[Z06] BTR Stg3 & Mamo MSD Low HP Numbers??
04-13-2017, 10:02 AM
#41
Race Director
I think real knock from milling heads to much, to high compression ratio. Mike should be able to tell you duty cycles of injectors that will give you an idea even if they are about maxed out if the air fuel ratio is good I dont think you would be picking up knock from that.
04-13-2017, 10:02 AM
#42
Those numbers seem a bit low. Just as a reference my mods/numbers:
BTR Stage 3
AHP Heads (No porting or milling)
Texas Speed 1-7/8" Long Tubes
Airraid Intake
541whp, 505wtq on Dynojet
BTR Stage 3
AHP Heads (No porting or milling)
Texas Speed 1-7/8" Long Tubes
Airraid Intake
541whp, 505wtq on Dynojet
04-13-2017, 10:04 AM
#43
Race Director
Here are just a few I can name off hand...
08 G8 3x,xxx miles Ran for 3 mos and detonation killed a couple rod bearings.. Car engine was replaced and new tuner after warning the owner discovered the issue. Now issue free.
2006 GTO 8,XXX miles with roots style blower had too much timing and it damaged internals forcing a rebuild. Now issue free with new tuner.
2015 ZL1 Camaro - No damage but wouldn't idle properly. WOT AF was lean at times. Re-tuned by another tuner. Now issue free.
2002 Camaro SS. Car wouldn't idle properly. Died after nearly every pull. Taken to a new tuner. Found TB drilled...... Retuned. Now issue free.
Countless cars he tuned when he worked for Raymond's Performance had idle issues and had to be re-tuned. << Call and ask Bruce Raymond about him. I'm quite sure he can be much more detailed. He no longer tunes for that shop. Thats not even going into the details of how he was moonlighting out of the shop with their customers.
You can say cars run fine (and maybe a few do. I havent seen them) with the guy but I wouldn't trust him to tune up my lawn mower. Take it for what it's worth.
08 G8 3x,xxx miles Ran for 3 mos and detonation killed a couple rod bearings.. Car engine was replaced and new tuner after warning the owner discovered the issue. Now issue free.
2006 GTO 8,XXX miles with roots style blower had too much timing and it damaged internals forcing a rebuild. Now issue free with new tuner.
2015 ZL1 Camaro - No damage but wouldn't idle properly. WOT AF was lean at times. Re-tuned by another tuner. Now issue free.
2002 Camaro SS. Car wouldn't idle properly. Died after nearly every pull. Taken to a new tuner. Found TB drilled...... Retuned. Now issue free.
Countless cars he tuned when he worked for Raymond's Performance had idle issues and had to be re-tuned. << Call and ask Bruce Raymond about him. I'm quite sure he can be much more detailed. He no longer tunes for that shop. Thats not even going into the details of how he was moonlighting out of the shop with their customers.
You can say cars run fine (and maybe a few do. I havent seen them) with the guy but I wouldn't trust him to tune up my lawn mower. Take it for what it's worth.
04-13-2017, 10:08 AM
#45
Pro
Thread Starter
I think real knock from milling heads to much, to high compression ratio. Mike should be able to tell you duty cycles of injectors that will give you an idea even if they are about maxed out if the air fuel ratio is good I dont think you would be picking up knock from that.
04-13-2017, 10:28 AM
#46
Instructor
Maybe the easiest/cheapest thing to do is run a couple tanks of gas through it and go back for a redyno, looks like you are happy with the drivability/power just low dyno #s. Mike suggested bad gas, so I would rule that out first then go back fishing for other causes if your numbers do not improve (injectors, etc--all mentioned above). There was an article on top gas stations to go for high performance cars, if I track it down I will PM your way. I agree, ripping off the intake to go back to stock doesn't make much sense to me, lots of posts where guys have big improvements on the mamo msd.
04-13-2017, 10:33 AM
#47
Race Director
The injectors might be maxed out then, but if the AFR is good I dont see why they would cause knock. I have heard that if the headers are hitting the car somewhere that will cause knock, make sure that is not the case.
