wjnjr

Glad you're making progress on your tune. Sorry, but I have to wonder why Katech didn't get it figured out during their 2000 mile test drive.

Hib Halverson

I've never spoken with whomever does Katech's calibrations–in fact, the company has never shared with me who does their cals–but I've looked at several of his/her cals and that person gets the WOT fuel, spark and other stuff spot-on, but, apparently, spends less time with idle or light-load drivability.

Scott Tenold

Hib I have an Instagram account and following Katech. They are still claiming to use mahle pistons in there builds! Have you heard about this? Makes know sense!!

Quiky One

As I’ve told many people, anybody can tune wide-open throttle. It’s the part throttle tuning that separates the diy’ers from the best. If you’re getting a tune done in two hours it’s not a good tune. Period.

Hib Halverson

You guys will have to check with Katech to confirm this, but my understanding is that the problem with Mahle's 1-mm moly/ceramic sprayed top ring and the Mahle bore finish spec. is restricted to the LS7. Other engines (ie: LS3, LS9 and all the Gen Vs) use cast-in place liners. To date, Katech has not reported any oil use problem with the Mahle rings in the cylinder cases of those engines.

Based on what Katech told me after their analysis of my LS7s problems, I believe the LS7s pressed-in liners are not compatible with the Mahle plasma-sprayed top ring and bore finish specification for those rings. What is different about those liners is unknown to me. I'll add that I'm kicking myself for not thinking of replacing the stock liners with a aftermarket liners such as what Darton makes.

Anyway...there is no problem with the Katech forged piston, itself. Once Katech understood the problem with Mahle top rings and LS7s, my assumption is that Katech went to a Diamond piston because Mahle Motorsports' piston would not accept a wider, .043-in top ring.

All this might be why Katech is still using Mahle rings in non-LS7 builds.

Again, I'd contact Katech to confirm all this.

Hib Halverson

"Quirky One" gets the Tuesday morning Beacon of Reality Award.

Piston_Head

Hib,

I had a disaster of a tune when I picked up my car from Katech. I've been very quiet about it for a long time. They originally said I wasn't used to having a cam'd car. lol Far from the truth. I returned the car to them three times I believe, then had them mail me a tune to put in the car myself. It is worlds better than it was when I first received the car, but it is nowhere near what I was promised when I was originally talking to Jason about what I wanted.

I'm finally going to bite the bullet this summer and get it tuned by a local tuner that has a great reputation.

Just wanted to add that my opinion on their tune is the same. Great at WOT but no time spent anywhere else. I was told that it could be made to run better, but the amount of time required to improve drive-ability wasn't feasible. The tuner is local to the shop, I spoke with him while I was picking my car up once. He actually apologized for messing up my tune the first time after it was built. Funny enough, he didn't know I was the owner and was within ear shot when he was telling Jason he'd messed up. ..... So kind of a forced apology, because I walked over and called them on it.

My car is serial #93. I thought that after doing that many previous stage 2 cars, they'd have figured the tune out. Unfortunate to hear it is still a problem, years later.

I have been watching this thread with great interest right from the beginning. Glad you got it figured out finally and I hope you get the proper customer service. Unfortunately not so in my experience.

Brad Johnston

Hib Halverson

The refund for the second rebuild...

Last week, Katech's owners made me an offer and had Steve Spurr email it to me. After thinking it over I finally decided, it just wouldn't work.

I turned-it down and sent Steve Spurr a counter-offer. Did that this morning so it will be a couple days before I hear back.

Hib Halverson

In fact, Steve called me, first, and gave me the offer verbally. The email was at my request as a follow-up to document what he said. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my earlier post.

While I'm not happy about all the trouble I've had getting my LS7 right, in Katech's defense...

The reason Corvette Racing "fired" Katech had nothing to do with its performance. Several years ago, GM made a corporate decision to bring most of its major race engine programs in-house. I think the NASCAR program is the only major engine program left that is outsourced and, even then, it's only partially out-sourced. GM has just completed a huge facility in Charlotte for its role in NASCAR race engine development.

GM made the change because it figured it could exercise more control and do it cheaper than out-sourcing. Also, GM felt bringing those programs in-house would enable it to use the programs as team-building for its engineers, be a good way to expose its engineers to environments other than production projects and enhance the technology exchange from racing to production and from production to racing. Katech was "laid-off" because of GM's decision.

mfj427

I purchased the stage 2 kit from Katech and had them install it (116 cam). Very happy with the results and treatment.

This whole Hib ordeal stinks, but it happens to the best of companies and people. Heck, I bought a brand new 2013 427 Vert with bad valve guides from the factory, a problem they knew about! I didn't get any money back from GM!

