View Poll Results: N/A Build vs. Forced Induction
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll
Modding Stock Zo6
11-10-2018, 04:59 PM
#21
Team Owner
Option for buy a warranty or if reliability is a concern, sell it and get a reliable car.
If heads don't take the motor out, one of the other issues may pop up. Sad to see people drop all this money to fix heads, then wipe a bearing, lose a rod, etc.
If heads don't take the motor out, one of the other issues may pop up. Sad to see people drop all this money to fix heads, then wipe a bearing, lose a rod, etc.
11-10-2018, 05:25 PM
#22
Another vote for fix the heads and don't touch a thing. I find the car has plenty of power stock for pretty much any normal use. If you can honestly say you can wring the car to it's limit (not your limits, the car's) on a regular basis, and still want more, then maybe it's time to consider power mods. I have a bud that has a supercharged LS2, cam, intake, LT headers, tune and the thing is wild for sure, tons of power and it comes on right now, but it's not easy to live with, really. It sounds great and goes, but it is always in animal mode, it is loud, raw and while I can genuinely see the appeal of that, I prefer having the ability to use the car in a wide variety of driving situations, happy to just cruise, take a longer highway trip, and still have the animal side lurking just beneath it's skin. The more the mods, the narrower the focus. I'd say you have to really look at what you want the car to be for you.
11-10-2018, 05:44 PM
#23
AHP did their package 4 rebuild with NO porting. I bought the car used from a local dealer and literally drove it straight to AHP :P
I see more threads on here with popped motors due to incompetent parts installation, oil changes, disregard for head issue etc than I have from mildly boosted LS7's. There is a risk in everything but I can contest to beating the hell out of my boosted LS7 for damn near 20k miles, my tuner can contest to it not being an issue for him having tuned many boosted LS7's and if AHP thought it was an issue I doubt they would have installed the kit.
I want to be clear I'm not stating that an SC Z is better than a NA build Z. OP asked about SC's and mentioned roll racing and that's the reason I am responding to this thread with my experience and input on an SC'd Z.
I’m to much of a chicken to risk popping a motor. If these motors came with ductile iron sleeves than sure. But since these are gray iron sleeves it’s hardly the ideal material.
I don’t think anyone willing uses gray iron sleeves on a built motor meant for use with boost.
I don’t think anyone willing uses gray iron sleeves on a built motor meant for use with boost.
I want to be clear I'm not stating that an SC Z is better than a NA build Z. OP asked about SC's and mentioned roll racing and that's the reason I am responding to this thread with my experience and input on an SC'd Z.
The following users liked this post:
craig'sZR1 (11-10-2018)
11-10-2018, 06:38 PM
#24
Le Mans Master
11-11-2018, 01:25 AM
#25
Last edited by 73DBG; 11-11-2018 at 01:26 AM.
11-11-2018, 01:26 AM
#26
Guys,
A properly optimized N/A engine with a "smedium" sized cam that can lay down legitimate low/mid 600's at the wheel (and I have many of them out there at this level with my more efficient aftermarket clean sheet design LS7 heads) is explosive and much more fun to drive than a supercharged car making 50- 100 RWHP more.....speak to the few guys lucky enough to have experienced both.
The responsiveness in naturally aspirated trim at that power level is race car-esque (especially with a modest port size in a very efficient cylinder head design) and something that has to be experienced to really appreciate. A boosted engine is lazy in comparison unless its at full kettle making boost.....in a manual trans car where its on and off boost in between shifts makes it even less desirable IMO.
