DRY vs WET shots
03-16-2008, 04:00 AM
#1
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
DRY vs WET shots
The tough thing about dry shots is the tuning. Once that hurdle is overcome, there is no fuel solenoid to fail.
My preference is a dry shot. This thread is not a debate or a bash on wet shots. I simply wanted to post how I installed my dry shot and gave my views on the system's positives. My dry shot set-up version is different than most. I dont do the fueling by pointing at the MAF for artificial air flow readings to richen up the shot. Tuning is dependent upon real value changes using HPtuners and I give exact tuning info in this thread.
For a first point dry shots dont have the intial shock of a wet shot. While its less 'FAST n Furious" effect the result is that it doesnt overwhelm the tires as easy. Once you break traction, you lost.
My system didnt install the way other dry systems do. The usual tuning for a dry shot is to use one dry nozzle pointing toward the MAF to get a concentrated shot of air on the MAF making it think the incomming air is filling the entire volume of the MAF unit and the PCM commands more fuel to be dumped. You also had a hard time adjusting it a little richer or a little leaner. Aiming nozzles can max out the MAF sensor too at one point. You can set up the HPT scanner to log MAF frequency to see where you are at but there is a simple and much more accurate way to tune a dry shot. Another tuning problem is timing; it is adjusted with a timing tricker box and you never know if its working because they intercept the signal from the crank and the scan always shows the commanded timing even if the timing is being pulled.
Harris speed works has an active circiut to adjust fuel and timing curves to suit the fuel and spark retard of any application and it goes inline with the MAF. Its advantage is that it can be adjusted to any amount of fuel or timing. It is an active circuit. Its tuning is another matter. It also maxes out the MAF frequency at some point since it operates by inputting a false MAF frequency to the intercepted singnal in the harness it attaches to. This unit is a great way to tune dry shots....its 150 bucks.
My final methodology for tuning was to make a passive circiut with parts from radio shack and have the dry nozzles far from the MAF on my dry shot. This set-up isnt critical for nozzle location because the IAT circiut adds the fuel not the hit on the MAF. The MAF then gets a more even hit instead of a concentrated hit and its actually near the commanded PE a/f ratio. To get it richer I used an IAT tricker circiut. Its nothing new and wires like this:
I didnt cut the wires since a failure would then potentially alway have my car pulling timing from an open in the resistence. I simply used a resistor to short them when the actual shot fires.
The N2O would mix evenly prior to getting to the MAF and the even flow of air keeps the PE exactly at the commanded PE which is 13:1. The reason for this is that the shot will have the added fuel from a more predictable metered way without relying on the nozzles pointing at the MAF element try and guess method. I will be able to add as much fuel as I want to get the a/f to 11.8:1 where I want it (you can target any a/f ratio you want). To maximize the car's N/A operation, I wanted the circiut to pull timing and dump additional fuel only while my thumb is pushing the trigger button on my T-handle and not always while the system is armed. Off the button my car runs the hottest max effort tune I could do to my car.
Nozzle location: sorry the install isnt stealth which I just dont understand. It not a curse to have a bottle. Its a legit power adder with drag race classes.
I intercepted the signal at the MAF and installed a relay to to change resistence to the MAF's IAT sensor. (this same relay provides the ground for the relay to the nitrous solenoid so if this circiut fails due to the relay, the N2O wont fire). For those not familiar the IAT is a themal resistor and varies its resistance with the temps it is subjected to. The IAT or intake air temp sensor does exactly what it says; it measures the temperature of the incomming stream of air. In the case of my firing the nitrous the resistance is changed to make the car think that the incomming air charge is 199 degrees. Now unless you live and drive on the surface of Venus, the IAT's will never hit 199. The amount of timing is one degree more in the summer. I pull 1.5 degrees per 50HP. Now for the cool part of the tuning.
The IAT not only controls the timing curve from the IAT base spark table but on the fuel tab there is an IAT vs. Injector flow rate table (this is on the general fuel tab for C6's and the PE tab for C5's...in the C5's case its an adder for the commanded PE). In this table IFR is changed according to IAT temps. In the following screen shots of my HPtuners editor, the IAT base spark and IAT vs injector flow rate are pictured. In this first screen shot you can see where I typed in -4 degrees in the high end of the table.
