Bolt on ls7 rollertip rockerarm
07-07-2018, 02:09 PM
#41
Racer
Here a vengeance build with TD shaft rockers. Dyno doesn’t show valve float like the Yella Terras that I’ve seen. Not sure how long they will last tho. Seems roller tips are always on borrowed time either to break, float or other type of failure. Perform well in the get go but fall short down the road. Gotta thank Josh B for his knowledge and experience. The Video. Parts list is at the end.
https://youtu.be/wyZ4C7BpqsE
https://youtu.be/wyZ4C7BpqsE
I see a lot of information on CF being put up by people who are butt hurt, or haters, and I have to say that it doesn’t help our community, or anybody else searching for info about what works and what doesn’t. Trying to keep the discussion legit here is tough.
07-07-2018, 03:34 PM
#43
Dont understand this post. Rockers have nothing to do with valve float. Valve float is a byproduct of the lifterwheel leaving the ramp of the camshaft, due to a valve spring that’s either wrong, or weakened. I understand MOI. YT states that their MOI at the tip is comparable to other aluminum roller rockers. I don’t understand how you can say that “dyno doesn’t show valve float like the Yella Terra’s I’ve seen”. Can you explain your statement? This was a new build with fresh springs. I know the owner. I bought his RPS clutch he took off the car before this build.
I see a lot of information on CF being put up by people who are butt hurt, or haters, and I have to say that it doesn’t help our community, or anybody else searching for info about what works and what doesn’t. Trying to keep the discussion legit here is tough.
A valve train is a system of components that needs careful planning and design to work correctly. It's dangerous to make general assumptions and only consider one component of the system. That is why spin rigs have become standard shop tools for the larger budget race teams. The design, then validate through testing.
07-07-2018, 03:34 PM
#44
Racer
07-07-2018, 03:34 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
Pictures are not helping communicate your point here.
07-07-2018, 03:35 PM
#46
Racer
Rockers can in fact be a cause of valve float. So can the remainder of valve train components. Float can also be designed into the build on purpose, which is referred to as "lofting". Lofting is often done when total valve lift is restricted.
A valve train is a system of components that needs careful planning and design to work correctly. It's dangerous to make general assumptions and only consider one component of the system. That is why spin rigs have become standard shop tools for the larger budget race teams. The design, then validate through testing.
A valve train is a system of components that needs careful planning and design to work correctly. It's dangerous to make general assumptions and only consider one component of the system. That is why spin rigs have become standard shop tools for the larger budget race teams. The design, then validate through testing.
07-07-2018, 03:42 PM
#48
Racer
07-07-2018, 04:16 PM
#49
The rockers are actually a very good design and work well in other applications with lower ratios and much milder cam lobe families. I've used Comp Pro-Magnum rockers for years with great success in SBC, LT1, and SPF applications with no problems. Most of these engines only rev to 6K or so and are running a max of 1.6 ratio with .550" lift cams or less. I also use 7/16" studs for these apps.
The problem with the LSx version is two fold. First of all, the weight of the rocker tip over the valve. With most current LSx cam lobe designs and the extensive use of higher rocker ratios, you end up with excessive acceleration/deceleration of the valve which causes valve bounce or "float".
The second issue has to do with the 8mm rocker stud which is basically 5/16". This is not a very stable platform for the rocker to work off of and also contributes to instability in the valvetrain.
These are the 2 primary factors along with engine speeds commonly in excess of 6500 rpm which contribute to a power robbing, parts destroying situation. This is a primary cause of valve spring and lifter failure and can also cause piston to valve contact if the valve bounce is great enough.
IMHO, there are very few options better than a stock rocker with trunion upgrade. I know some folks are having success with the Yella Terra ultra lights but even in this case, you had better know what you are doing when setting them up. That's why my most common reccomendation is to run stock rockers. I've had hydraulic cam stock headed cars turn 8200 rpm with stock rockers. GM really did their homework with this design.
Thanks,
Shane
The problem with the LSx version is two fold. First of all, the weight of the rocker tip over the valve. With most current LSx cam lobe designs and the extensive use of higher rocker ratios, you end up with excessive acceleration/deceleration of the valve which causes valve bounce or "float".