04-13-2017, 10:50 AM
#48
Pro
No offense to anyone, but you don't do dyno tuning on last season's fuel, and then scratch your head as to why it's knocking. Get some fresh 93 in there, and try again...even though I think there is more going on than just lower octane fuel, you have to start there. The heads are NOT milled too much. That cam will work with a .030" mill just fine. Also, the stock injectors have been proven large enough for 600rwhp, so they are fine as well. Cats could be clogged...I've seen bad tunes cook them in no time flat (not saying your tune is bad). It is worth inspecting them.
That cam can make 600rwhp SAE with the right setup, but not without ported heads and everything else optimized.
That cam can make 600rwhp SAE with the right setup, but not without ported heads and everything else optimized.
04-13-2017, 10:57 AM
#49
Team Owner
Only way it is out of injector is if the fuel pump is dieing and not maintaining pressure.
His car is some magic car that runs out of injector at 550rwhp when every other Z around makes 600rwhp without injector issues.
His car is some magic car that runs out of injector at 550rwhp when every other Z around makes 600rwhp without injector issues.
04-13-2017, 10:58 AM
#50
Pro
Thread Starter
Maybe the easiest/cheapest thing to do is run a couple tanks of gas through it and go back for a redyno, looks like you are happy with the drivability/power just low dyno #s. Mike suggested bad gas, so I would rule that out first then go back fishing for other causes if your numbers do not improve (injectors, etc--all mentioned above). There was an article on top gas stations to go for high performance cars, if I track it down I will PM your way. I agree, ripping off the intake to go back to stock doesn't make much sense to me, lots of posts where guys have big improvements on the mamo msd.
No offense to anyone, but you don't do dyno tuning on last season's fuel, and then scratch your head as to why it's knocking. Get some fresh 93 in there, and try again...even though I think there is more going on than just lower octane fuel, you have to start there. The heads are NOT milled too much. That cam will work with a .030" mill just fine. Also, the stock injectors have been proven large enough for 600rwhp, so they are fine as well. Cats could be clogged...I've seen bad tunes cook them in no time flat (not saying your tune is bad). It is worth inspecting them.
That cam can make 600rwhp SAE with the right setup, but not without ported heads and everything else optimized.
That cam can make 600rwhp SAE with the right setup, but not without ported heads and everything else optimized.
04-13-2017, 11:05 AM
#51
Team Owner
That cam/setup will not max out the injectors at your level, so I would say that is a waste of time.
Check for vacuum leaks, especially with the MSD. Check pushrod length for proper preload. Check for loose parts, and rattles that could cause knock.
Check for vacuum leaks, especially with the MSD. Check pushrod length for proper preload. Check for loose parts, and rattles that could cause knock.
04-13-2017, 11:29 AM
#52
Pro
Thread Starter
04-13-2017, 11:33 AM
#53
Pro
I ran all the old fuel out before and filled up with some fresh 93 right before I dropped it off to him, so I guess there could have been a chance of having some old still left in there. I will try and get the cats off this weekend and see what they look like. Would I benifit at all from going to a larger injector at this point to save having to retune again later if it makes the power it should?
Like Unreal said, leave your injectors. It is just one more variable that will get tossed in, while trying to resolve your issue. They just aren't needed below 600rwhp, as long as you are maintaining 4 bar fuel pressure at the rail.
04-13-2017, 11:46 AM
#54
Racer
Sub'd.
I'm planning on taking my car to Mike's to have him install my Mamo Trick Flow heads, cam, MSD, headers and everything else and tune my car. Now I'm kind of nervous. It's hard to find a shop that will install parts that you got from somewhere else.
Good luck on figuring it out.
I'm planning on taking my car to Mike's to have him install my Mamo Trick Flow heads, cam, MSD, headers and everything else and tune my car. Now I'm kind of nervous. It's hard to find a shop that will install parts that you got from somewhere else.
Good luck on figuring it out.
04-13-2017, 12:18 PM
#55
Power is down for that combination of components. Could be one thing, or a combination of several small things. Might just be the calibration. Without seeing a log file of the run, you are just throwing darts blindfolded. I'd like to see total spark and wideband data. Those two data points will tell you if it's the tuning or if you have a mechanical shortcoming.
