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C6 Corvette ZR1 & Z06General info about GM’s Corvette Supercar, LS9 Corvette Technical Info, Performance Upgrades, Suspension Setup for Street or Track
Hi all, I would like to share with the Corvette forum community a very bad experience we got for our heads rebuilt at Livernois Motorsport. This situation cost us alot of money, alot of headaches and also this cost us our racing season. Heads will be back from AHP next week or so. Since 28th july 2017 we are in process with those guides swap !!! Big thumbs up to Kohle and Jake from AHP.
Hindsight is 20/20, but why did you make this complicated and use one company's product (AHP) but have another company do the work (Livernois) when AHP could have done it all for you in one shot?
Hindsight is 20/20, but why did you make this complicated and use one company's product (AHP) but have another company do the work (Livernois) when AHP could have done it all for you in one shot?
Yes I get your point of view, we thought about it as well. We had previous work done with Livernois including their porting job on each of our LS7 heads and generally speaking it was a good experience. We wanted to further support Livernois Motorsports and be loyal customers
We are definitely kicking ourselves over that decision now. We did ask Livernois prior to doing the work if they felt comfortable and they said it would be no problem. No one, other than Dave from livernois as reached out to me nor Seb to see if we can make any kind of arrangement. I requested numerous times to climb the chain of command and to speak with someone who is able to make decisions, and was always denied that.
After speaking with Dave yesterday as he called me at closing time, as he was aware I wanted a answer by the end of the day before going public, it was suggested that he once again, couldnt not get a solid answer from his boss and he didn't feel confident he was going to change his mind. Dave then told me as far as going public, "you got to do what's right for you" and thanked me for my previous work and was truly sorry this turned out this way.
Well im sorry for this had a same experience with lg never again ever....some vendor's work 100% with customers those vendors don't look at the money part they focus solely on the customer....but hey you tried no budge so move on.....good luck and god bless....
Unfortunately the portrait being painted doesn't take into account some aspects that were discussed off email, or take into account some other items we are seeing even in these posts. 3 different people measured and got 3 different measurements.
I think this right here should be noted first and foremost as it's relevant to the entire conversation.
Not only are different techniques being used, different tooling, in different conditions are as well. All 3 of these impact results in measurements varying just by themselves, but combine all 3 and the variables expound on each other.
However, this doesn't bring to light another issue. We were never once given a chance to fix these, or even confirm the information being relayed to us by allowing us to inspect the products. Basically the heads were shipped off to someone else, and we were told that we were expected to foot the bill or refund 100% of the charges.
I am not sure why these would not have been sent back to us for inspection or repair. That's pretty standard operating in any business. If labor was provided, and there was a problem, the only way to warranty anything is by returning it for inspection.
We were puzzled why someone that worked with us for years all of a sudden wouldn't even let us have the heads back to look it.
Additionally, our warranty was always offered up to the point someone else worked on the heads. We stand behind what we do, and if we do something incorrectly we make it right, but we have to be given the chance to do so. It's like buying a GM with a warranty, but you took it to a Ford dealer for service and want GM to pay for the work performed.
We were puzzled why someone that worked with us for years all of a sudden wouldn't even let us have the heads back to look it.
.
???
My guess is because you screwed them over, didn't admit your mistake, said there's nothing you can do, had no intention of ever giving them their money back or fixing the problem with new parts, and already wasted valuable months of their lives during peak racing season.
Unfortunately the portrait being painted doesn't take into account some aspects that were discussed off email, or take into account some other items we are seeing even in these posts. 3 different people measured and got 3 different measurements.
I think this right here should be noted first and foremost as it's relevant to the entire conversation.
Not only are different techniques being used, different tooling, in different conditions are as well. All 3 of these impact results in measurements varying just by themselves, but combine all 3 and the variables expound on each other.
However, this doesn't bring to light another issue. We were never once given a chance to fix these, or even confirm the information being relayed to us by allowing us to inspect the products. Basically the heads were shipped off to someone else, and we were told that we were expected to foot the bill or refund 100% of the charges.
I am not sure why these would not have been sent back to us for inspection or repair. That's pretty standard operating in any business. If labor was provided, and there was a problem, the only way to warranty anything is by returning it for inspection.
We were puzzled why someone that worked with us for years all of a sudden wouldn't even let us have the heads back to look it.