In this next table the IAT vs injector flow rate adjusts the fuel to where I want it. Smaller values richen the shot. The IFR is lowered making the PCM think it has smaller injectors so it makes them dump more fuel. When you first set this up, add a good amount of fuel and pull more timing than you think you will need until you fire it a few times and scan the timing and see the wideband's final a/f ratio:
In my case the 199 degree input instructs my car to dump 8% more fuel than normal. If I want 1% less I type that change in If I want 2% more I type that in. The best part is that it all shows up in the scans. Wet shots need to have constant bottle pressure to maintan a a/f ratio (which it never is) and the only way to richen it up is to change the fuel jet. I just type in what I want and it works flawlessly.
Initially, I scanned the car safely in my driveway (later in use with a 22 shot then 50 then 75 then 100...)and bypassed my WOT switch to allow the IAT circiut to adjust the timing -4 degrees and add 8% fuel while sitting safely in my driveway and simply revving to 3500 where my shot pops in(this was without the bottle open just to see if the fuel gets dumped and timing gets pulled. The scan showed 42 degrees at that load and rpm and without moving up or down on the gas pedal and triggering the circiut, the timing fell to 38 and the long term fuel trends jumped down 8%. I wish I had saved the scans to show some screen shots but the system workd flawlessly and ends the debate in my mind of wet vs. dry.
Now some safety issues. The relay in the IAT tricker needs to be operating to supply the ground for the relay that triggers the solenoid so if the tricker doesnt function, the N2O doesnt fire.
1) The air and nitrous mixes fully to get an even reading and not a concentrated hit in the center of the MAF. This gives predictable fueling. Keep in mind that the MAF isnt used for adding the fuel on this dry system. It finds a baseline for the incoming air and the additional fuel would be added even if there was no MAF. This is the same operation as the harris sped works box. It doesnt need an MAF and it doesnt need the nozzles pointing at the MAF
2) The lack of a concentrated hit keeps the MAF frequency from maxing out and lets you run a bigger shot than you normally would be able to if you used the MAF to add fuel by concentrating the shot on the element.
I dont have to worry about a dry hit heading over the MAF and leaning out or an MAF failure. I have consistency and a degree of control that makes it so versatile. If I want say 1.23% more fuel, I enter the exact value to the decimal (98.77) in the IAT vs. Injector flow rate table. No messing where nozzles point. If the MAF fails, no problem; it isnt what adds the fuel. In the case of my speed density tuned 2005 I dont need the MAF to even be there and the MAP/VE would calculate the fueling and still compensate to the commanded PE. I have a permanantly mounted XD-16 Lc-1 wideband to monitor fuel. The fuel curve never spikes lean on the shot engagment. When you come off the pedal the car isnt under load anymore and doesnt need a sustained rich state. I couldnt get the car to spike lean before or after the shot even staying on the pedal.
I dont like the fuel solenoid and the fuel in the intake manifold idea but so many run it without issue so its up to you. I wanted to just offer an alternative.
If you are going to do this you need to get the MAF patch to extend the frequency limits for the MAF or you can potentially max out the MAF. For those that dont know what it is, on the HP tuner's editor click the operating system button in the upper left corner. A write-entire must be done to enact these changes. If anyone has questions about this system or is close by and needs a hand with its install, shoot me a PM. All my work is shareware and I share secrets. (I guess that means they arent secrets). No charge, just make a ST Judes donation.
Keep in mind that the fuel injectors need to be big enough to supply the needed fuel for the additional requirement. If you have 90% duty cycle with a H/C car and you add a 125 shot you are over the line. Think 40lb'ers for a 500rwhp car which is likely more than 550-600rwtq. Go bigger for silly numbers. Also remember that the fuel pump isnt going to support 600/700 without a boost-a-pump wet or dry. 600HP from a supercharger isnt like the 600rwhp from the bottle. The TQ is 500 for a 600rwhp S/C car and close to 700rwtq for a 475 rwhp H/C car on a 125shot. They call it TQ in a bottle.
Hope this helps.
My preference is a dry shot. This thread is not a debate or a bash on wet shots. I simply wanted to post how I installed my dry shot and gave my views on the system's positives. My dry shot set-up version is different than most. I dont do the fueling by pointing at the MAF for artificial air flow readings to richen up the shot. Tuning is dependent upon real value changes using HPtuners and I give exact tuning info in this thread.
For a first point dry shots dont have the intial shock of a wet shot. While its less 'FAST n Furious" effect the result is that it doesnt overwhelm the tires as easy. Once you break traction, you lost.
