[Z06] Promising dyno results of my new LS7 heads
03-19-2016, 07:42 PM
#21
Indeed. The more interesting question is why did Tony feel the need to recommend a different bump stick to this setup?
This is an honest curiosity. I see in one instance the lift was changed. Was the lobe profile dramatically different? More aggressive perhaps?
This is an honest curiosity. I see in one instance the lift was changed. Was the lobe profile dramatically different? More aggressive perhaps?
03-19-2016, 07:58 PM
#22
Drifting
I have emailed and more importantly had a few conversations with Josh....I agree he has a bit of an overzealous sarcastic approach to the way he posts at times but I really think it's more of a unique sense of humor than anything else and him trying to get a point across while having a little fun at the same time. He's passionate about this stuff, knowledgeable, and of course has his opinions as well, but I think the advice you quickly offered is noteworthy cause I could see it annoying other folks not as familiar with his brand of humor lets say
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion....I have been posting on these message boards for well over a decade and have pretty thick skin. In the end the cream always rises to the top and I'm in no rush to convince anyone the products I offer might be worth their consideration. I just thought these results were worth a look and decided to share (to be honest I was encouraged to share by a few people I'm close to). As more positive independent feedback rolls out, the less anything needs to be said. I know these heads are kick azz but more importantly the package approach I have taken to the design (the right valves, rocker arms, cam lobe profiles, etc.) help guarantee the end user experiences above average results from the install. Getting the combination correct makes the sum of all the parts shine even brighter
Million dollar question....did you get to see that "rowdy 5th Gen" run down the track with the new combination and if so how did it perform? You had mentioned in a previous thread you might have the opportunity to check that out.
-Tony
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion....I have been posting on these message boards for well over a decade and have pretty thick skin. In the end the cream always rises to the top and I'm in no rush to convince anyone the products I offer might be worth their consideration. I just thought these results were worth a look and decided to share (to be honest I was encouraged to share by a few people I'm close to). As more positive independent feedback rolls out, the less anything needs to be said. I know these heads are kick azz but more importantly the package approach I have taken to the design (the right valves, rocker arms, cam lobe profiles, etc.) help guarantee the end user experiences above average results from the install. Getting the combination correct makes the sum of all the parts shine even brighter
Million dollar question....did you get to see that "rowdy 5th Gen" run down the track with the new combination and if so how did it perform? You had mentioned in a previous thread you might have the opportunity to check that out.
-Tony
03-19-2016, 08:21 PM
#23
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
The short answer is the original cam in the car was a little bit on the light side concerning duration....much more than it needed to be based on the customers objectives. Scott (the builder) and I discussed this and we both agreed we should bump the cam a little bit to improve the output some of the new combo with my heads.
Important note....this project was never designed to be a cylinder head test....I only shared the results with you guys because IMO the power curve and overall gains were very impressive considering the baseline combo was already stout (larger CNC ported OEM heads, a decent sized cam, and both heads were milled the same for more static compression). Also, it was impressive to see a good bit more low speed TQ and HP with cam events that clearly would have had just the opposite effect. While some of the peak gains might be dismissed by the bump in cam timing, you have to factor that the bottom would have been hurt by that as well but the smaller more efficient head really strutted its stuff there.
Regarding the lobes I actually recommended something smoother and easier on parts....we could have put an LSL lobe in this build or something even more aggressive but choose not to. I wanted the better valve control and longevity the less aggressive lobes would provide at the expense of a few HP. So while we have more duration, I can assure you the lobes we picked were likely no more aggressive than what was previously installed and perhaps even smoother (less aggressive).....Scott could better answer that potentially.
Like I said....this was never ever discussed as a cylinder head comparison.....it was simply the owner who was working with Scott reaching out to me looking for more power....we discussed a few things, put this package together under serious time constraints, and now you guys are all privied to the results...it's just that simple. To be honest, we could have ran a much bigger cam if we were swinging for the fences btw.....this cam would still drive quite nicely with a good tune....especially with the higher airspeed more efficient design of the heads helping to clean things up on the bottom and are much less prone to reversion issues due to the higher airspeed thru the head. It's more difficult to get a faster moving column of air to back up and change direction.....this is all part of the "goodness" I referred to earlier discussing how small ports that flow alot of air always perform extremely well.
What you have to appreciate is the R&D involved to make that happen because naturally small ports dont want to flow alot of air unless the port/chamber/valvejob design is extremely optimized....the only way a smaller port can flow more is by achieving higher airspeed to accomplish that and getting alot of volume (peak flow) and alot of airspeed is the key to making serious power due to how much better that scenario fills the cylinder. This is a very general and accurate statement as it applies to any type of cylinder head.....not just the LS7's being discussed here.
For those unfamiliar with my background, I headed up the R&D department at AirFlow Research (AFR) and I handled ALL the product design there (cylinder head and intake manifolds) for almost 15 years before going solo in late 2014 and launching Mamo Motorsports. I know a thing or two about cylinder head and manifold design and my philosophy or what works and what doesn't has been proven on many a cylinder head before I started working on these. I mention this for the benefit of those that don't know and haven't followed my career over the last two decades or so.
