, 01:19 PM
#43
Le Mans Master
Also wanted to point out that the pumps reduce pump speed with heat as you know chuntington101 this is due to the PvT relationship.
09-09-2014, 06:53 PM
#44
Drifting
Any plans to sell some of the components if the system, so is it an all or nothing deal.. As many of us have done some mids already, we'd like to cherry pick the missing pieces for our own set ups if possible...
Thanks
Thanks
09-09-2014, 07:34 PM
#45
Melting Slicks
i'm just confused on why members are beating up D3 on the price? companies like D3 are putting up the money to pay engineers/techs to build and test these kits to solve a problem with a plug and play complete kit. Cad design, fabrication, and testing isn't cheap and as anyone who ownes their own business knows, you have to make money to survive and you have to make a profit to make taking on projects like this worth it. You can not put a price on intellectual capital. that's like complaing about the ZR1 costing 120k and saying it's just a C6 with a blower, we've all heard that dumb sh*! argument before. also D3 knows' this is a ZR1 specific kit, there were less than 5k ZR1's made and about 10% of owners are modding them so that is a market of 500??? They have to sell a ton of kits for less money or less kits for more; name a company that is still in biz that banks on selling a ton of kits for less when the prospect pool is so small? Most successful buisnesse's i know sell products for more in the begining to get their R&D costs back then reduce the price. this kit obviously wasn't an easy feat considering it's coming out in Sept of 2014 and ZR1's were having these heat issues in 09. I don't own the kit or work for D3 I just appreciate when companies put actual testing into products that are needed espcially for our old limited production ZR1 when most other shops are focusing on the C7.
Long live capitalism.
Long live capitalism.
Last edited by K B Vettin; 09-09-2014 at 11:05 PM.
09-09-2014, 09:09 PM
#46
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
UrbanKnight,
While we considered this very heavily, we had to focus on our goals for this kit. We designed every inch, every connection, hose, pump, heat exchanger core, every single component with one goal in mind, the best non-compromise kit available for the ZR-1 that actually worked. We didn't want to settle just to make it easier for someone who already bought XYZ component, because it would create a compromise, thus nullifying the whole point of making a non-compromise kit.
We didn't plan to set the world on fire selling these, or trim costs by lowering our expectations, we created a solution to like-minded individuals who want the best turn-key complete system money can buy.
Great question though, thanks for the post.
09-09-2014, 09:33 PM
#47
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Naperville/Palm Beach IL/FL
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Do any of these effect your results?
Logging in the heat or when sun went down or on a rainy stormy day vs. night?
Ambient is way off on comparison?
Can you explain what the numbers mean in the column marked logged on the right?
09-09-2014, 10:37 PM
#49
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,005
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17,'22-'23
i'm just confused on why members are beating up D3 the price? companies like D3 are putting up the money to pay engineers/techs to build and test these kits to solve a problem with a plug and play complete kit. Cad design, fabrication, and testing isn't cheap and as anyone who ownes their own business knows, you have to make money to survive and you have to make a profit to make taking on projects like this worth it. You can not put a price on intellectual capital. that's like complaing about the ZR1 costing 120k and saying it's just a C6 with a blower, we've all heard that dumb sh*! argument before. also D3 knows' this is a ZR1 specific kit, there were less than 5k ZR1's made and about 10% of owners are modding them so that is a market of 500??? They have to sell a ton of kits for less money or less kits for more; name a company that is still in biz that banks on selling a ton of kits for less when the prospect pool is so small? Most successful buisnesse's i know sell products for more in the begining to get their R&D costs back then reduce the price. this kit obviously wasn't an easy feat considering it's coming out in Sept of 2014 and ZR1's were having these heat issues in 09. I don't own the kit or work for D3 I just appreciate when companies put actual testing into products that are needed espcially for our old limited production ZR1 when most other shops are focusing on the C7.
Long live capitalism.
Long live capitalism.
09-09-2014, 11:57 PM
#50
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
The testing with the OEM, the thermocouple for ambient was accidently left in the engine bay (why the temp is so high), ambient was around the other two tests, ours was ran towards the end of the day so naturally temps within our dyno room fell some, however if you look at pre blower temps from that log, they were higher on our system pulls (we are the black overlay). As for what it says in the logged section, AT is for air temps (pre and post IC), WT is for water temps (of the fluid in the HX system, In intercoolers, out intercoolers into HX, out HX), and Press is manifold pressure. Hope this answers your question.
Last edited by D3PE; 09-10-2014 at 12:06 AM.
09-10-2014, 04:20 AM
#51
Chuntington, the owner of the car has not been available to go with us to a local HPDE event yet, but we did privately rent out Royal Purple Raceway and let the client hot lap the car, and even dyno testing we pretty much overheated the rest of the car while the intercooler kept up.
Our data paints a very clear picture that our system works.
There are many systems on the market that do indeed band-aid the problem by adding sheer capacity and a trunk-mounted tank, that is not the approach we took to solve this problem. If you take time to truly review the real-world data in the first two posts of this thread it is pretty conclusive.
Anyone on Earth is more than welcome to test our product, I think our testing proceedure and documented results we openly posted are pretty clear. We did a lot more than some highway and dyno pulls using the stock IAT2 sensor...
Our data paints a very clear picture that our system works.
There are many systems on the market that do indeed band-aid the problem by adding sheer capacity and a trunk-mounted tank, that is not the approach we took to solve this problem. If you take time to truly review the real-world data in the first two posts of this thread it is pretty conclusive.
Anyone on Earth is more than welcome to test our product, I think our testing proceedure and documented results we openly posted are pretty clear. We did a lot more than some highway and dyno pulls using the stock IAT2 sensor...
Hope you can get the owner to a HPDE event soon so you can show the system, working there to.