The N/A combo I mention would make your Vette feel 500 lbs lighter driving around town with semi spirited part throttle application (versus the boosted engine) and I bet you it will run neck and neck with a boosted engine that dynos a good bit more at the wheel (heat soak on the street and other issues not necessarily seen on the one "cool down" glory run on the dyno creep into the picture with boosted cars). Also you need to understand that when your blower is not making boost (95% of your driving) it is simply a heat pump and a parasite constantly robbing you of torque and horsepower that could have been directed to your rear wheels (not wasted spinning a blower doing nothing for you).....also a blower spec'ed cam is not very ideal until your finally making boost and doesnt sound as good as a properly spec'ed N/A cam....the lower compression your typically running is certainly not ideal anywhere unless your making boost.....the added weight and additional heat management required for boost not very ideal either. These are all compromises inherent in most forced induction combo's (a turbo application offering less of them and is the most efficient form of forced induction)
My point is a forced induction upgrade is not just a free ride where if your willing to write a check you go make a bunch of power. Its far more involved than that and most average enthusiasts don't really understand all the trade offs associated with them. Now if your goal was 800+ at the wheel with good or at least decent driving manners that's not going to happen N/A (requires in excess of 900 at the crank) but that kind of power is almost dangerous on the street in a car this light and the rear end can come around on you very quickly in the lower gears. The need for dedicated drag tires are now part of the picture and other concerns (at that power level) that creep into the picture. When it comes to modding cars most if the times you have trade-offs.....pros and cons to carefully weigh and the more research you do the more you are better prepared to decide which situation might be best for your particular application and driving habits.
A 625 RWHP car in good air with a skilled driver and a race weight of say 3300 pounds is a 140 trap speed car all day. That would put about 13-14 car lengths on a 650 HP C7Z06 in the quarter mile. Think about how much faster that is....AND you can experience the wicked throttle response and explosiveness only made possible in highly optimized naturally aspirated trim. Car is lighter N/A (blower is 125 lbs easily all said and done).....braking and handling are not effected.....I can go on and on. If a 140 ish trap speed car will meet your performance goals, doing it in a naturally aspirated package that's alot more fun to drive is IMO, a much better way of achieving that end game. Even that level of performance will require some very capable rubber....you can forget about your Michelin Pilots or anything similar or your first two gears are practically useless. You would need a minimum of a 100 tread wear tire to try and plant even low 600's (over 700 HP at the crank).
I would make an argument that if there was one car that GM made that should never be boosted it would be the C6Z (certain applications and goals excluded of course). This car is just perfectly balanced and sweet perfection with the right N/A package and it could be the poster child for the ultimate purist sports car. Weighing close to 3100 pounds in stock trim (unheard of in most modern cars) and less than 3000 lbs with some easy to install weight reduction mods, its just prime for a monster light weight N/A aluminum small block with a power to weight ratio that would smoke most cars costing 5-10X as much. Let me tell you.....roll racing in a car capable of 140 trap speeds means you will be hurting alot of feelings and taking down alot of forced induction cars as well with your N/A ride and for me that sense of pride doing so is worth some major bonus points as well....some people simply cant fathom that kind of thrust can be achieved naturally aspirated and they will be searching for your hidden nitrous lines.....LOL
I could elaborate further but Im short on time.....hoping at the least I gave some of you a different perspective on this topic and other things to consider
Regards,
Tony
PS.....I should add that I also own a 2nd Gen CTSV which is boosted so trust me Im not hating on forced induction at all.....I just understand all the pro's and cons associated with boosted applications. The reason I kept it that way was twofold.....the first was easy.....the car came from the factory with the blower so everything was perfectly packaged for me by the General already.....secondly I wanted to make 650 - 700 RWHP in a car that would idle almost stock smooth (not going to happen N/A). My "V" is what I call my "gentleman's cruiser" and I wanted a total sleeper....didnt want it to sound like a cammed hot rod (its a comfortable four door sedan meant for long distance touring etc.), although I have certainly had some fun with it playing with some cars that underestimated its potential!
BUT......pertinent to the point I was making earlier, off boost and driving around town the car doesnt feel like anything special at all....it still feels heavy and borderline under powered till you get into the throttle hard and it starts to build some boost. However for a car this heavy meeting the smooth idle requirements I had set forth and knowing the big torque I would need to get this type of weight moving briskly, staying boosted made the most sense as it better met all the design parameters of the project for me.
Here she is parked (poorly!) in front of a Starbucks for a quick caffeine fix....a somewhat understated clean black sedan which traps low 130's now....more soon with my next round of mods (a ported blower and a larger stroker motor is in the works).