Anyway.....hope you find some of this info helpful
Cheers,
Tony
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Josh B. (03-19-2016)
03-19-2016, 08:39 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
Tony, before I relieve my HCI 427 of duty (WCCH stage 2 heads, K501 cam, unported MSD/NW102), I'm going to pull the WCCH heads and install your MMS LS7 heads and run it on my local dyno. No retune, no cam swap, no change that creates a rabbit hole for speculators. Just pure A-B results. I have over a dozen pulls on the same dyno, consistently putting down 592-594rwhp and 540-542rwtq, like a swiss watch.
Even thought the MMS heads I'm purchasing are for the RHS 440 (named "The Underwhelmer"
), I'd like to contribute to the knowledge base that these heads will (almost certainly) outflow my existing heads, the mighty WCCH stage 2s. But YOU already know that what the results will be, you've flowbenched both, but I think it would be fun to add some proof in the pudding before the heads go on the 440
Even thought the MMS heads I'm purchasing are for the RHS 440 (named "The Underwhelmer"
), I'd like to contribute to the knowledge base that these heads will (almost certainly) outflow my existing heads, the mighty WCCH stage 2s. But YOU already know that what the results will be, you've flowbenched both, but I think it would be fun to add some proof in the pudding before the heads go on the 440
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MTPZ06 (03-19-2016)
03-20-2016, 08:08 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
Tony, before I relieve my HCI 427 of duty (WCCH stage 2 heads, K501 cam, unported MSD/NW102), I'm going to pull the WCCH heads and install your MMS LS7 heads and run it on my local dyno. No retune, no cam swap, no change that creates a rabbit hole for speculators. Just pure A-B results. I have over a dozen pulls on the same dyno, consistently putting down 592-594rwhp and 540-542rwtq, like a swiss watch.
Even thought the MMS heads I'm purchasing are for the RHS 440 (named "The Underwhelmer"), I'd like to contribute to the knowledge base that these heads will (almost certainly) outflow my existing heads, the mighty WCCH stage 2s. But YOU already know that what the results will be, you've flowbenched both, but I think it would be fun to add some proof in the pudding before the heads go on the 440
Even thought the MMS heads I'm purchasing are for the RHS 440 (named "The Underwhelmer"
), I'd like to contribute to the knowledge base that these heads will (almost certainly) outflow my existing heads, the mighty WCCH stage 2s. But YOU already know that what the results will be, you've flowbenched both, but I think it would be fun to add some proof in the pudding before the heads go on the 440Thanks,
Scott
03-20-2016, 10:29 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
Tony, before I relieve my HCI 427 of duty (WCCH stage 2 heads, K501 cam, unported MSD/NW102), I'm going to pull the WCCH heads and install your MMS LS7 heads and run it on my local dyno. No retune, no cam swap, no change that creates a rabbit hole for speculators. Just pure A-B results. I have over a dozen pulls on the same dyno, consistently putting down 592-594rwhp and 540-542rwtq, like a swiss watch.
Even thought the MMS heads I'm purchasing are for the RHS 440 (named "The Underwhelmer"), I'd like to contribute to the knowledge base that these heads will (almost certainly) outflow my existing heads, the mighty WCCH stage 2s. But YOU already know that what the results will be, you've flowbenched both, but I think it would be fun to add some proof in the pudding before the heads go on the 440
Even thought the MMS heads I'm purchasing are for the RHS 440 (named "The Underwhelmer"
), I'd like to contribute to the knowledge base that these heads will (almost certainly) outflow my existing heads, the mighty WCCH stage 2s. But YOU already know that what the results will be, you've flowbenched both, but I think it would be fun to add some proof in the pudding before the heads go on the 440Question that I dont know the answer:
How do the Trick Flow head flows out the box when compared to stock LS7 casting ported by WCCH, AI, TSP, or any of the like?
I have read that they produce on or around the same ball park power.
Can someone comment on this?
03-20-2016, 11:05 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
These MMS heads are going to really make people rethink their LS7 head options, it's a great time to be an C6Z owner with products as good as these!
Josh
Last edited by Josh B.; 03-20-2016 at 11:06 AM.
03-20-2016, 11:55 AM
#28
Burning Brakes
Hey Scott, 4.185"x4.00". I knew I needed a bigger bore to unshroud the valves, so it was down to the large bore options (ERL, RHS, Dart, LSX). I like the piston Oil squirters, I think they will help with engine longevity, so I chose RHS. I haven't scrutinized the weight numbers, but I don't think the RHS/TFS combo is going to weigh much more than OEM, maybe 15lbs. But that is bulk in "all the right places", as they say in anatomy.
These MMS heads are going to really make people rethink their LS7 head options, it's a great time to be an C6Z owner with products as good as these!
Josh
These MMS heads are going to really make people rethink their LS7 head options, it's a great time to be an C6Z owner with products as good as these!
Josh
I am road tracking my car with more frequency and I am very focused on weight reduction. adding 15 lbs. to the nose would be a deal killer for me. Are you targeting a specific power level with your build?