Folks these issues come with our hobby. If you don't want to deal with the negative aspects of it buy a horse.

HRDTOPC54FUN

Hib

Does anyone know who actually now owns Katech ? Also can't help but wonder if they are a US based entity.

Hoping you get a fair settlement with them. After what you've been through you deserve a significant refund.

Hib Halverson

I actually agree with the above...but only to a point.

I think a $20,000 engine that fails with high oil consumption due to rings which were incompatible with the engine in which they were installed is a bit more than just one of those "negative aspects" that "mfj427" insists we should "deal with."

I suspect those who work at Katech know who/what signs their paychecks. For whatever reasons, those which own Katech have chosen to keep information about that ownership confidential. Some of us might be uncomfortable with that, but they have every right to make that choice.

That said, at one time Katech was owned by "Braemar Energy Ventures" out of NYC. I was on Braemar's web site late last week and saw that Katech was still listed as one of its holdings. Additionally, a "Don Tappan" is listed as Braemar's Principal for Katech and a few others of its holdings. Tappan is described by the Braemar as, among other things, a "car enthusiast". Last week, I looked him up on Linkedin and his profile implies that he's still involved with Katech.

So...is Katech's new owner just the old owner or is the new owner actually new? That remains a question at this point, but I'm sure Katech will eventually "let the cat out of the bag".

In the meantime, I hope who/what does own Katech sees fit to do the right thing and provide me that refund.

Hib Halverson

A lot of people who've followed this thread about the "saga" of my Katech Street Attack LS7 have been waiting for something to happen. For 10 days after my request to Katech on 2 March for an unconditional refund of the $19155.10 I spent on the second rebuild, I heard "crickets". Then, last night, a UPS Red came from Katech. It contained some good news, but mostly bad.

The good...
The bad...
So, what I thought was daylight at the end of the tunnel was actually a freight train of continued annoyance, disappointment and stress coming the other way. Damn it all–I had hoped Katech was going to do the "right thing" and refund all the money.

That's about all I have to say right now, but I'll fill in some of the "blanks" in the next few days.

drewz06

hopefully they're getting the other 9155.10 together for a second check.... 10k flat doesn't seem like the end, just a partial...

Hib Halverson

There was a letter from Steve Spurr in the UPS Red. What Steve wrote to me implies that there will be no further payment. In that letter Steve, says in the last two paragraphs:

Based on that, my belief is that a full refund is unlikely. Fair to say, I'm pretty bummed.

Quiky One

What about the warranty, though? Isn’t that what it’s for?

Hib Halverson

I violated the warranty for the first rebuild by changing the original calibration after Katech made three tries at improving the cal via email, then stated it was unwilling to do further drivability recalibration without my taking the car to Michigan. As the oil use became more pronounced, it began to cause quite a bit of knock retard, I started fooling with WOT spark in an attempt to stop it because, at the time, I didn't understand how much oil vapor degrades octane when a lot of it gets in the intake charge. As time went and I continued to drive the car, oil consumption reached a point where it was about 250-miles per quart. By then I understood the engine had failed a second time. Katech's decision was that my calibration changes caused the excessive oil consumption.

Katech used the Mahle ringset and the Mahle bore finish specification for the second rebuild. I did change the cal again to fix idle and street drivability issues but did not change anything related to fuel and spark at high-load or wide-open-throttle. While that violated the warranty, Steve Spurr told me that Katech agrees changing the calibration for idle and light-load did not cause the high oil consumption problem the second rebuild exhibited.

P.S. After I posted this, the CF software turned the phrase "excessive oil consumption" into a link. Out of curiosity, I clicked it and landed on a page on Amazon titled "Wynn's Super Charge 10.14 oz Stops Excessive Oil Consumption". I spit coffee all over my display then LOLROF. I thought, "s**t! I coulda fixed that oil-sucking LS7 myself with a $23 bucks worth of a Wynn's oil additive?! Wish I woulda known that sooner!"

Hib Halverson

At the time I visited Katech, I was thinking about a trip to Europe. Then we changed our minds and decided to go to Nashville TN for a three-day country/western bar crawl (Luke Bryant's, Blake Shelton's and Alan Jackson's clubs) and visit to various touristing locations (CW Hall of Fame, Grand Old Opry and etc). The money we saved switching from Europe to Nashville would enable us to take my Wife's son/my stepson and his girlfriend with us.

Of course, I coulda put it all on a credit card but then...COSID-19 ended that' idea. Short on money temporarily, watching the stock market go down trailing smoke, long on the fear of getting sick and knowing a lot of the places we wanted to visit in Nashville would either be closed or nearly deserted anyway; we're going to just forget the whole freakin' damn trip for now and, considering all the problems right now, I can live with that.

