Mordeth

Lefteris,

I responded to your PM but as you have different questions here and in your response to me I am responding here. This will probably be a bit long for the sake of thoroughness and so that the trolls avoid it.

Few things. I live in NY and I know of these shops. They are very good, and very reputable shops. The modifications that JTM are proposing are proper and will work. On these forums you will find all manner of opinions on what works and what doesn't work, and you should take these opinions (including mine) with large grains of salt as everyone has internal bias. Additionally, most guys here (but not all) only care for MORE POWA, so they can compare dyno sheets with their buddies and go fast on their local expressway in the middle of the night in a straight line. Most have no experience actually putting our cars on a road course and what is necessary to do this successfully. This is not a knock, but a simple fact. You have available to you two approaches to modifying your car:

1) Approach #1: You bring your car to a reputable shop and have them install a "package" that they sell, which typically includes a cam, reworked/fixed heads with supporting items (springs, valves etc), a new manifold, a cold air intake, a throttle body, headers etc. I call it a "package" as each shop will have a combination of parts that they themselves have tested and know to work and produce a certain result. Some variety of parts are used at multiple shops as they are proven to work (like an MSD Manifold).

2) Approach #2: You research all of the parts yourself and purchase them. Then you find a reputable shop to install them. In this example they are only providing the labor and perhaps a few smaller parts like gaskets and seals. This gives you more control over parts selection and cost, but as it is likely not a combination that the shop uses the results can't be guaranteed. So in this example you must be confident in the parts you pick. It is easy to get very confused as the number of options are very large and there are literally thousands of opinions. Some guys find the options too daunting to figure out so they go with a "package" at a shop.

Now, the most important thing you need to initially do is purchase a car. All of the modifications will come afterwards, and will depend on what is already on the car. Therefore, while it is fun to configure these modifications in advance to have an idea of what you want to do, it is not necessarily productive. With no car you have no modifications, so focus on the car first and the modifications second. It is very easy to assemble a list of modifications once the car is identified and purchased.

Additionally, if you will be living in Texas and I suspect the car will be purchased in Texas, it will likely not be feasible to have JTM perform the work in NY. This is literally thousands of miles away from you and the logistics of car transport and storage is daunting. You are better off finding a shop that is local to wherever you live and where the car is located. If you are insistent on using JTM (a good shop but located far away) then prepare to deal with transporting a car across the country. As I listed in my post to you, there are many reputable shops near Houston to perform this work.

Now, as to the mods themselves. Again, the list provided to you by JTM and the companies involved are proper and of quality. It will work. However, there are a number of things to consider and here is my opinion (which should be taken with a grain of salt as I am likely biased):

1) You don't need 600+whp in a C6Z that is tracked. At this power level many things begin to happen to the car. First, your injectors will begin to run out of duty cycle and will be maxed out (so suddenly you need new injectors as well). Second, you will use ALOT OF GAS on the race track (this sucks). Third, the car will be more prone to detonation and pre-ignition, which can lead to the immediate death of your motor. This is because the tune will be at the "edge" of safe timing and fuel, especially if you mill the heads and add compression. Fourth, the car will run hotter and be more difficult to control both coolant and oil temps (a major factor on the track, especially in Texas). Heat is the ultimate enemy and more power = more heat. Period. Fifth, at this power level everything will break more quickly. And I mean EVERYTHING. So the car is less reliable and will be in for repairs more often (this sucks). And finally, 600whp is not needed to be quick on a race track. My car is intentionally de-tuned to 550whp, is very reliable at this power level, has a broad, flat torque curve, plenty of power under the curve, is easier to control on track, has very good street manners and I regularly beat cars with far more horsepower than me. So take all of this in as you make your decision.

2) As for a list of mods. I am hesitant to provide a list as you don't even own the car yet. Additionally, I would prefer that you focus on modifications that make the car 1) Safer 2) More reliable and 3) Better suited to track use (like suspension, oiling, seat, brakes, harness etc). Our cars are PLENTY FAST in stock engine form and there is no reason to make them faster initially, until the suspension, aero, brakes, seats, heads and oiling are addressed and all of the fluids have been flushed and changed (oil, coolant, trans and differential, clutch, power steering, brake fluids). Please take this suggestion seriously and please read my previous posts on what you should be focusing on first. But to answer some of your immediate questions: For a Cold Air Intake go with the Halltech 103 or 108 with beehive. For the headers go with ARH 1 7/8" or 2" or LG 1 7/8". These are the two best header manufacturers. They fit perfectly and they work. Don't get caught up in 2" vs 1 7/8". There are guys that only care about every last bit of horsepower to show off their dyno sheets and these guys are the ones who nit pick these things. It simply isn't necessary here. So LG or ARH.

