Lorenzo Serra

Hi guys,

I've recently heard back from Blackstone stating an unusually high level of Titanium (12ppm) on only 1,400 Miles' oil.

I'm very concerned because I'm aware that 2012/3 LS7s are prone to connecting rods issues and mine seems likely to be showing some weakness.

In short the hardness coating that protects the titanium wears off and the Titanium rods rub against each other and start destroying themselve!

My engine is overall running strong but I do have the main recurring symptom of it slow/rough cranking but only when hot.

The engine only has 2,5k miles and most of the engines that have the rod issue fail between 3 and 5k miles So I'm definitely in the danger zone.

I've called my local dealers and they all stated that I'm out of luck basically since I'm out of warranty and cannot purchase GMPP with any of them.

What fix would you guys recommend?

I was thinking as follow:
-New updated GM connecting rods
-Katech street attack pistons
-Clevite 77 bearings
-ARP rod bolts


Tomorrow I'll do an oil change and inspect the oil filter and keep you guys posted.

I'd like to thank VertC6 and Dan_the_C5_man for helping me out with this frustrating issue. You guys rock!

I've attached the Oil analysis to the Thread.

Thanks!

-Lorenzo

Mordeth

I would not recommend any "fix". And you certainly should not be tearing into the bottom end of your motor due to 12ppm titanium. If someone on here is telling you otherwise then they are giving you horrible advice. People freak out over Blackstone reports and make changes when they shouldn't be. Blackstone is a very useful tool, and I use them regularly but I do not freak out over a one time reading.

You monitor the wear by sending in a report each oil change and look for any changes or something significantly out of whack.

MTPZ06

Whats the original "in service date" on your 2013? The GM powertrain warranty is 5 yrs/100K miles.

You can still purchase a GMEPP to my knowledge. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-increase.html

psp6158

is there any data to support that engines have blown up with this low reading?

Mordeth

I am pretty sure he is on an OEM engine swap under warranty Mike. I think his car is a 2012 and the motor was swapped for a new one in 2013 under warranty.

Lorenzo Serra

That's correct. I own a 2012 EU centennial edition and its original engine was replaced August 2016 under GMPP. I bought the car from a private party and the EU GM dealers aren't willing to offer GMPP. I was also told that the EU GM warranty on replaced engine covers only its first year

My best best is to get in touch with GM US customer servide and see how they can help. Customer service in EU is a joke.

2FastCorvette4U

Another my LS7 blow up thread lol... People need to relax.

MTPZ06

Ahh....gotcha, thanks.


Well...technically, his first motor did.

Lorenzo Serra

Here she stands--->

Mordeth

Lorenzo. You don't need to rebuild the bottom end of a basically brand new motor due to 12ppm titanium reported from your first reading to Blackstone. Is someone telling you otherwise? Please do not embark on this quest.

The only thing you should be worrying about are your heads. Have they been fixed?

Do you know what is involved in rebuilding the bottom end of your motor? (which there is very likely nothing wrong with)

Here, I will give you a primer:

- Motor must come out of car and be disassembled
- Katech "street" attack pistons are not in stock. Expect a 6-8 week wait minimum
- Cylinder walls will need to be bored 5 over to accept these pistons. The Katech (which are actually Mahle) pistons are for a 4.13" bore. Your bore is 4.125". So you must bore the walls 5 over so they fit. Then they need to be re-honed using a torque plate and the bore measured again for proper clearance to the new pistons and rings
- New rods will need to be likely sent to Katech if you are going to replace the bearings (why would you do this to new rods?)
- Crank will have to be re-balanced to offset the lighter weight of the new pistons. This means it will need to be placed on a special machine meant to balance the rotating assembly for weight, and therefore it will need to be drilled to remove material (weight) to account for the lighter pistons. All parts (rods, pistons, bolts, crank etc) must be weighed in order to re-balance the rotating assembly
- The new pistons will likely change your compression ratio. Do you know the valve relief? OEM pistons have a dish volume of 5.3cc. (-5.3cc for a piston measurement as these are not domes)
- Katech's pistons do not come with rings. You still need to purchase the correct rings.

Do you have a competent mechanic that can pull the motor? Do you have a competent machine shop that can machine your block and re-balance the rotating assembly? Do you have thousands and thousands of extra dollars that you feel like pissing down the toilet over a 12ppm titanium reading from your first Blackstone report on a new motor????????? Who are you talking to on these forums or otherwise that is telling you this?

I am getting ready to pull my motor to rebuild it. I have done it before and trust me it is not fun. The car is raced and I only do it when I must. It most certainly would not be pulled and rebuilt for a 12ppm titanium reading when it is a brand new motor that isn't even broken in!!!!!!

Just drive your car and enjoy and do not fret so much. Send another Blackstone sample in at your next oil change and see if anything has changed.

1qwkc6z06

I'm not sure if people are just over paranoid with these cars or what but it seems like it is always something with these damn cars! Fix the valve guides and exhaust valves and enjoy the damn thing!

Dirty Howie

I agree with the sentiment above about not panicking over the BS report. Please post the entire report so we can see other possible wear. You could look up my BS reports from my first Z06 ('08). Blew my first motor but had 10's of thousands of miles on my next motor with high titanium readings (don't remember exactly the numbers). My current Z06 though has zero titanium.

I would do more frequent changes and see if there is a trend. Maybe it was higher before and now trending down.