Additionally, our warranty was always offered up to the point someone else worked on the heads. We stand behind what we do, and if we do something incorrectly we make it right, but we have to be given the chance to do so. It's like buying a GM with a warranty, but you took it to a Ford dealer for service and want GM to pay for the work performed.
What you are saying is purely false. My head where send back to you. By that time Dave Amedhury tell me that he really don't even know what to do with those heads anymore cause they are 100% correct as per Eric from you'Re heads departments. So I call back fedex to intercept the heads and rerouting them to AHP.
By the same time, before James heads leave you'Re facility, James spoke an hour + with Dave to double check his set that sit on Livernois bench before to ship them. He discussed over the phone about what I have found and he was really worried about his set. Dave told him you're set are perfect and ready to go !!!
When me and Kohle measure James heads, they where in fact worst then mine on the bottom of the guides at 0.0038'' +
And since the beginning of this story, you guys are hiding behind Dave Amedhury refusing to spoke with us as per our many request.
We asked for specific clearance and also straight guides. You gives us twice and mostly triple clearances with and hour glass shape. You guys have ruined 32 moldstar 90 guides that you never offered us to pay at least !!!
Funny how fast you jumped into this post after I post the link on you'Re facebook page. And this is also funny how fast you removed my post on the visitors comment from the same facebook page !!!
You know what else I find funny Seb? The fact that I reached out, and did everything I could not to post on the forum. Whoever keeps up the posts for Livernois on here, was reached out to by me without any response. I mentioned as a warning that I would, or we I should say go public. But again, Only Dave is trying to put out the flames. Now out of nowhere someone else decides to have a voice. Shouldn't have taken all of this. As mad, upset, frustrated, heartbroken I was, I gave you guys respect and time to make it right. No one offered us a thing, not a portion back, not our guides, not a offer to cover some of AHP's bill. Never was apologized to and offered to send my heads back and have them done right....just denial. Only when I provided proof that they were bad, and being taken care of by American Heritage, that anyone wants to say no...thats not the way it works you need to let us make it right. You never wanted to make it right.....face it. You continue to BS me on measurements and have yet to back them up like we did with anything solid. It reminds me of when I was told the stage 3 porting heads flow 391-250 and after the job we asked almost 5 or 6 times flow the flow chart that we paid for by the way.....finally get a flow chart yet now see 388 (close enough) but then 226cfm on the ex rather than 250 as advertised.
You know what else I find funny Seb? The fact that I reached out, and did everything I could not to post on the forum. Whoever keeps up the posts for Livernois on here, was reached out to by me without any response. I mentioned as a warning that I would, or we I should say go public. But again, Only Dave is trying to put out the flames. Now out of nowhere someone else decides to have a voice. Shouldn't have taken all of this. As mad, upset, frustrated, heartbroken I was, I gave you guys respect and time to make it right. No one offered us a thing, not a portion back, not our guides, not a offer to cover some of AHP's bill. Never was apologized to and offered to send my heads back and have them done right....just denial. Only when I provided proof that they were bad, and being taken care of by American Heritage, that anyone wants to say no...thats not the way it works you need to let us make it right. You never wanted to make it right.....face it. You continue to BS me on measurements and have yet to back them up like we did with anything solid. It reminds me of when I was told the stage 3 porting heads flow 391-250 and after the job we asked almost 5 or 6 times flow the flow chart that we paid for by the way.....finally get a flow chart yet now see 388 (close enough) but then 226cfm on the ex rather than 250 as advertised.
You guys getting any revised port work, or just getting the MS90 guides redone at AHP?
IMO the right thing to do would be to refund them a good portion of the money.
if they refunded my entire bill and the guides they clearly messed up.
id still be out 289.21 in duty fees
id still be out roughly 400 or so on shipping
2 hrs travel to cross border pick up and return with fuel
probably closing in on 160-200$ of long distance cell phone calls talking to both livernois about the problem and to both Jake and Kohle on that at American Heritage, and then how we could about fixing that.
Not to mention losing the season
Their story keeps going in circles since the beginning. Haven't back up a word said. We've back up everything discussed. This is pretty black and white and if we didn't live 10hr and 20hrs away from them we would have went down in person with our heads in hand with Seb giving them a lesson on how to measure. probably would walked away would 2 decent job offers lol.
Real sorry to hear this. I think the right thing to do, at a minimum, is for the shop to refund 100% of the labor charges as the installation was clearly botched. I realize it wouldn't cover all of your costs, nor time completely wasted, but it would be a start and would show a good faith effort on the part of the shop to try to at least partially make this right. All the shop would lose in this case is their time, and they would protect their reputation. A smart move on their part to do it. They could even not admit fault (to protect their credibility) but simply refund the labor as a professional courtesy and for good will.