A properly optimized N/A engine with a "smedium" sized cam that can lay down legitimate low/mid 600's at the wheel (and I have many of them out there at this level with my more efficient aftermarket clean sheet design LS7 heads) is explosive and much more fun to drive than a supercharged car making 50- 100 RWHP more.....speak to the few guys lucky enough to have experienced both.
The responsiveness in naturally aspirated trim at that power level is race car-esque (especially with a modest port size in a very efficient cylinder head design) and something that has to be experienced to really appreciate. A boosted engine is lazy in comparison unless its at full kettle making boost.....in a manual trans car where its on and off boost in between shifts makes it even less desirable IMO.
The N/A combo I mention would make your Vette feel 500 lbs lighter driving around town with semi spirited part throttle application (versus the boosted engine) and I bet you it will run neck and neck with a boosted engine that dynos a good bit more at the wheel (heat soak on the street and other issues not necessarily seen on the one "cool down" glory run on the dyno creep into the picture with boosted cars). Also you need to understand that when your blower is not making boost (95% of your driving) it is simply a heat pump and a parasite constantly robbing you of torque and horsepower that could have been directed to your rear wheels (not wasted spinning a blower doing nothing for you).....also a blower spec'ed cam is not very ideal until your finally making boost and doesnt sound as good as a properly spec'ed N/A cam....the lower compression your typically running is certainly not ideal anywhere unless your making boost.....the added weight and additional heat management required for boost not very ideal either. These are all compromises inherent in most forced induction combo's (a turbo application offering less of them and is the most efficient form of forced induction)
My point is a forced induction upgrade is not just a free ride where if your willing to write a check you go make a bunch of power. Its far more involved than that and most average enthusiasts don't really understand all the trade offs associated with them. Now if your goal was 800+ at the wheel with good or at least decent driving manners that's not going to happen N/A (requires in excess of 900 at the crank) but that kind of power is almost dangerous on the street in a car this light and the rear end can come around on you very quickly in the lower gears. The need for dedicated drag tires are now part of the picture and other concerns (at that power level) that creep into the picture. When it comes to modding cars most if the times you have trade-offs.....pros and cons to carefully weigh and the more research you do the more you are better prepared to decide which situation might be best for your particular application and driving habits.
A 625 RWHP car in good air with a skilled driver and a race weight of say 3300 pounds is a 140 trap speed car all day. That would put about 13-14 car lengths on a 650 HP C7Z06 in the quarter mile. Think about how much faster that is....AND you can experience the wicked throttle response and explosiveness only made possible in highly optimized naturally aspirated trim. Car is lighter N/A (blower is 125 lbs easily all said and done).....braking and handling are not effected.....I can go on and on. If a 140 ish trap speed car will meet your performance goals, doing it in a naturally aspirated package that's alot more fun to drive is IMO, a much better way of achieving that end game. Even that level of performance will require some very capable rubber....you can forget about your Michelin Pilots or anything similar or your first two gears are practically useless. You would need a minimum of a 100 tread wear tire to try and plant even low 600's (over 700 HP at the crank).
I would make an argument that if there was one car that GM made that should never be boosted it would be the C6Z (certain applications and goals excluded of course). This car is just perfectly balanced and sweet perfection with the right N/A package and it could be the poster child for the ultimate purist sports car. Weighing close to 3100 pounds in stock trim (unheard of in most modern cars) and less than 3000 lbs with some easy to install weight reduction mods, its just prime for a monster light weight N/A aluminum small block with a power to weight ratio that would smoke most cars costing 5-10X as much. Let me tell you.....roll racing in a car capable of 140 trap speeds means you will be hurting alot of feelings and taking down alot of forced induction cars as well with your N/A ride and for me that sense of pride doing so is worth some major bonus points as well....some people simply cant fathom that kind of thrust can be achieved naturally aspirated and they will be searching for your hidden nitrous lines.....LOL
I could elaborate further but Im short on time.....hoping at the least I gave some of you a different perspective on this topic and other things to consider
Regards,
Tony
PS.....I should add that I also own a 2nd Gen CTSV which is boosted so trust me Im not hating on forced induction at all.....I just understand all the pro's and cons associated with boosted applications. The reason I kept it that way was twofold.....the first was easy.....the car came from the factory with the blower so everything was perfectly packaged for me by the General already.....secondly I wanted to make 650 - 700 RWHP in a car that would idle almost stock smooth (not going to happen N/A). My "V" is what I call my "gentleman's cruiser" and I wanted a total sleeper....didnt want it to sound like a cammed hot rod (its a comfortable four door sedan meant for long distance touring etc.), although I have certainly had some fun with it playing with some cars that underestimated its potential!