As for the rest, here is my biased opinion for performance mods (which again should be done last):

Target goal: 550 - 575whp with a broad, flat torque curve that spins up quickly and provides a proper, usable powerband on a road course
1) Manifold: Tony Mamo ported MSD
2) CAI: Halltech 108 with beehive
3) Throttle body: Nick Williams 102mm
4) Heads: American Heritage Performance ported/milled fixed w/ MS90 guides and new springs/pushrods for your cam and heads
5) Cam: Pat Guerra spec'd TSP or Cam Motion Cam on 8620 lobes. Here is my cam (much smaller than proposed to you): 230/244 .651"/.651" 112LSA+2 Works great.
6) Katech C5R timing chain
7) Katech Red Oil pump
8) Innovators West harmonic balancer
9) Headers: LG 1 7/8" or ARH
10) Lifters: Johnson 2126LSR Slow leak down race style axle oiling lifters
11) Pushrods: Trend Hardened 3/8” .135” wall pushrods (measure for length)
12) Springs: PAC1206X with new retainers, locks and seals, installed to appropriate height
13) Katech Belt tensioner
14) Spark plugs: NGK TR6IX plugs
15) Spark plug wires: Firecore 50 with pro-mod boot and then wrapped in DEI shield
16) Mighty Mouse "mild" catch can


I again implore you to first find a suitable car and then focus on safety and reliability first and MORE POWA second. So please re-read and record my previous posts which should be your priority.

1Paladin1

So, back for a bit of sanity check.. I have concluded the search of the engineering mods required to get a Z06 to my preferred taste (happy to share with you if you want).. Getting prices, quotations for parts and labor and taking under consideration that I have a 60-70k for a complete project including the car purchase (engine, suspension, aero, interior, wheels) I got to a point that my car-search process has a evolved a bit and now standing at a crossroad. So any insight again would be greatly appreciated.

1. Initially I set on a an early C6 Z06 (06-07) due to weight. and initial price (28-32) searching a bit more on the differences between the next models
2. A 2009+ Z06 seemed the way to go as it had the axles (even thought the C5 Z06 are said to be the best), the added oil capacity and the TR6060 (32-38k)

and then the confusion...ZR1s 2009-2011 are between the 50-60k mark. having in mind that I will track the car is it worth it? exclusivity is cool but not a necessity. I am not a collector nor I envisage buying a car to keep it in my garage. so a few questions I have due to non-familiarity with the subject:
1. is ZR1 "reliable" enough to withstand "normal" track use as a properly modded Z06 can? (does it boil? does it have an air 2 air cooler for the s/c or an air/liquid)
2. is the ZR1 suspension "track ready"?
3 is the traction control system as "smart" as it is presented. the same traction control and options pack seems to be added in the 12-13 Z06

is a ZR1 vs a 2013 modded Z06 with the same traction control track comparable?

Stingray1967

Mordeth, I just have to say that your posts are some of the best on Corvetteforum that I have ever seen. Thank you for your dedication to the hobby.

1Paladin1

…..and back... Taking under very serious consideration the comments from Anthony the past week I am the owner of the below shown beauty bought from another forum member who really took excellent care of this pristine example... a few pics for the reference and off to start a nice project!


toyz for boyz...in principle we both want the same thing (just different size)

73DBG

Nice score man!!! Looks damn good!! Welcome to the club🇺🇸

1Paladin1

again following Anthony's advise the project will commence in such a way that powa will be the last to address

73DBG

I’ve been lucky enough to have Anthony take me under his wing as well!! Just an awesome dude! Completely different set ups and uses between mine and your build but just shows that Anthony is well versed and knowledgeable! Definitely a real deal SME on road racing set ups but can also help a dude like me with a blown straight line car....**** he dropped some much compression science on me last night I’m still trying to catch up and take it all in. You picked a good one man! Love that color too, don’t see a lot of those. I’m sub’d so keep this thread posted as you build you dream.🇺🇸

Mordeth

Heya Lefteris! Sweet ride! She looks clean and well cared for. Very nice find.

I got your PM. I am at the track right now but will call you later this week.