My system didnt install the way other dry systems do. The usual tuning for a dry shot is to use one dry nozzle pointing toward the MAF to get a concentrated shot of air on the MAF making it think the incomming air is filling the entire volume of the MAF unit and the PCM commands more fuel to be dumped. You also had a hard time adjusting it a little richer or a little leaner. Aiming nozzles can max out the MAF sensor too at one point. You can set up the HPT scanner to log MAF frequency to see where you are at but there is a simple and much more accurate way to tune a dry shot. Another tuning problem is timing; it is adjusted with a timing tricker box and you never know if its working because they intercept the signal from the crank and the scan always shows the commanded timing even if the timing is being pulled.
Harris speed works has an active circiut to adjust fuel and timing curves to suit the fuel and spark retard of any application and it goes inline with the MAF. Its advantage is that it can be adjusted to any amount of fuel or timing. It is an active circuit. Its tuning is another matter. It also maxes out the MAF frequency at some point since it operates by inputting a false MAF frequency to the intercepted singnal in the harness it attaches to. This unit is a great way to tune dry shots....its 150 bucks.
My final methodology for tuning was to make a passive circiut with parts from radio shack and have the dry nozzles far from the MAF on my dry shot. This set-up isnt critical for nozzle location because the IAT circiut adds the fuel not the hit on the MAF. The MAF then gets a more even hit instead of a concentrated hit and its actually near the commanded PE a/f ratio. To get it richer I used an IAT tricker circiut. Its nothing new and wires like this:
I didnt cut the wires since a failure would then potentially alway have my car pulling timing from an open in the resistence. I simply used a resistor to short them when the actual shot fires.
The N2O would mix evenly prior to getting to the MAF and the even flow of air keeps the PE exactly at the commanded PE which is 13:1. The reason for this is that the shot will have the added fuel from a more predictable metered way without relying on the nozzles pointing at the MAF element try and guess method. I will be able to add as much fuel as I want to get the a/f to 11.8:1 where I want it (you can target any a/f ratio you want). To maximize the car's N/A operation, I wanted the circiut to pull timing and dump additional fuel only while my thumb is pushing the trigger button on my T-handle and not always while the system is armed. Off the button my car runs the hottest max effort tune I could do to my car.
Nozzle location: sorry the install isnt stealth which I just dont understand. It not a curse to have a bottle. Its a legit power adder with drag race classes.
I intercepted the signal at the MAF and installed a relay to to change resistence to the MAF's IAT sensor. (this same relay provides the ground for the relay to the nitrous solenoid so if this circiut fails due to the relay, the N2O wont fire). For those not familiar the IAT is a themal resistor and varies its resistance with the temps it is subjected to. The IAT or intake air temp sensor does exactly what it says; it measures the temperature of the incomming stream of air. In the case of my firing the nitrous the resistance is changed to make the car think that the incomming air charge is 199 degrees. Now unless you live and drive on the surface of Venus, the IAT's will never hit 199. The amount of timing is one degree more in the summer. I pull 1.5 degrees per 50HP. Now for the cool part of the tuning.
The IAT not only controls the timing curve from the IAT base spark table but on the fuel tab there is an IAT vs. Injector flow rate table (this is on the general fuel tab for C6's and the PE tab for C5's...in the C5's case its an adder for the commanded PE). In this table IFR is changed according to IAT temps. In the following screen shots of my HPtuners editor, the IAT base spark and IAT vs injector flow rate are pictured. In this first screen shot you can see where I typed in -4 degrees in the high end of the table.
In this next table the IAT vs injector flow rate adjusts the fuel to where I want it. Smaller values richen the shot. The IFR is lowered making the PCM think it has smaller injectors so it makes them dump more fuel. When you first set this up, add a good amount of fuel and pull more timing than you think you will need until you fire it a few times and scan the timing and see the wideband's final a/f ratio:
In my case the 199 degree input instructs my car to dump 8% more fuel than normal. If I want 1% less I type that change in If I want 2% more I type that in. The best part is that it all shows up in the scans. Wet shots need to have constant bottle pressure to maintan a a/f ratio (which it never is) and the only way to richen it up is to change the fuel jet. I just type in what I want and it works flawlessly.