09-10-2014, 08:06 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Chuntington, the owner of the car has not been available to go with us to a local HPDE event yet, but we did privately rent out Royal Purple Raceway and let the client hot lap the car, and even dyno testing we pretty much overheated the rest of the car while the intercooler kept up.
Our data paints a very clear picture that our system works.
There are many systems on the market that do indeed band-aid the problem by adding sheer capacity and a trunk-mounted tank, that is not the approach we took to solve this problem. If you take time to truly review the real-world data in the first two posts of this thread it is pretty conclusive.
Anyone on Earth is more than welcome to test our product, I think our testing proceedure and documented results we openly posted are pretty clear. We did a lot more than some highway and dyno pulls using the stock IAT2 sensor...
Our data paints a very clear picture that our system works.
There are many systems on the market that do indeed band-aid the problem by adding sheer capacity and a trunk-mounted tank, that is not the approach we took to solve this problem. If you take time to truly review the real-world data in the first two posts of this thread it is pretty conclusive.
Anyone on Earth is more than welcome to test our product, I think our testing proceedure and documented results we openly posted are pretty clear. We did a lot more than some highway and dyno pulls using the stock IAT2 sensor...
09-10-2014, 09:44 AM
#53
Supporting Vendor
Awesome Product guys! Looks very well thought out and very well executed! Cant wait till we get our hands on one to test it out ourselves!
Keep up the good work!
Keep up the good work!
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Too many PMs, please call or email instead, thanks!
Current C7 World Record Holder 7.55 @ 184 MPH
Quickest and Fastest GEN5 LT Powered Vehicle
LMR1200HP Supercharged C7 8.84 @ 160
LMR1200HP Twin Turbo C7 9.35@155mph-2014
2 TIME OUTLAW DRAG RADIAL LSX CHAMPION 2008/2010
9.47 ZR1 Corvette-2009
LATE MODEL RACECRAFT
713-466-9900
LateModelRacecraft.com
Too many PMs, please call or email instead, thanks!
09-10-2014, 11:50 AM
#54
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Thanks guys, we're very happy to have a lot of the established shops helping get this system onto their client's vehicles.
We only have less than a handful of slots open on this first order, so if you're thinking about picking up a system contact us today!
832-230-1094 or Sales@D3PerformanceEngineering.com
We only have less than a handful of slots open on this first order, so if you're thinking about picking up a system contact us today!
832-230-1094 or Sales@D3PerformanceEngineering.com
09-10-2014, 06:12 PM
#56
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Naperville/Palm Beach IL/FL
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D3 im still trying to understand these logs... I overlayed the Magnuson/PWR next to OEM and D3 that you posted.... can you show me the SUPERIOR difference in numbers or am I missing something.
At the end of the day it all comes down to Iat2 temps don't it? And that would be ....AT post IC?
On all the logged data can you explain the difference from the blue arrow and black arrow?
Thanks
At the end of the day it all comes down to Iat2 temps don't it? And that would be ....AT post IC?
On all the logged data can you explain the difference from the blue arrow and black arrow?
Thanks
09-10-2014, 07:07 PM
#57
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
D3 im still trying to understand these logs... I overlayed the Magnuson/PWR next to OEM and D3 that you posted.... can you show me the SUPERIOR difference in numbers or am I missing something.
At the end of the day it all comes down to Iat2 temps don't it? And that would be ....AT post IC?
On all the logged data can you explain the difference from the blue arrow and black arrow?
Thanks
At the end of the day it all comes down to Iat2 temps don't it? And that would be ....AT post IC?
On all the logged data can you explain the difference from the blue arrow and black arrow?
Thanks
ZBADESTZ, do you have any experience Motec i2 logging software?
09-11-2014, 10:11 AM
#59
Racer
09-11-2014, 11:55 AM
#60
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Billy Z06,
We actually made a simulation that involved an airflow system, with ducting that simulated the opening in the front of the vehicle. We made a quick-access panel to change out the heat exchangers and the ducting to make sure airflow would be similar through the units, as not to affect or restrict airflow to the factory cooling system.
We had done a good bit of math and computer simulations when we chose what type, brand, and size core to have made for this system, and our real world testing validated our math and computer testing, this system should have absolutely no effect on the stock, or any aftermarket cooling system. However if you have a custom duct setup you may need to alter that a little bit as our heat exchanger, lines, tanks, pump, brackets, mounting locations, basically everything on our system replaces the entire intercooler system.
If your ZR-1 is stock, and has the stock bumper, brake ducts, etc, our kit was specifically designed to work in conjunction with all of those things, you will only need to modify your ducting if you have aftermarket or custom ducting.
Chuntington and BlaSSt,
You guys are preaching to the choir! You need to peer-pressure JC13ZR1 to get out to the track, trust me we're on it!
We actually made a simulation that involved an airflow system, with ducting that simulated the opening in the front of the vehicle. We made a quick-access panel to change out the heat exchangers and the ducting to make sure airflow would be similar through the units, as not to affect or restrict airflow to the factory cooling system.
We had done a good bit of math and computer simulations when we chose what type, brand, and size core to have made for this system, and our real world testing validated our math and computer testing, this system should have absolutely no effect on the stock, or any aftermarket cooling system. However if you have a custom duct setup you may need to alter that a little bit as our heat exchanger, lines, tanks, pump, brackets, mounting locations, basically everything on our system replaces the entire intercooler system.
If your ZR-1 is stock, and has the stock bumper, brake ducts, etc, our kit was specifically designed to work in conjunction with all of those things, you will only need to modify your ducting if you have aftermarket or custom ducting.
Chuntington and BlaSSt,
You guys are preaching to the choir! You need to peer-pressure JC13ZR1 to get out to the track, trust me we're on it!