But I got Taylor Swift tix for the L.A. Show in July. If that gets cancelled, I'll be majorly crushed.

Hib Halverson

I paid for two rebuilds, got half a refund on the second. Katech did the third rebuild at no charge. The third rebuild was only one which has been reliable and durable.
That's how I feel.
Katech does not disclose who does their calibration work, however, Steve Spurr told me this person is, "...one of the best in the business." I've never communicated with their calibrator. I've only looked at his/her work. I do not do cal work for a living, but I have a reasonable understanding of HPTuners, which is the cal application this person uses. In my opinion, the calibrations flashed by Katech into my engine controller could have been more optimized for street/track use. I will admit that getting the cal of a "true street/track" engine right takes a lot of time and effort...more than getting the cal right for a track-only engine. I'll add that, even with great calibration work, how "right" street drivability of an LS7 can get with an aftermarket camshaft depends on the cam profile. My LS7 uses the mildest cam Katech has for an LS7, the "Torquer 116" (116-deg being the lobe sep) Of all the cams Katech might put in an LS7 build, I believe the Torquer 116 should be the easiest to deal with as far as calibrating for drivability.

"Cal guys" are not "gods". The more radical the cam profile, the harder is it to cal for drivability...even for the best calibrators in the business. I've been PM'ing with a CF member in Europe who is building an LS7 and asked me for my LS7 cal file. I asked him what cam he's using and he said that it's an AHP camshaft with 110 lobe sep. I told him I'd gladly give him the file but that my cal likely would not have as good a result drivability-wise in his engine as it produced with mine because of the difference in lobe sep.
You're welcome. Glad to be of service.

Katech_Zach

To all:

We have let this thread run one-sided for years, as we believe the voice of the customer should be unaltered and unhindered. But now we think it is time to balance the narrative.

Katech has developed quite a relationship with Hib, maybe more than any other Katech customer we have ever had. Hib is both a great guy personally and a smart guy with tons of theoretical and practical knowledge. He has been writing in and around our industry for decades. I respect him for who he is and what he does.

Hib came to Katech for superior power and durability, and in the end we delivered. There have been issues, as discussed in this thread, and we stood by Hib for years while other shops would have walked or rejected any claim.

Our policy states that if you tune the car, it voids our warranty. Hib knew this and signed off. Nevertheless, since we first delivered the car back to Hib, he has been changing parts and tuning as he desired. If it has not been mentioned already, the first rebuild was on him. The car came back to us with melted catalysts and was significantly down on power output since it had last left. This was due to the significant changes of the spark and fuel maps compared to what the car left with, his prior tuning was the reason for the first failure.

For the engine that was rebuilt using Hib’s investment, we had initially focused our problem solving efforts on the history on what Hib had done in the past. Had he not tuned the engine, or changed any parts, and honored the warranty agreements that he had signed, we would have focused 100% of our time and efforts on the parts and processes used here at Katech, digging deeper into potential supplier quality issues rather than build and calibration issues. He would also have a full $20,000 in his pocket had he not voided his warranty.

It is true that Hib paid us twice to build the same engine. However, throughout our efforts, we paid a lot of cash as well, more than four times the amount paid by Hib to be exact. This was funds out of our personal account. If you factor in our opportunity cost (the amount of money we could have made with the time and material that was consumed during this piston-ring investigation), we invested more than eight times the amount that he has into Katech. With all of this said and a clearly voided warranty that we are not legally required to honor, we still wrote Hib a check for 5 figures. Again, had he stood by our warranty policies, he would have the full amount in his pocket. Try getting a dime from any OEM for a warranty claim under these same circumstances.

As noted, Hib is astute and we believe accurate in his position of wanting a full refund. You must also realize that he is not innocent by any standard either. We stood by our customer in a difficult situation, a situation that most shops would have walked away from due to the business-customer terms being voided by the customer. I would suggest the following to any one of our customers: If you are having a problem with your Katech vehicle, do not hesitate to bring the concerns up to us. We will do everything and anything in our power to make it right. If you decide to take the path that Hib took which involves voiding our warranty, you cannot expect us to honor that warranty. We do our best to help all of our customers on a case to case basis when warranties are voided, but this is not guaranteed and will never be guaranteed.

I’d like to underscore that there was nothing in the Katech craftsmanship that we did wrong. The build, the ring gaps, clearances, tolerances, and everything else of were all spot on to 110%. Our build process was and still is the best on the planet for power and durability.

We look upon this episode as simply another example of the resilience and problem-solving capabilities you can expect from the outstanding engineers, engine builders, and technicians employed here at Katech. The customer support for which we are known for.

Till Later,
Steve Spurr - President of Katech