Initially, I scanned the car safely in my driveway (later in use with a 22 shot then 50 then 75 then 100...)and bypassed my WOT switch to allow the IAT circiut to adjust the timing -4 degrees and add 8% fuel while sitting safely in my driveway and simply revving to 3500 where my shot pops in(this was without the bottle open just to see if the fuel gets dumped and timing gets pulled. The scan showed 42 degrees at that load and rpm and without moving up or down on the gas pedal and triggering the circiut, the timing fell to 38 and the long term fuel trends jumped down 8%. I wish I had saved the scans to show some screen shots but the system workd flawlessly and ends the debate in my mind of wet vs. dry.
Now some safety issues. The relay in the IAT tricker needs to be operating to supply the ground for the relay that triggers the solenoid so if the tricker doesnt function, the N2O doesnt fire.
1) The air and nitrous mixes fully to get an even reading and not a concentrated hit in the center of the MAF. This gives predictable fueling. Keep in mind that the MAF isnt used for adding the fuel on this dry system. It finds a baseline for the incoming air and the additional fuel would be added even if there was no MAF. This is the same operation as the harris sped works box. It doesnt need an MAF and it doesnt need the nozzles pointing at the MAF
2) The lack of a concentrated hit keeps the MAF frequency from maxing out and lets you run a bigger shot than you normally would be able to if you used the MAF to add fuel by concentrating the shot on the element.
I dont have to worry about a dry hit heading over the MAF and leaning out or an MAF failure. I have consistency and a degree of control that makes it so versatile. If I want say 1.23% more fuel, I enter the exact value to the decimal (98.77) in the IAT vs. Injector flow rate table. No messing where nozzles point. If the MAF fails, no problem; it isnt what adds the fuel. In the case of my speed density tuned 2005 I dont need the MAF to even be there and the MAP/VE would calculate the fueling and still compensate to the commanded PE. I have a permanantly mounted XD-16 Lc-1 wideband to monitor fuel. The fuel curve never spikes lean on the shot engagment. When you come off the pedal the car isnt under load anymore and doesnt need a sustained rich state. I couldnt get the car to spike lean before or after the shot even staying on the pedal.
I dont like the fuel solenoid and the fuel in the intake manifold idea but so many run it without issue so its up to you. I wanted to just offer an alternative.
If you are going to do this you need to get the MAF patch to extend the frequency limits for the MAF or you can potentially max out the MAF. For those that dont know what it is, on the HP tuner's editor click the operating system button in the upper left corner. A write-entire must be done to enact these changes. If anyone has questions about this system or is close by and needs a hand with its install, shoot me a PM. All my work is shareware and I share secrets. (I guess that means they arent secrets). No charge, just make a ST Judes donation.
Keep in mind that the fuel injectors need to be big enough to supply the needed fuel for the additional requirement. If you have 90% duty cycle with a H/C car and you add a 125 shot you are over the line. Think 40lb'ers for a 500rwhp car which is likely more than 550-600rwtq. Go bigger for silly numbers. Also remember that the fuel pump isnt going to support 600/700 without a boost-a-pump wet or dry. 600HP from a supercharger isnt like the 600rwhp from the bottle. The TQ is 500 for a 600rwhp S/C car and close to 700rwtq for a 475 rwhp H/C car on a 125shot. They call it TQ in a bottle.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 12-07-2013 at 03:42 AM.
03-17-2008, 12:27 PM
#3
Melting Slicks
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03-17-2008, 01:55 PM
#4
Drifting
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St. Jude Donor '08
Good, now about....
Spin,
I sent this post off to my buddy in preparation for doing his dry shot, BUT, tell us about that cool external oil reservoir/breather in your picture of the nitrous install!
I sent this post off to my buddy in preparation for doing his dry shot, BUT, tell us about that cool external oil reservoir/breather in your picture of the nitrous install!
03-17-2008, 07:26 PM
#5
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
Its Cartek's catch can. They get a Morroso can and add another intake line to it (welded bung). I have not seen a drop of oil missing on my level. The blow-by theory didnt hold true. (I was told the catch can venting and decreasing manifold vacume and not sealing the rings was predicted to increase blow-by) What appears in the can is dumped back in which isnt much. The level never moved in 2900miles.
03-17-2008, 08:52 PM
#6
Safety Car
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I'll have a go.
I realize that a few people have commented at this point - but I know for a fact that if I had stumbled across this post BEFORE anyone else chimed in - I would have left it alone, too.
Most people don't want any kind of "shot" on their car, unless it's a dedicated drag racer.
On a daily driver/street car, it's just not on my "must have", or even on my "maybe I'll do that" list.
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the extensive write-up about your experiences.