The second issue has to do with the 8mm rocker stud which is basically 5/16". This is not a very stable platform for the rocker to work off of and also contributes to instability in the valvetrain.
These are the 2 primary factors along with engine speeds commonly in excess of 6500 rpm which contribute to a power robbing, parts destroying situation. This is a primary cause of valve spring and lifter failure and can also cause piston to valve contact if the valve bounce is great enough.
IMHO, there are very few options better than a stock rocker with trunion upgrade. I know some folks are having success with the Yella Terra ultra lights but even in this case, you had better know what you are doing when setting them up. That's why my most common reccomendation is to run stock rockers. I've had hydraulic cam stock headed cars turn 8200 rpm with stock rockers. GM really did their homework with this design.
Thanks,
Shane
07-07-2018, 04:20 PM
#50
Spring's job is to emulate the closing lobe of the desmodromic valve mechanism to the best of it's ability. This means it needs to control the whole valve train and create big enough opposing force to all static and dynamic forces trying to deflect the valve from following the cam lobe.
07-07-2018, 05:27 PM
#51
Sorry for giving you the impression I was talking down to you. It certainly was not my intention.
Having said all that, you must know there has been a lot of testing with roller less rockers to reduce tip mass in the NASCAR engine world. Mixed results, but definate advantages. Del West has thrown a bunch of money at it. Were you involved with these tests?
07-07-2018, 05:36 PM
#52
Melting Slicks
As requested.
Ok, great. It will all be really discounted alot, let me look over my notes and get back to you tonight with a figure. Did I catch your name before? I admit that I don't recall.
Thanks,
Josh
Josh, just touching base with you about the Mamo stuff. You interested in moving it?
With the investment I have in these I don't think I can determine a price. As a customer of Tony's you should have a general idea of what the parts cost when new. If you'd like to make an offer I will carefully consider it and I think that is how I want to proceed with anyone interested in making a purchase. I will be removing, and open to selling, the assembled heads, the YT rockers, the pushrods, the Crower lifters with pin oiling ($750 new) and the custom solid roller cam. Not included on that invoice is the $250 in additional exhaust porting.
MMS 265 LS7 heads (TFS Six bolt castings) CNC ported / Hand
finished (ORDERED 3/7/16)
3,625.00 3,625.00
Labor CC and Mill to desired chamber volume (13.5 to 1 CR
target)
125.00 125.00
Hollow intake valve upgrade 350.00 350.00
Severe Duty Solid Roller PAC spring upgrade 375.00 375.00
Custom Cam (New MMS SR lobe designs) Specs TBA 475.00 475.00
Yella Terra MMS LS7 Ultralite Shaftrocker SR version 895.00 895.00
Comp Cams custom length pushrods 125.00 125.00
Johnson Linkbar mechanical lifters with AOL (Axle wheel
dedicated oiling)
750.00 750.00
Stage 2 exhaust porting $250
Make me an offer
Cheers,
Josh
What cc are the chambers? He cut mine to 62, with a target of 12.5. I’m at 12.42. He gave you a better price on those heads as well...
62cc
Gotcha. I looked back, and pricing is same. Mine isn’t broke down like yours is, except the extra exhaust work. My bad.
I cant price your stuff Josh. Obviously you don’t want the stuff. You’ve publicly tried to humiliate Tony on here, and I doubt you’d ever use his stuff again after you posted what you did. Shoot me a price when you figure something out. If you posted it here on classifieds, you sell it all quick.
Don't contact me again.
Originally Posted by Josh B.
Originally Posted by Che70velle
Originally Posted by Josh B.
Originally Posted by Che70velle
Originally Posted by Josh B.
Originally Posted by Che70velle
Originally Posted by Josh B.
Originally Posted by Che70velle
out of curiosity Josh, what would you have to have for the mamo stuff?
i might be interested, believe it or not.
i might be interested, believe it or not.