Here is what you should do before putting the car directly on the track next month:

1) Get an alignment
2) If the tires are more than 5 years old or less than about 4/32nds in tread then replace (MPSS or MP4S)
3) Flush all fluids, this includes trans, differential, oil, powersteering, coolant and clutch
4) Flush brake fluid and replace with Motul 600
5) Inspect braking system, which includes pads and rotors. The OEM pads are not meant for track use and will fade quickly. Replace (straight forward procedure) with Carbotech XP12 front and XP8 rear for the track. Rotors will last 3-5 days depending on how quick you are and how long/hard you push the car, then they will crack.
6) Remove EVERYTHING not bolted down from the car, which includes floor mats, radar detectors etc
7) "Nuts and bolts" the car, which includes checking torque on axle nuts, sways, control arms, lug nuts etc
8) Ensure front grille is cleared of debris, ensure oil cooler and radiator fins aren't clogged
9) Inspect entire engine bay, ensure plug wires are seated firmly on both ends, belts are tight etc.
10) Inspect under-carriage of car for any signs of leaks. Check oil pan, oil filter etc
11) Our seats suck, are slippery and lack proper support. Make sure you sit IN the seat and not on it. Use cinch-mode method with seat belt to help hold you in place.
12) Ensure clutch disengages/engages normally and transmission shifts properly into each gear

This is the minimum amount of prep work that should be done to your car. After this, be smooth, be confident, look ahead and pay attention to what the car is telling you on track. Will catch up later this week.

1Paladin1

Excellent Checklist! Will print it and follow it to the letter.

Who do we rely on- really trust to do work on the car in the greater west Houston area??...you already provided some names above... Even though I have read in the forum very good things about Pat Guerra (the 2 hour drive back and 2 forth is a bit discouraging) I think the closest 3 tuners to my office is the LMR, the MTI and the Serious HP

any opinion between the 3, someone else or it makes no difference?

also on the alignment? ..alignment to check that everything is within factory limits or do I have any freedom to adjust thing? (toe/camber?)

Mordeth

All those shops can do the work. Maybe someone more local to you can chime in here and help as well.

For alignment, here is a good starting point I would suggest for a street car on street tires that is also used on track. You can get more aggressive with the alignment later (when you move to stickier tires and better suspension).

Front
Camber: -1.6 to -1.8
Caster: 7.5 to 8.5
Toe: 0 (or a tiny toe out like 1/16th")

Rear
Camber: -1.0 to -1.2 rear
Toe: 0 (or a tiny toe in like 1/16" to 1/8")

On the street the tires will begin to wear on the inside edges first with this alignment, but the car and tires will like it on the track. That is the trade-off. If you want less wear on the street then reduce camber to -1.2 front, -0.80 rear and 0 toe all around.

Legacy Z06

1Paladin1 - I see you had your car shipped in an enclosed trailer. Would you mind telling me who used to ship and if you were happy with the service ? I'm searching for the right Z and may very well need a car shipped clean across the country. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to disclose details publicly. Congrats on the purchase and enjoy that new toy.

Excellent thread, this information is right up my alley and has already answered several of my questions.

1Paladin1

Hey,

Unfortunately I chose a company/broker ( I was not aware the company I chose were transportation brokers)...Fortunately the guy that came to pick up the car does exactly this!! Transports expensive cars across country. My car was picked up from Deer Park New York to Houston Texas. Car was picked up Saturday afternoon and arrived Monday night!! Pick up was scheduled for Tuesday morning for proper light for inspection. The enclosed trailer was as clean as my house... I am talking not a sign of dust anywhere. Keith Money was spot on. When I needed an update he provided on the spot. He was extremely careful to put the car in and out (or you can put it/take it out). Really liked the extra ramps he uses for very low cars. I will surely give him personally another call as I will be needing transportation services again. His contact number is +1 (570) 540-1200. Price wise it was half the price of the reputable transportation companies you ll find in this forum.

As as I said I was extremely happy and I will be using him again!

1Paladin1

Thanks Anthony! Is caster angle adjustable ?? Wow...I think I ll leave the front at 0 to have slightly better street manners and get the rear in a bit.

i am tempted to do all the setup mods
prior to 1st track day but I do want to test the car as stock t get a proper initial feeling

Lets have a chat at some point where you will be free.

Mordeth

There are things you should/must do to the car before putting it on the track that do not constitute "mods". These are safety items. I listed them. For example the brake fluid should be flushed and replaced with a DOT 4 with a high wet and dry boiling point, like Motul 600. Unless you enjoy boiling your brake fluid and crashing. If you are around this Saturday morning I will call you and go over them.