Clearly in a perfect world they would make you completely whole, but it doesn't appear this is happening. Ask for the labor charges back (which appear to be $1280) and call it a day (unless you are planning to take them to court which probably isn't worth it).
Real sorry to hear this. I think the right thing to do, at a minimum, is for the shop to refund 100% of the labor charges as the installation was clearly botched. I realize it wouldn't cover all of your costs, nor time completely wasted, but it would be a start and would show a good faith effort on the part of the shop to try to at least partially make this right. All the shop would lose in this case is their time, and they would protect their reputation. A smart move on their part to do it. They could even not admit fault (to protect their credibility) but simply refund the labor as a professional courtesy and for good will.
Clearly in a perfect world they would make you completely whole, but it doesn't appear this is happening. Ask for the labor charges back (which appear to be $1280) and call it a day (unless you are planning to take them to court which probably isn't worth it).
Thank you.
there is a few more details missing here.
1. theres 2 sets of heads with 2 bills.
2. we paid and shipped them 1100 worth of guides that they ruined.
3. i got work done from them in 2015. they did their stage 3 cnc program on the heads. Nowhere on the build sheet nor the invoice do I see that they replaced my stock oem hollow stem valves with a much heavier valve. I will provide proof if needed just not easy from my cell atm. That being said, last yr I swapped cams and spring to get into a more aggresive setup aiming for 9s on the 1/4. not knowing my valves were SS and weighed 94g instead of 73g we set spring tension accordingly. Once I started my season last yr, I experienced a massive bog in the higher RPMs. Seb and I spent all of 2016 and then beginning of 2017 digging for it. I replaced everything from the fuel pump, injectors, plugs,wires, maf, crank sensor, cam sensor, played with length of the pushrods, then pulled heads inspected, all looked good. put a fresh set of lifters, still bogging. then this yr 2017, throw the stock cam back in and run it went 10.55 on the 2nd pass no more bog. We shipped a new cam and our complete setup components to Katech. we paid them big $ to perform our spintron test. passed with flying colors.....mmm wth right. then discover my recipe is wrong.....got the wrong valves. I was NEVER told this. this whole crap cost me easy 8k and the 2016 season, even purchased 2 MIR entries that I couldn't attend. those 8 valves at 17$ they can damn well give them to me. those seals well thats another. I asked them for new oem seals, LS7 seals are brown ex and black intake.....the ones supplied are blue and the seat is much thinner...they are jobber seals. I wasnt going to go there because its not the current issue. But livernois has never been completly stand up with us from the beginning.....this is basically the biggest straw. I just discovered this valve thing as the heads were shipped back from livernois before shipping back out to American Heritage. So there is no hiding I am more than pissed. they cost me 2 race seasons and seb this one. had they mentioned perhaps that hey your build we swapped for the ss manley, well first off I would have said hell no....and we could have adjusted tension accordingly knowing hidden variables.
But yeah they could replace our 32 guides at 1100.00
and reimburse both our bills fully Including those valves as they owe me those. I'll send them back those crap jobber seals i didn't ask for.
and yeah we'd can go back to doing our thing.
I understand and I am with you. I truly feel bad as it is clear that both of you are stand-up gents who spent good money with clearly set expectations. It is an utter shame this happened and for what it is worth I'm real sorry.
Unless the shop admits guilt, it will be difficult to convince them to refund 100% of your costs (although they should). They will continue to use the excuse that you did not send the heads back to them for inspection as a means to escape paying you back. As they get backed more and more into a corner they will simply dig in on this one issue and use it as the "justification" for not refunding. So all you can likely do is request a refund of the labor as a compromise. I know it isn't right and I know it isn't fair. But unless you are willing to take this further then this might be your only option to recoup whatever you can and move on.
The worst thing that can happen is that this drags out for a long period of time and brings continued stress and worry. Some things are best dealt with swiftly, even if not to full satisfaction. Then you can move past it and on to things you enjoy doing - like racing your cars and not wasting time arguing with incompetent shops about faulty work.