BUT......pertinent to the point I was making earlier, off boost and driving around town the car doesnt feel like anything special at all....it still feels heavy and borderline under powered till you get into the throttle hard and it starts to build some boost. However for a car this heavy meeting the smooth idle requirements I had set forth and knowing the big torque I would need to get this type of weight moving briskly, staying boosted made the most sense as it better met all the design parameters of the project for me.
Here she is parked (poorly!) in front of a Starbucks for a quick caffeine fix....a somewhat understated clean black sedan which traps low 130's now....more soon with my next round of mods (a ported blower and a larger stroker motor is in the works).
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 11-11-2018 at 11:31 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports:
craig'sZR1 (11-11-2018),
STLZCAR (11-29-2018)
11-13-2018, 12:36 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
I have a complete Mamo Motorsports LS7 build, and I've been very pleased with my decision to stay N/A and buy one of Tonys packages. Tony supplied every part on my build except the fuel pump and tune, and he was excellent to deal with. He spent a lot of time on the phone walking me through valve train setup, helping insure that I put the combo together correctly. In the end my car made 637/539 power numbers on a local Dynojet dyno. When I first told my local shop I was putting together a combo that I was hoping to make 600 wheel horsepower with they said it was NOT going to happen. The owner of the shop was shocked when it belted out 637 to the tire with a 236/248 camshaft, now says it's the best N/A Z06 combo that he has driven. My last car was a high power C5 corvette with an LS7 based swap and a TR6060 that put down just under 900 to the wheels with a Procharger (F1A-94), but the Z06 is still a more fun car to drive. The overall power is down a couple hundred, but the response of the engine is much better. I just couldn't see throwing 100lbs of weight over the front end of a lightweight Z06, when you can make 600 wheel horsepower with a pretty docile all motor combo.
Here is a link to my initial impressions when I first finished the build and had it tuned, as well as dyno sheets and an Idle clip: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ts-are-in.html
Here is a link to my initial impressions when I first finished the build and had it tuned, as well as dyno sheets and an Idle clip: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ts-are-in.html
Last edited by redcycle13; 11-14-2018 at 08:45 AM.
The following 3 users liked this post by redcycle13:
11-29-2018, 03:16 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
Hey Craig,
We aren't far from you and are in tax-free Delaware.
We would be happy to do a H/C/I setup for you and have a proven track record.
Some video's of our setups.
We also can offer you a few options as far as FI as well.
We aren't far from you and are in tax-free Delaware.
We would be happy to do a H/C/I setup for you and have a proven track record.
Some video's of our setups.
We also can offer you a few options as far as FI as well.
The following users liked this post:
craig'sZR1 (09-07-2019)
11-29-2018, 04:09 PM
#29
Hey Craig,
We aren't far from you and are in tax-free Delaware.
We would be happy to do a H/C/I setup for you and have a proven track record.
Some video's of our setups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7F3Wx5LB9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwK-uQBd7Vs&t
We also can offer you a few options as far as FI as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIQE8Wkti-A
We aren't far from you and are in tax-free Delaware.
We would be happy to do a H/C/I setup for you and have a proven track record.
Some video's of our setups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7F3Wx5LB9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwK-uQBd7Vs&t
We also can offer you a few options as far as FI as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIQE8Wkti-A
11-30-2018, 10:10 AM
#30
Le Mans Master