OE injectors cannot support 600whp, unless scr is 12:1 and afr is 12.5, and total spark is +22. Mathematically impossible. It has to do with the chemical energy of gas and quantity consumed.
The headers are not optimal. Cats are questionable. How the valve seat was cut is an unknown.
I'd start with the tue, and see if you can find someone with a wideband and HPT or EFI Live. Go for a drive and log it.
OE injectors cannot support 600whp, unless scr is 12:1 and afr is 12.5, and total spark is +22. Mathematically impossible. It has to do with the chemical energy of gas and quantity consumed.
The headers are not optimal. Cats are questionable. How the valve seat was cut is an unknown.
I'd start with the tue, and see if you can find someone with a wideband and HPT or EFI Live. Go for a drive and log it.
04-13-2017, 12:26 PM
#56
Drifting
585 rwhp 82 percent injector at max wot....my cats fell apart and clogged mufflers....look for un equal flow exhaust at tips...methanol kit got me 17rwhp and I run 2 bottles of cheap octane boost every tank of 93...used injectors 60lb I just bought here for 225 dollars....
04-13-2017, 12:39 PM
#57
Pro
Thread Starter
Power is down for that combination of components. Could be one thing, or a combination of several small things. Might just be the calibration. Without seeing a log file of the run, you are just throwing darts blindfolded. I'd like to see total spark and wideband data. Those two data points will tell you if it's the tuning or if you have a mechanical shortcoming.
OE injectors cannot support 600whp, unless scr is 12:1 and afr is 12.5, and total spark is +22. Mathematically impossible. It has to do with the chemical energy of gas and quantity consumed.
The headers are not optimal. Cats are questionable. How the valve seat was cut is an unknown.
I'd start with the tue, and see if you can find someone with a wideband and HPT or EFI Live. Go for a drive and log it.
OE injectors cannot support 600whp, unless scr is 12:1 and afr is 12.5, and total spark is +22. Mathematically impossible. It has to do with the chemical energy of gas and quantity consumed.
The headers are not optimal. Cats are questionable. How the valve seat was cut is an unknown.
I'd start with the tue, and see if you can find someone with a wideband and HPT or EFI Live. Go for a drive and log it.
I think I am going to start with checking the cats, and pulling the intake off to make sure the clamshell bolts are all tight, at least to eliminate those variables for now.
04-13-2017, 12:50 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Mar 2011
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 1,078
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St. Jude Donor '13
Subscribing. Make sure the lines on the oil tank aren't reversed or you will lose a bunch of power via oil ingestion.,...I did that. I pulled the intake to see what was going on since I had to pull timing on my tune at WOT only and everything was soaking wet with oil near the heads and dry everywhere else in the intake.
04-13-2017, 02:06 PM
#59
Pro
Thread Starter
Subscribing. Make sure the lines on the oil tank aren't reversed or you will lose a bunch of power via oil ingestion.,...I did that. I pulled the intake to see what was going on since I had to pull timing on my tune at WOT only and everything was soaking wet with oil near the heads and dry everywhere else in the intake.
Do I need to fully remove the intake and check the clamshell bolts or just the 10 that hold it to the head?
04-13-2017, 02:12 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Rochester NY
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2018 C6 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '10, '17
I just installed a Mamo MSD, NW TB and Halltech MF108. I picked up about 35rwhp and 40 lb-ft tq after a re-tune. I am at 570/520 now. My cam is not a big one. 227/239 duration @ .050 lift - .678/.688 lift with 1.8 rocker 114 CL. I also have LG headers. I did not run out of injector. The difference after I installed the 3 items above and re-tuned is noticeable. I will know more once I get her back on the track on Monday.
I agree with others on checking the cats, checking all the lines and ensuring that the manifold is torqued properly. In fact, I would take it all apart and put it back together again. No way I would go back to stock. Ultimately though, your enjoyment is all that matters, not a number on a manufactured dyno sheet.
I agree with others on checking the cats, checking all the lines and ensuring that the manifold is torqued properly. In fact, I would take it all apart and put it back together again. No way I would go back to stock. Ultimately though, your enjoyment is all that matters, not a number on a manufactured dyno sheet.