I realize that a few people have commented at this point - but I know for a fact that if I had stumbled across this post BEFORE anyone else chimed in - I would have left it alone, too.
Most people don't want any kind of "shot" on their car, unless it's a dedicated drag racer.
On a daily driver/street car, it's just not on my "must have", or even on my "maybe I'll do that" list.
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the extensive write-up about your experiences.
03-17-2008, 10:06 PM
#7
Drifting
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I'll have a go.
I realize that a few people have commented at this point - but I know for a fact that if I had stumbled across this post BEFORE anyone else chimed in - I would have left it alone, too.
Most people don't want any kind of "shot" on their car, unless it's a dedicated drag racer.
On a daily driver/street car, it's just not on my "must have", or even on my "maybe I'll do that" list.
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the extensive write-up about your experiences.
I realize that a few people have commented at this point - but I know for a fact that if I had stumbled across this post BEFORE anyone else chimed in - I would have left it alone, too.
Most people don't want any kind of "shot" on their car, unless it's a dedicated drag racer.
On a daily driver/street car, it's just not on my "must have", or even on my "maybe I'll do that" list.
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the extensive write-up about your experiences.
03-17-2008, 10:48 PM
#8
Instructor
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Spin,
Wow, excellent information. I have a dry shot on my '05. I am at 460rwhp n/a and with a 100 shot I am at 542rwhp. The way I have my jet pointed the power comes on very smooth.
I have it spraying towards the MAF but it hits the top of the intake tube and not directly at the Maf for the same reasons as you described. I have 3.90 gears and BFG 315 drag radials and on the street I get excellent traction. I can spray it at any speed in second gear and get great traction. I wonder why your setup is having traction issues on such a small shot. What tires do you run? Do you think that the way I have the nozzle pointed is why I am not getting bigger torque numbers (475rwtq) and thats why the power is smooth?
I guess what I am trying to say, and believe me when I say I am no expert, is it does make a big difference where the nozzle is pointed as you have said. I love how simple my dry shot is and how it has been working for me so far. The darn thing pulls real hard on the bottle. It went 129.8mph in the 1/4. Anyone that is on the fence like I was just make sure you get it dialed in by someone that knows their stuff and you will have a blast with it. I have gone through three bottles so far with no issues.
Jeff.
Wow, excellent information.
I have a dry shot on my '05. I am at 460rwhp n/a and with a 100 shot I am at 542rwhp. The way I have my jet pointed the power comes on very smooth. I have it spraying towards the MAF but it hits the top of the intake tube and not directly at the Maf for the same reasons as you described. I have 3.90 gears and BFG 315 drag radials and on the street I get excellent traction. I can spray it at any speed in second gear and get great traction. I wonder why your setup is having traction issues on such a small shot. What tires do you run? Do you think that the way I have the nozzle pointed is why I am not getting bigger torque numbers (475rwtq) and thats why the power is smooth?
I guess what I am trying to say, and believe me when I say I am no expert, is it does make a big difference where the nozzle is pointed as you have said. I love how simple my dry shot is and how it has been working for me so far. The darn thing pulls real hard on the bottle. It went 129.8mph in the 1/4. Anyone that is on the fence like I was just make sure you get it dialed in by someone that knows their stuff and you will have a blast with it. I have gone through three bottles so far with no issues.
Jeff.
Last edited by bolderman; 03-17-2008 at 11:02 PM.
03-18-2008, 12:01 AM
#9
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
Spin,
Wow, excellent information. I have a dry shot on my '05. I am at 460rwhp n/a and with a 100 shot I am at 542rwhp. The way I have my jet pointed the power comes on very smooth.
I have it spraying towards the MAF but it hits the top of the intake tube and not directly at the Maf for the same reasons as you described. I have 3.90 gears and BFG 315 drag radials and on the street I get excellent traction. I can spray it at any speed in second gear and get great traction. I wonder why your setup is having traction issues on such a small shot. What tires do you run? Do you think that the way I have the nozzle pointed is why I am not getting bigger torque numbers (475rwtq) and thats why the power is smooth?
I guess what I am trying to say, and believe me when I say I am no expert, is it does make a big difference where the nozzle is pointed as you have said. I love how simple my dry shot is and how it has been working for me so far. The darn thing pulls real hard on the bottle. It went 129.8mph in the 1/4. Anyone that is on the fence like I was just make sure you get it dialed in by someone that knows their stuff and you will have a blast with it. I have gone through three bottles so far with no issues.
Jeff.
Wow, excellent information.