Thanks,
Scott
Last edited by Bad_AX; 03-20-2016 at 01:41 PM.
03-21-2016, 07:33 AM
#30
Melting Slicks
Subscribed
03-21-2016, 09:08 AM
#31
Melting Slicks
4.185 Bore
I have an ERL 4.185 bore in an NA motor for 5 years seems to work fine. The stroke is a little longer at 4.125. Just make sure when you put ARP studs on and use their special assembly lube as I have found when torquing the bolts you almost do not need to go back and retorque them (after a heat cycle) as with regular oil I had too. Also go with the good cometic gaskets.
04-18-2016, 07:22 PM
#34
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Im shipping a dozen or so sets in the next 2-6 weeks....most of these are going to be brand new combinations. Doing back to back cylinder head testing is a big endeavor and right now I certainly dont have the time (or the access to a bunch of different heads to test).
The independent results that roll out will have to be judged on their own merit but based on the twenty or so years I have been doing this (designing cylinder heads), I expect most of the results to stand out relative to the aggressiveness and other aspects of the overall combo which would effect the net results.
While not a true apples to apples test (the one featured in this thread), its pretty damn good when you consider it was the same car, the same tuner, the same dyno, and the same compression ratio. A bump of 6 degrees or so on the cam (the only difference in this test which btw was never meant to be a "test") accounted for a much smaller percentage of the gains I assure you. Most guys with real world engine and dyno experience would agree with me.
If you have the time to wait, you will see quite a few independent results posted here in the next few months that Im reasonably confident will leave you impressed....if your looking to move sooner than that you will be forced to rely on my reputation, accomplishments in the past, and all the years I have been honing my craft.....which is really just a Google search away for those who haven't followed my career the last couple of decades. If your familiar with AFR (AirFlow Research), I designed every cylinder head and intake manifold you see in their 2015 catalog and I think most people are familiar with the fact ALL their products perform extremely well and are usually at the top of the heap in various magazine and Internet shootouts.
-Tony
PS....If you would like to discuss a personal project your embarking on soon and are giving consideration to the new heads I have, feel free to email, PM, or call and we can discuss it in greater detail. I think you will feel alot more comfortable if you do!
The independent results that roll out will have to be judged on their own merit but based on the twenty or so years I have been doing this (designing cylinder heads), I expect most of the results to stand out relative to the aggressiveness and other aspects of the overall combo which would effect the net results.
While not a true apples to apples test (the one featured in this thread), its pretty damn good when you consider it was the same car, the same tuner, the same dyno, and the same compression ratio. A bump of 6 degrees or so on the cam (the only difference in this test which btw was never meant to be a "test") accounted for a much smaller percentage of the gains I assure you. Most guys with real world engine and dyno experience would agree with me.
If you have the time to wait, you will see quite a few independent results posted here in the next few months that Im reasonably confident will leave you impressed....if your looking to move sooner than that you will be forced to rely on my reputation, accomplishments in the past, and all the years I have been honing my craft.....which is really just a Google search away for those who haven't followed my career the last couple of decades. If your familiar with AFR (AirFlow Research), I designed every cylinder head and intake manifold you see in their 2015 catalog and I think most people are familiar with the fact ALL their products perform extremely well and are usually at the top of the heap in various magazine and Internet shootouts.
-Tony
PS....If you would like to discuss a personal project your embarking on soon and are giving consideration to the new heads I have, feel free to email, PM, or call and we can discuss it in greater detail. I think you will feel alot more comfortable if you do!
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Random84 (04-26-2016)
04-19-2016, 09:23 AM
#35
Just some more info on what Tony has posted. I did all the work originally on the car and then the changes. The car has forged pistons and rods, so it isn't a stock bottom end LS7. The cam I originally had in it was a 231/247 .653/661 114LSA 110ICL, that was replaced with a 238/252 .652/.652 114LSA 113ICL. As he said, the car has an unported FAST intake and 1-7/8" headers. I'm sure there are gains to be had with 2" headers and a ported MSD, but the FAST is plumbed up with a direct port fogger and the customer doesn't want to redo the nitrous setup.
The car gets tracked a good bit and we'll have some actual ET differences we can associate with the dyno graph in the near future. The car is much more crisp now and has excellent low speed manners, which I would attribute to the higher velocity of the new heads. This was my first project with Tony and I'm impressed with the quality of his work.
The car gets tracked a good bit and we'll have some actual ET differences we can associate with the dyno graph in the near future. The car is much more crisp now and has excellent low speed manners, which I would attribute to the higher velocity of the new heads. This was my first project with Tony and I'm impressed with the quality of his work.
04-29-2016, 08:17 AM
#37
Not that there is any connection between the LS1/2's that Tony did back in the past and the LS7's today but Tony was an expert at getting not only some of the best peak power numbers but by FAR the best power under the curve. He really did amazing things with the cathedral port heads on the smaller LS applications. If I recall, he was able to generate more torque from a number of 402/416 combinations than what we see with fully built LS7's today.
04-29-2016, 02:49 PM
#40
Race Director