Lastly although I don't know whats available in EU don't rule out an after market warranty which you should be able to get based on your low milage. I got mine from VehicleOne and its completely covered items such as water pump and complete differential. It has paid for itself more than twice over already and my dealer says it will cover heads if out of spec and motor if it blows.


DH

Dan_the_C5_Man

Can't speak for others, but I didn't say "rebuild your bottom end based solely on the oil analysis". I told him (and this isn't an original thought, it's a documented fact) that these 2013 engines (and possibly 2012''s as well) have a clear history of bottom-end failures.

Anyone that understands the construction and materials used in these engines understands that Ti (that is Ti shed from engine compnents, not from other sources such as oil additives) only comes from the rods, never the valves (there has never been a documented history of valve stem wear, even in the most severe guide wear cases).. The CrN coating is for all practical purposes bullet-proof in this application.

The rods, although similarly coated, are subjected to significant friction (in the case of the well-documented 2013 engine issues), along with a (negative) change in bearing material (coated vs. lead).

This is yet another reason (in a long list of reasons) why I always recommend against extended warranties for the valve guide issue and always encourage members to have their heads fixed, even if it's at their own expense. Besides the pain and heartache of having a motor blow up in your car and having the car down for months at a time, the engine you'll receive as a replacement (all built in 2013 at this point) has a potential for other issues. Much better strategy to retain your pre-2013 engine, keep it alive than rolling the dice and potentially ending up with an inferior build.

In the OP's case as long as he's stock, e.g. no headers, and he has a fresh battery, there really shouldn't be any significant difference between hot and cold cranking - slow hot cranking is a well-documented indicator that he might have a failing engine due to rods and or botttom end bearing problems. He's in an especially difficult spot being overseas.

My advice to the OP was that IF it turns out to have a failing motor, he should press GM very hard to help offset the repair costs. Think about it; it would be the third motor in this car - that's ridiculous.

Mordeth

Much thanks for the explanation Dan. Makes more sense now. I am aware of the chromium nitrate coating on the rods failing on some 2013s causing the rods to rub. But I am not rebuilding the bottom end of a motor due to a 12ppm titanium report on a first Blackstone reading, especially with random parts and little research on the proper way to install them. This was my only point.

Is there any loss of or low oil pressure at idle or when cold Lorenzo? If the rods are rubbing the titanium will be everywhere. How many miles are on the new motor? The pan can be pulled and inspected before the entire motor is ripped out for a rebuild. Also, hard hot cranking/starting can be caused by other reasons as well. The starter could be on it's way out. The solenoid could be failing. His "new" battery could be bad.

I am pretty sure that GM knows, from the build date and engine code of the motor, whether his rods were part of the defect. I would also attempt to pursue it that way as well. If it can be determined that he in fact has those bad rods then I 100% agree that he should make a concerted effort to press on GM before throwing parts at it.

subfloor@centurytrans

The problem mentioned with 2013 motors is in fact a real one as I've pulled apart several and have seen it first hand.

While rebuilding your engine may seem extreme based on one oil analysis report, I also wouldn't recommend that you just ignore it and hope for the best. My suggestion is a little labor intensive but will let you get an idea as to how extensive (or not) the issue actually is.

What I recommend doing is to drop the front subframe, pull the oil pan and windage tray and then measure the side to side clearance of the rods in relation to each other. I don't have the GM specs in front of me but I seem to remember the acceptable gap being something fairly small in the range of .003" to .031". Anything more and you'll know you have a rod problem without having to take anything additional apart in the motor other than what I've already mentioned.

In the ones I've worked on with the issues the clearances have been all over the road map. In some all 8 rods were shot whereas others you would have one pair of rods still within spec but the adjacent pair had an insane amount of clearance.

To do this the motor does not need to come out of the car and I can post all the steps required if you decide to take this path.

Good luck either way with whatever you decide to do.

Lorenzo Serra

I highly appreciate all you guys' responses; They are invaluable and very supportive.

I've done her 3rd oil change since new and installed a new battery and I no longer have hot cranking issues at this point. This was definitely a relief.

I've also carefully monitored my oil pressure and it seems healthy. It's running at about 25 PSI when hot a idle and about 53 PSI at high way speeds on 6th gear.

My plan is to run the engine for 1,000km and send again an oil sample to Blackstone and see where we stand. I'm very much hoping to see a down trending pattern but in the meantime, I'm shopping around for a third party engine warranty for 1 year coverage.

I'll also ask the mechanic to inspect the rods and measure their clearance in the future depending on the next oil analysis results. How long does it take you guys approximately Subflloor to inspect rods?

I'll keep you guys updated!

Thanks!

subfloor@centurytrans

I just had to do it last weekend and it took me about 4 hours doing it in my garage on jackstands.

Unfortunately decent oil pressure is not always indicative of everything being healthy. Case in point, the picture shown below is of four spun bearings that I just pulled out of my motor, yet I was still getting no less than 20psi after making a pass at the track when the oil temps were up in the 220-230 degree range.

jarcher

I had an oil lab test come back with 9ppm Ti, pulled the motor and 2 rods had chewed through the anti friction coating. Just finished doing my rebuild this summer.

EDIT: Just saw your post above... bad news! but good instinct on pulling it apart.

Lorenzo Serra

Not so much... A new 427 owner with only 7k miles just blew up! These damn 2013 engines are a problem; it;s not an urban legend.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...t-owner-2.html

Lorenzo Serra

Thank you for sharing!

What was the approximate mileage on the oil sample and what parts did you choose for your build?

Thanks!