I have a dry shot on my '05. I am at 460rwhp n/a and with a 100 shot I am at 542rwhp. The way I have my jet pointed the power comes on very smooth. I have it spraying towards the MAF but it hits the top of the intake tube and not directly at the Maf for the same reasons as you described. I have 3.90 gears and BFG 315 drag radials and on the street I get excellent traction. I can spray it at any speed in second gear and get great traction. I wonder why your setup is having traction issues on such a small shot. What tires do you run? Do you think that the way I have the nozzle pointed is why I am not getting bigger torque numbers (475rwtq) and thats why the power is smooth?
I guess what I am trying to say, and believe me when I say I am no expert, is it does make a big difference where the nozzle is pointed as you have said. I love how simple my dry shot is and how it has been working for me so far. The darn thing pulls real hard on the bottle. It went 129.8mph in the 1/4. Anyone that is on the fence like I was just make sure you get it dialed in by someone that knows their stuff and you will have a blast with it. I have gone through three bottles so far with no issues.
Jeff.
Great trap speed. What ET was that run?
Last edited by SpinMonster; 09-25-2008 at 05:06 AM.
03-18-2008, 12:08 AM
#10
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
I'll have a go.
I realize that a few people have commented at this point - but I know for a fact that if I had stumbled across this post BEFORE anyone else chimed in - I would have left it alone, too.
Most people don't want any kind of "shot" on their car, unless it's a dedicated drag racer.
On a daily driver/street car, it's just not on my "must have", or even on my "maybe I'll do that" list.
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the extensive write-up about your experiences.
I realize that a few people have commented at this point - but I know for a fact that if I had stumbled across this post BEFORE anyone else chimed in - I would have left it alone, too.
Most people don't want any kind of "shot" on their car, unless it's a dedicated drag racer.
On a daily driver/street car, it's just not on my "must have", or even on my "maybe I'll do that" list.
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for the extensive write-up about your experiences.
This wasnt a sales pitch. My car will never see the track. Most people with nitrous that I know will never go to the track. Actually, I dont think any of them did around here. There arent any 1/4 tracks in NY anymore and heading to NJ to break down isnt high on the list for fun.
Thanks for the feedback.
03-18-2008, 04:25 AM
#11
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The info was posted for those looking for a nitrous option and wanting to have a lot of info in one place. I would assume that people who come in this section looking at nitrous threads are interested in some size shot. The truth is that too many people by far overdo the shot size and claim a 50 shot is too small to be worth it. I think 50rwhp and 85rwtq is definitely worth it to some or no one would get a cam.
This wasnt a sales pitch. My car will never see the track. Most people with nitrous that I know will never go to the track. Actually, I dont think any of them did around here. There arent any 1/4 tracks in NY anymore and heading to NJ to break down isnt high on the list for fun.
Thanks for the feedback.
This wasnt a sales pitch. My car will never see the track. Most people with nitrous that I know will never go to the track. Actually, I dont think any of them did around here. There arent any 1/4 tracks in NY anymore and heading to NJ to break down isnt high on the list for fun.
Thanks for the feedback.
Personally, I'm just a little scairt of the N20, and hell, I can barely remember to keep the gas tank from running low, don't need another thing that needs to be filled on the car.
I really wish you WOULD take the car to Jersey and run the 1/4; I bet lots of peeps are curious as to what your beast would run.
03-18-2008, 03:59 PM
#12
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I use 555R2's for handling too since I didnt want a car that had hiway issues. I hated the BFG's on my C5. The reason for the difference on our cars is that I have 570+rwhp and 600+rwtq on a 100 shot and 560+rwtq on the 75 shot. I have LS3 heads and very high compression making serious low end TQ. I was 471 through 4.10's before the last set of mods. I bumped compression and went 4 degrees bigger on the cam while raising the DCR. I am not far from your TQ n/a.
Great trap speed. What ET was that run?
Great trap speed. What ET was that run?
I need more practice getting the darn thing out of the hole. I bog it out of the hole and my window switch is set at 3000 rpm to 6400 and when it bogs(because I cant drive) the car drops to around 1500rpm and the nitrous doesnt kick in until about 200' down the track. I should be able to run some solid 10's with a good 60'.Jeff.
Last edited by bolderman; 03-18-2008 at 07:48 PM.
03-18-2008, 11:46 PM
#13
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I have a 100 "Dry" shot on my car, among other things, and it's GREAT for IAT's It's the only way to go on a MAF equipped car if you're running under a 250 shot with an adequate fuel system...
