aflyc5

I've heard rumors at recent cars shows of a soon to come v10 possibly?? I know there are also concepts of a mustang v10.
Can somone fill me in if what I am hearing about the V10 vette is true?? :party:

SWCDuke

Just where do you think GM is going to put the extra 4.5 inches of engine length?!

Don't get excited about every cockeyed rumor you hear.

Duke

C6Nut400

:leaving:

night feeder

:skep:

LittleBoyBlu99

:eek: :crazy: :crazy: :D :thumbs:

painrace2

I don't think V10 makes sense for GM! There are a lot of engine issues with V10 that would take away engineering time for V8.

Scissors

There will not be a V10. There will never be a V10. The V10 is a horrible, unbalanced engine.

Jinx

The best reason of all not to do a V10 Corvette:

Viper does it.

The world of high-performance sports cars has wonderful variety. Big pushrod V8s, really big pushrod V10s, multivalve flat-crank V8s, high-tech V12s, flat sixes... front engine, mid engine, rear engine...

Beyond the motor Corvette already has, what would be truest to the Corvette formula and the most interesting addition to the menu? A larger-displacement pushrod V8, of course.

Can't wait. :-)

.Jinx

VetterMan

Yeah sure. :nonod:

F1freak

I'm thinkin that if the V10 was such a horrible, unbalanced engine, Formual 1, which is the pinnacle of open wheel racing, wouldn't be using it in there cars. The top teams spending almost $200,000,000 a year per team on their engine budgets alone. I think a 5.0 liter DOHC V10 Vette engine reving up to 10,000 rpm and putting out 500 hp would be way cool. But it would also be way expensive. Hey Chevy can make Naturally aspirated pushrod V 8's that are cranking out 400 + hp. One of the main reasons the Vette remains the best bang for the buck true sports car in the world. Don't change that Chevy!


[Modified by F1freak, 2:57 PM 2/20/2004]


[Modified by F1freak, 4:57 PM 2/20/2004] :yesnod:


[Modified by F1freak, 5:00 PM 2/20/2004]

SWCDuke

F1 is not concerned about engine vibration. F1 suspensions are so stiff that chassis vibration can literally rattle the drivers eyeballs causing them to loose vision.

Several years ago there was a move to new V-12 designs, but the constructors got together and banned them to avoid another costly round of engine development. Thus, the current V-10s are really a "legacy" design they they're stuck with.

A 5.0L V-10 turning 10,000 revs better make a WHOLE LOT more than 500 HP, but you wouldn't like the vibration from the rotating rocking couples, and it probably would be a gas guzzler.

A 400-500 HP, 500 pound (dressed), aluminum, pushrod V-8 that has "perfect" balance, gets 20-30 MPG, and consumes only about eight cubic feet of package volume is a tough package to beat!

Duke

F1freak

If that's the case why didn't F1 go straight to V8's or a different engine and skip right over the V10 if they're that bad. Those F1 P.H.D Aerodynamicists and Engineers have to know something. Especially when it's estimated that all of the teams annual budgets combined is in excess of two billion dollars. I'm sure if it was that bad of an engine it would't have made it. My guess is the development costs for a V10 engine for the Vette is the problem. Just my 2 cents.


[Modified by F1freak, 10:09 PM 2/20/2004]


[Modified by F1freak, 10:20 PM 2/20/2004]

SWCDuke

There was no cylinder number limit on F1 engines until just a few years ago.
When the 1.5L turbos were outlawed in the late eighties and the formula became 3.5L naturally aspirated there were both 10s and 12s. By the time the displacement limit was reduced to 3.0L, all teams decided to go with V-10s.

In the search for an advantage some engine suppliers began to develop V-12s, and that's when the teams got together and nipped it in the bud. They spend billions now, but they didn't want to add billions more in new engine development costs, so they stuck themselves with V-10s, which is not a very good engine configuration.

Open wheel race cars have gone so far beyond road cars that there is very little technology transfer potential. They are literally ground bound aircraft with engines that are compromised in every respect to achieve maximum power in the top ten to twenty percent of their rev range.

Watching old film of Mark Donohue and Parnelli Jones banging fenders in their Camaros and Mustangs is a lot more interesting than a modern F1 race.

Duke

Lazerwolfe

Noooooo. Go F1! :D

Scissors

Not to mention that F1 drivers don't bitch about NVH, they bitch about their car not being set up well enough to win.

Passenger cars, on the other hand, do have to take NVH into consideration.

F1freak

So I am assuming the odd number of cylinders(5) in each bank is primarily what makes the V10 an unbalanced engine? SWCDuke I figured you would be the type of person who would be fascinated with the technology that F1 money brings to the sport. I went to the U.S. Grand Prix last year at Indy. It is unbelievable what those cars are capable of. And the sound. WOW.

SWCDuke

Basic rule in engine balancing - a bank of uneven number cylinders will have unbalanced rocking couples.

F1 engines sound great and they are incredible to watch running around the track alone, but the racing is pretty boring because it's almost impossible to pass.

It would be a lot more interesting if they drastically reduced wing sizes or even eliminated them in favor of spoilers - just enough aero force to balance the car rather than two to three times the weight in downforce at 150 MPH.

USGP is somewhat interesting because the low speed corners in the infield mean there's not much downforce, but it's almost impossible to pass even going into Turn 1 because at 190 MPHthey can brake a 4 gs and there's no time for the classic "late braking" move unless the setup is absolutely perfect.

The technology that makes F1 and other open wheel cars fast is not really transferable to real cars. I prefer door slammers.

Duke

pdvale

Changing the F1 brakes from carbon to steel would make a huge difference as the breaking distances would likely double giving more opportunity to pass.

Sandy S

From Formula 1 Technology (Peter Wright) a very interesting book about the F1 technology.

He indicates that:

Increasing RPM increases power (yes we all know that)

The current limit to RPM is not in the valve train but in the bottom end/crankshaft. (didn't know that)

V8s have a limit at about 15,000 RPM

V10s have a limit at about 19,000

V12 can have higher RPM but the extra length means more bearings (friction loss) and its "less stiff for a given weight" (the engine is part of the car structure in F1).

The W12 configuration seemed interesting because its shorter than a V8 but stiffer and could have the advantages of 12 cylinders.

He says that the V10s were the best compromise with "rpm, weight, size, shape, structural integrity, drivability, and fuel consumpsion"

The manufacturers agreed to limit it to 10 cylinders until 2007. I assume becuse of the cost to experiment.

Scissors

Just about any flat configuration, from an RPM standpoint, would be superior to all of those (except a flat 12 or higher :lol: .)