For alignment, unlike my C7Z, where rear caster is adjustable, it is NOT adjustable on a C6Z. Only front caster.

The alignment settings I provided will provide good street and track manners. The first one slightly favors the track, the second one slightly favors the street. Front toe out will help with turn in, and rear toe in will help with straight line acceleration (as the rear suspension/tires naturally want to toe-out under acceleration, so rear toe-in makes it neutral during positive forward thrust). But on the street when lolly gagging around it will cause accelerated wear (same with camber). Be very careful with toe. Go 0 if you are at all concerned. Camber you have more leeway with. Either way the car should be aligned before putting it on a race track. I will never drive a car on a race track without checking/adjusting the alignment. It is a safety item.

Here is an example of my alignment settings. Do NOT use these. Remember that I am using spherical bearings, coilovers, full aero and on slicks, driving 10/10ths in race conditions.

On race tires:




On R compound NT01 tires:

1Paladin1

thanks for the clarification! when I mentioned the word stock I was only referring to the addition of parts such as suspension, sway bars, spherical bearings, etc. All fluids and checks would be done either way. In all my cars I was running similar settings to yours above even on street conditions. I am quite familiar with car setup and wheel alignments but didn't have a clue on what is working street and track on the specific car.

Legacy Z06

Thanks for sharing your shipping experience

1Paladin1

So Ken @ KNS shorted me with front/rear DBAs and XP12s and 660 motul all around to start seeing how thing (will probably also take srf as I have used it in the past and was happy with it)...will get a feel of the car with the standards calipers for a while and then move on to the proper big brake kits.

looking at the initial suspension options (and with some minor weight saving in mind saw the following options)

1. https://www.lgmotorsports.com/corvet...r-package.html (with end links)

2. https://www.corvettemods.com/C5-C6-C..._0xBoCrVzw_wcB (from the weight saving list are the lightest ones)

3. any other options that work for the specific car? I have tried ohlins, KW clubsport, JRZ

4. camber kit yes as Anthony advised and still trying to decide between spherical bearings or Delrin/polyurethane (decision its a matter of daily use of the car not cost) and a final question.

does this work??? https://www.lgmotorsports.com/corvet...-spindles.html

Suspension and car setup is my priority so would like to do it once right and not through a trial and error

Took the car out on its 1st "decent" drive in an area that has a combination of high speed and tight technical corners. some observations:
1. stock suspension is to be removed and put on fire on high speed bends. car felt wobbly and can certainly benefit from thicker sway bars primarily and then suspension
2. was a bit better on tighter corners but rebound rate on the rears just sucks major time (4th gear high revs on a left bender car went over a dip on the road, suspension didn't read the anomaly as expected and the rear just jump up and tried to overtake me at 3 digit speed...not cool...
3. Brakes was okish but towards the end of the drive the pedal feel faded
4. chassis is pretty good and really liked the braking stability. left foot braking to rotate the car goes a long way with the crappy stock setup

that's it for 1st impressions

Apocolipse

You are used to german cars and their traction control. You need to basically forget about the vette having it at all. That is how bad the system is compared to what you are used to.

When you hit the track, put it in competition mode.

Be careful - vettes are great cars but can and do bite back on a cocky driver. They are also VERY sensitive when it comes to toe. Get that alignment and you will feel a lot more confident.

1Paladin1

thanks the for the advise. I never use traction control when on track (obviously) but all my cars have been setup for track use. my current car is still stock so it will come a long a way once setup and parts are installed. The above were just observations for a stock fast drive....and I wasn't acting all cocky at all in the drive exactly because I don't know the car, it is stock, and I didn't know the road...tried the "by the book approach"..brake while straight, trail braking into the bend, hit the gas smoothly before the apex, run slightly wide on exit .. I am 100% excited to try this car and I am sure it will be immensely rewarding once we get it right!


and a very important question: in all my cars with the exception of the s/c rs4 I have been using Mobil 1 0/40 and in the rs4 Mobil 1 10/60 as I did drive them hard daily and also it never let me down in the many years on track. does the LS7 like either 0/40 or 10/60 for track use?

Z.06

Been using Mobil 1 0-40 in my 2008 Z06 for years. I am completely happy with it. Usage is 25% trackdays, 75% highways. In respect of the trackday use, I change the oil and filter every 6 trackdays. As my car predates the realization by GM that the LS7 needs more oil capacity, my car does have a Lingenfelter dry sump tank to achieve 11 quart capacity.