It's the only way to go on a MAF equipped car if you're running under a 250 shot with an adequate fuel system...
03-19-2008, 01:45 AM
#14
Hmm. the dry shot described above seems a little overthought..
I have my twin nozzle set up in the aircleaner so it hits soft, for traction.. I just used the timing table and set the timing to come out when the grms/percly came above what the car does on the motor.It runs perfect on the motor and only pulls timing out whenthe nos comes through the meter.. The Lean spike is VERY SLIGHT. I know it seems stupid and simple but My car has had DOZENS on bottles run through it and has had up to 2 45 jets in at once.. The car has run best with two 40s in it. It makes about 150 at the wheels extra with 2 40's
I have my twin nozzle set up in the aircleaner so it hits soft, for traction.. I just used the timing table and set the timing to come out when the grms/percly came above what the car does on the motor.It runs perfect on the motor and only pulls timing out whenthe nos comes through the meter.. The Lean spike is VERY SLIGHT. I know it seems stupid and simple but My car has had DOZENS on bottles run through it and has had up to 2 45 jets in at once.. The car has run best with two 40s in it. It makes about 150 at the wheels extra with 2 40's
03-19-2008, 02:49 AM
#15
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
Personally, I'm just a little scairt of the N20, and hell, I can barely remember to keep the gas tank from running low, don't need another thing that needs to be filled on the car.
I really wish you WOULD take the car to Jersey and run the 1/4; I bet lots of peeps are curious as to what your beast would run.
I really wish you WOULD take the car to Jersey and run the 1/4; I bet lots of peeps are curious as to what your beast would run.
My car is barely able to handle the power I have n/a even with r-compund tires. Adding a small shot is all it can take. The small shots and only shotting in 3rd makes for about 40 hits or so. That lasts me months because I dont go spraying everytime a minivan wants to pass me.
My track days proved long ago that I'm no great shifter. I like it but I'm ready for a A6 if they figure out the weaknesses. In the mean time I have asked a few of the greats if they want to take it down the runway. I would set-up the suspension/tires for it and I'm confident that the right guy would have an easy 10 out of it. Im likely a good 11.7.
03-19-2008, 05:10 PM
#16
Safety Car
Member Since: Mar 2007
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 4,235
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LOL, and you think I'm not making a squirmish face EVERY time I push that button? I tense up and squeeze it. I'm a N2O guy with little hits since my 2001 was set-up with it.
My car is barely able to handle the power I have n/a even with r-compund tires. Adding a small shot is all it can take. The small shots and only shotting in 3rd makes for about 40 hits or so. That lasts me months because I dont go spraying everytime a minivan wants to pass me.
My track days proved long ago that I'm no great shifter. I like it but I'm ready for a A6 if they figure out the weaknesses. In the mean time I have asked a few of the greats if they want to take it down the runway. I would set-up the suspension/tires for it and I'm confident that the right guy would have an easy 10 out of it. Im likely a good 11.7.
My car is barely able to handle the power I have n/a even with r-compund tires. Adding a small shot is all it can take. The small shots and only shotting in 3rd makes for about 40 hits or so. That lasts me months because I dont go spraying everytime a minivan wants to pass me.
My track days proved long ago that I'm no great shifter. I like it but I'm ready for a A6 if they figure out the weaknesses. In the mean time I have asked a few of the greats if they want to take it down the runway. I would set-up the suspension/tires for it and I'm confident that the right guy would have an easy 10 out of it. Im likely a good 11.7.
I'm probably in the same boat; it's much easier to launch an A6, and they (the A6's) have some of the top ten 1/4 mile times for both the LS2s and LS3s. I think for them it's tuning the shift points and dealing with TM are two of the biggest things, but I don't have any personal experience.
I did get pretty decent at launching an AWD evo, (12.8@106 with a 1.7 ft '60) but the Vette is a different beast, I still haven't mastered it. I haven't taken my M6 Z51 to a dragstrip, but I'd guess from the average times in Gainesville, I'd be hard pressed to beat that 12.8, but with a 110-114 trap) - a guy with a gently modded C5Z06 the day I was there with the Evo ran three consecutive 13.0's at 110-112-ish - he couldn't hook up... He was the FloridaSpinMonster of the day.
Alright, I guess that's it - peace out!
03-19-2008, 07:21 PM
#17
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
Hmm. the dry shot described above seems a little overthought..