Thanks,
Josh
MMS 265 LS7 heads (TFS Six bolt castings) CNC ported / Hand
finished (ORDERED 3/7/16)
3,625.00 3,625.00
Labor CC and Mill to desired chamber volume (13.5 to 1 CR
target)
125.00 125.00
Hollow intake valve upgrade 350.00 350.00
Severe Duty Solid Roller PAC spring upgrade 375.00 375.00
Custom Cam (New MMS SR lobe designs) Specs TBA 475.00 475.00
Yella Terra MMS LS7 Ultralite Shaftrocker SR version 895.00 895.00
Comp Cams custom length pushrods 125.00 125.00
Johnson Linkbar mechanical lifters with AOL (Axle wheel
dedicated oiling)
750.00 750.00
Stage 2 exhaust porting $250
Make me an offer
Cheers,
Josh
I cant price your stuff Josh. Obviously you don’t want the stuff. You’ve publicly tried to humiliate Tony on here, and I doubt you’d ever use his stuff again after you posted what you did. Shoot me a price when you figure something out. If you posted it here on classifieds, you sell it all quick.
07-07-2018, 06:20 PM
#53
Team Owner
Funny thing is all 3 people saying you don't need a roller rocker for most setups, run roller rockers. Because we all have 660+ lift cams, high rpm, high budget builds. No one is saying rollers don't have their place, but not on a mild HC setup. No reason to drop $3k+ into a roller setup. (springs, pushrods, lifters, rockers, etc) Just throw some mold star guides or any other proven setup that has shown little to no wear, and enjoy the nice stable valve train without the added cost. You have to fix the heads either way, so just get them fixed, throw some stock rockers back on, and enjoy.
People arguing about Nascar engines/etc are missing the point completely. Those are not near stock LS7s with a budget.
People arguing about Nascar engines/etc are missing the point completely. Those are not near stock LS7s with a budget.
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Josh B. (07-07-2018)
07-07-2018, 06:30 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
The original question was to determine if anyone had personal knowledge the t&d rockers in the OP. I see no one has used them, so my question was answered. This is not my first rodeo and while the opinions and advice is great, I’ll probably give them a try.
07-07-2018, 06:39 PM
#55
Racer
07-07-2018, 06:39 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
Funny thing is all 3 people saying you don't need a roller rocker for most setups, run roller rockers. Because we all have 660+ lift cams, high rpm, high budget builds. No one is saying rollers don't have their place, but not on a mild HC setup. No reason to drop $3k+ into a roller setup. (springs, pushrods, lifters, rockers, etc) Just throw some mold star guides or any other proven setup that has shown little to no wear, and enjoy the nice stable valve train without the added cost. You have to fix the heads either way, so just get them fixed, throw some stock rockers back on, and enjoy.
People arguing about Nascar engines/etc are missing the point completely. Those are not near stock LS7s with a budget.
People arguing about Nascar engines/etc are missing the point completely. Those are not near stock LS7s with a budget.
Not trying to instigate any arguments over which setup is "better" since we all know the answer. But why advise the younger or newer crowd against such an upgrade when they are an abundant proven technology and affordable?
07-07-2018, 06:45 PM
#58
Racer
Your comment "Rockers have nothing to do with float", through me. I agree with you, when talking about setting up the system. When I read your post in its entirety again, I see you did take into account that spring loads/rate need to be considered. This conversation and some of the comments about rocker tip mass not mattering has me vexed.
Sorry for giving you the impression I was talking down to you. It certainly was not my intention.
Having said all that, you must know there has been a lot of testing with roller less rockers to reduce tip mass in the NASCAR engine world. Mixed results, but definate advantages. Del West has thrown a bunch of money at it. Were you involved with these tests?
Sorry for giving you the impression I was talking down to you. It certainly was not my intention.
Having said all that, you must know there has been a lot of testing with roller less rockers to reduce tip mass in the NASCAR engine world. Mixed results, but definate advantages. Del West has thrown a bunch of money at it. Were you involved with these tests?
07-07-2018, 06:47 PM
#59
Racer
07-07-2018, 07:13 PM
#60
Le Mans Master