So if they continue to refuse to admit fault, refuse to refund 100%, refuse to apologize on their hands and knees for this outrage and continue to use the "you didn't send us back the heads" excuse, then you effectively have two choices:
1) Request respectfully in writing a refund of the labor and thank them for attempting the install. This is likely the only mutually beneficial outcome
or
2) Sue them in court
Whilst initially satisfying to you and appreciative by the community, a long term campaign to spread the word regarding what happened is not in the long term a means to happiness. It is you who will suffer and exist in resentment and despair. I assure you they aren't up late at night worrying about it, even though you are. So get back whatever you can, never ever do business with them again, forget they ever existed, put your cars back together and enjoy. The only worry you should have is setting a new best time and posting it here so we can also enjoy.
I'm sorry again and I wish you both sincerely the best outcome.
I understand and I am with you. I truly feel bad as it is clear that both of you are stand-up gents who spent good money with clearly set expectations. It is an utter shame this happened and for what it is worth I'm real sorry.
Unless the shop admits guilt, it will be difficult to convince them to refund 100% of your costs (although they should). They will continue to use the excuse that you did not send the heads back to them for inspection as a means to escape paying you back. As they get backed more and more into a corner they will simply dig in on this one issue and use it as the "justification" for not refunding. So all you can likely do is request a refund of the labor as a compromise. I know it isn't right and I know it isn't fair. But unless you are willing to take this further then this might be your only option to recoup whatever you can and move on.
The worst thing that can happen is that this drags out for a long period of time and brings continued stress and worry. Some things are best dealt with swiftly, even if not to full satisfaction. Then you can move past it and on to things you enjoy doing - like racing your cars and not wasting time arguing with incompetent shops about faulty work.
So if they continue to refuse to admit fault, refuse to refund 100%, refuse to apologize on their hands and knees for this outrage and continue to use the "you didn't send us back the heads" excuse, then you effectively have two choices:
1) Request respectfully in writing a refund of the labor and thank them for attempting the install. This is likely the only mutually beneficial outcome
or
2) Sue them in court
Whilst initially satisfying to you and appreciative by the community, a long term campaign to spread the word regarding what happened is not in the long term a means to happiness. It is you who will suffer and exist in resentment and despair. I assure you they aren't up late at night worrying about it, even though you are. So get back whatever you can, never ever do business with them again, forget they ever existed, put your cars back together and enjoy. The only worry you should have is setting a new best time and posting it here so we can also enjoy.
I'm sorry again and I wish you both sincerely the best outcome.
We both gave them ample time to reflect and decide what path they wanted to take. As This goes on I will, We will rather, continue to drop hard evidence while they keep crying they did not get a chance to fix when they in fact did. they have backed up Zero, nadda, not a thing. but here's more from us.
Sebs heads were recieved and we reached out and told Livernois what He expected to have and what was returned. Seb told Dave at livernois they were on there way back and they were.
as mentioned Seb received his heads from Livernois friday sept 8th. he explained in the letter he was disappointed and shipping them back. on this fedex shot you can see items were sent Monday Sept 11th to Livernois. During this time We were told there would be nothing to do with the heads as they were perfect. not a sorry ok lets take a look when they get here....nothing of that sort. they haven't backed anything up yet so they won't back that up either. You see delivered on the shot however since Livernois didn't want to hear him out and give Seb benefit of the doubt, he intercepted the package Wednesday the 13th of Sept. and then shipped to American Heritage on the 14th. "we didn't get a chance to make it right" my you know what. Meanwhile they had my heads and I pleeded with them to make 100% they were ok and they let them leave the door.
I mean does Livernois Motorsports really think Seb happens to OWN/BUILD/TUNE/DRIVE the fastest recorded Stock Bottom end N/A C6Z by pure luck? If he say's your measurements are off, you gotta at least give him a chance to show you. You guys are so much in denial. He wanted to beat his 9.35@153.75 and then shoot a big thanks to Livernois for helping along with others. I wanted to do the same as I break into the Top 10. We had such high hopes for this season, so much money spent, time invested, wrenching put in, only to be denied our moment. This issue was far from made up, and you left it completely unattended and only Livernois motosports is to blame for what it has become you guys ignored 2months of me tryimg to work something out. I gave you many chances to reach out and discuss what could be done and nothing. Just hiding behind Dave Ameduri and his enormous shoulders. Besides him you've proven to be nothing but cowards. I reached out to everyone with zero responses. Make it right, it's more than obvious what went down, and Kohle hasn't even needed to say a word which I won't ask out of respect because it's not his fight.
11-08-2017, 09:57 AM
LS7 heads rebuilt going bad