I have my twin nozzle set up in the aircleaner so it hits soft, for traction.. I just used the timing table and set the timing to come out when the grms/percly came above what the car does on the motor.It runs perfect on the motor and only pulls timing out whenthe nos comes through the meter.. The Lean spike is VERY SLIGHT. I know it seems stupid and simple but My car has had DOZENS on bottles run through it and has had up to 2 45 jets in at once.. The car has run best with two 40s in it. It makes about 150 at the wheels extra with 2 40's
I have my twin nozzle set up in the aircleaner so it hits soft, for traction.. I just used the timing table and set the timing to come out when the grms/percly came above what the car does on the motor.It runs perfect on the motor and only pulls timing out whenthe nos comes through the meter.. The Lean spike is VERY SLIGHT. I know it seems stupid and simple but My car has had DOZENS on bottles run through it and has had up to 2 45 jets in at once.. The car has run best with two 40s in it. It makes about 150 at the wheels extra with 2 40's
I do think larger hits work that way but people with 500rwhp from a H/C package and every bolt-on immaginable cant afford the inital lean spike with some cells not reducing timing. It will produce KR on a scan.
I would like to see some scans you have showing what happens with the shot initialization. If you dont have them or never checked, you dont know how bad things can be.
The vast majority of N2O users have mods that are somewhat light and the tunes arent so aggressive to maximize N/A opration. Cars that run the ragged edge of timing and fuel curves in this manner take a chance with having the system set-up so loosely. Overthough is what every guy calls it until they detonate.
IN a final point, I also want to add that I posted this to share what can be done and not what should be done by all. If some of these tuning methods work for someone then I achieved my goal. I didnt post here to tell everyone that this is the way all installs should be done. Sometimes certain options arent available to all owners and this one works. Telling me its overthough and there is an easier way of doing it wasnt what I was looking for. I want to know all options and there are others who share the same opinion.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
03-20-2008, 10:19 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Details...
Spin Monster- First off, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write this up!!! I was looking for almost exactly what you wrote up, I was looking for more of a "how-to" verses "why dry is better" though, but hey, beggers can't be choosers...
I hope this thread is the place to ask these questions, I'm sure some others on here have to be on a more simple plane of existence such as myself, so here are some questions:
1. What does "max effort H/C" stand for? EDITED (I figured it finally H/C Heads/Cam..)
2. How exactly do you wire up the resistor to intercept the IAT at the MAF, and what PN at Radio Shack is the Resistor or what should I ask for?
3. How are you setting up the RPM Window switch? Are you using a analog output from HPT somehow or some type of crank position sensor fed device?
4. How are you hooking up the WOT switch? again, through HPT somehow, off the TPS somehow or do you use a mechanical switch connected to your go pedal?
5. I've used my HPT to log my injector duty cycle and I'm currently at 88% with the mods below, do you think I need to bump up injectors before even attempting a dry shot? I'm at 417rwhp, 395rwtrq.
Thanks again for all your help!
I hope this thread is the place to ask these questions, I'm sure some others on here have to be on a more simple plane of existence such as myself, so here are some questions:
1. What does "max effort H/C" stand for? EDITED (I figured it finally H/C Heads/Cam..)
2. How exactly do you wire up the resistor to intercept the IAT at the MAF, and what PN at Radio Shack is the Resistor or what should I ask for?
3. How are you setting up the RPM Window switch? Are you using a analog output from HPT somehow or some type of crank position sensor fed device?
4. How are you hooking up the WOT switch? again, through HPT somehow, off the TPS somehow or do you use a mechanical switch connected to your go pedal?
5. I've used my HPT to log my injector duty cycle and I'm currently at 88% with the mods below, do you think I need to bump up injectors before even attempting a dry shot? I'm at 417rwhp, 395rwtrq.
Thanks again for all your help!
Last edited by Isaiah48; 03-20-2008 at 12:39 PM.
03-20-2008, 09:19 PM
#19
I agree about the small shot, and max effort comments. My car has headers and a z06 cam and is far from max effort.. The other thing not mentioned in my post (sorry) is for safty sake I mix 110 with 93 when I plan on going out and spraying down the house. I do spray the car without the good gas sometimes though and have scanned it. The A/R jumps about 3/4 of a point leaner than where the it is at the time of the initial hit. the computer is VERY fast and I did not think this would work either, but it does.. 2 40's equal about a 200 shot this is what has ben in the car for dozens of bottles..
