How much RWHP can the Stock LS7 block handle?
08-19-2008, 08:43 PM
#41
Instructor
Member Since: Jul 2006
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not being A douche but 450 hp on a busa isnt even close to this guy...
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/h...sta_176966.htm
once again not causing conflict but this is something that you HAVE to see
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/h...sta_176966.htm
once again not causing conflict but this is something that you HAVE to see
08-19-2008, 08:44 PM
#42
Vind,
I'm not interested in a debate with you (most recently you attack the menagerie of races I offer up for Zen to choose from) nor am I interested in my laundry list of parts/people that have helped me get my cars together over the years.
To answer your question, yes, I do just wake up and decide to go buy cars (boats, planes, and bikes, too!) and rip them apart and build beasts. Like Paul said, it's a compulsion with me! I'm definitely compensating for a small hoohoo!
Several folks (Senior members here - over 10 years on this forum...) have stepped in and vouched for me. These folks have been to my homes, seen my garages, ridden in my cars, and said, "he's the real dealio." Yet, you continue to allege that I'm here spewing bad info.
As far as my wallet/bank account, surely you're wise enough (owning a TTZ06 yourself) to know that there are folks out there that do quite well for themselves. You'd have a stroke if you knew what else I own (since you're so interested in my 3 Z06's). I'm not here to brag, just pointing out that I keep a pretty low profile for what I have accomplished.
You're right, I don't post build pics, dyno graphs, etc... I don't like to brag and I like to be quiet unless I can help. I simply chime-in from time to time to help others in this forum since I'm not new to FI/Corvette performance in general and try to keep a low profile. Of course, I also ask questions here, because I do a lot of my own work. Just recently I had maxed out a set of injectors and needed help on my car that still runs the stock PCM! I'm not so arrogant to think I have all the answers, but I help when I can.
If you choose to not accept my advice (and my advice is pretty spot-on with most of the major vendors/tuners here - see the post before my that reads "we've got so many stock-blocked 900+ RWHP Z06's running around that we've lost count" for just a sample of the tuners/vendors in agreement with my advice), then so be it.
I'm not interested in a debate with you (most recently you attack the menagerie of races I offer up for Zen to choose from) nor am I interested in my laundry list of parts/people that have helped me get my cars together over the years.
To answer your question, yes, I do just wake up and decide to go buy cars (boats, planes, and bikes, too!) and rip them apart and build beasts. Like Paul said, it's a compulsion with me! I'm definitely compensating for a small hoohoo!
Several folks (Senior members here - over 10 years on this forum...) have stepped in and vouched for me. These folks have been to my homes, seen my garages, ridden in my cars, and said, "he's the real dealio." Yet, you continue to allege that I'm here spewing bad info.
As far as my wallet/bank account, surely you're wise enough (owning a TTZ06 yourself) to know that there are folks out there that do quite well for themselves. You'd have a stroke if you knew what else I own (since you're so interested in my 3 Z06's). I'm not here to brag, just pointing out that I keep a pretty low profile for what I have accomplished.
You're right, I don't post build pics, dyno graphs, etc... I don't like to brag and I like to be quiet unless I can help. I simply chime-in from time to time to help others in this forum since I'm not new to FI/Corvette performance in general and try to keep a low profile. Of course, I also ask questions here, because I do a lot of my own work. Just recently I had maxed out a set of injectors and needed help on my car that still runs the stock PCM! I'm not so arrogant to think I have all the answers, but I help when I can.
If you choose to not accept my advice (and my advice is pretty spot-on with most of the major vendors/tuners here - see the post before my that reads "we've got so many stock-blocked 900+ RWHP Z06's running around that we've lost count" for just a sample of the tuners/vendors in agreement with my advice), then so be it.
08-19-2008, 08:48 PM
#43
arctic,
My 'busa made 632 RWHP before I sold it. However, there are a couple of 800 RWHP busa's now. Of course, they are completely useless as was mine when it made over 600 at the wheel...
Edit: Sorry! Let's get this thread back on track!
Anyone else make killer power with a stock LS7 block?
My 'busa made 632 RWHP before I sold it. However, there are a couple of 800 RWHP busa's now. Of course, they are completely useless as was mine when it made over 600 at the wheel...
Edit: Sorry! Let's get this thread back on track!
Anyone else make killer power with a stock LS7 block?
08-19-2008, 09:44 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Sep 2005
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No worries, I would definitely show up to race.
But as you suggested, back on topic...
So I decided to get an outside opinion from an experienced aircraft engineer. He pretty much makes a living finding out what will break and what will hold, and ensuring proper tolerances are there. His take?
Even if you did make that kind of power with a stock LS7, you'd be driving on borrowed time. Aluminum is softer, weaker, and less dense. Not to mention, it’s reaction to heat is different (Under the right conditions, its lattice structure can crystallize and harden.. which means your cylinder walls become brittle, and would wear and crack more easily) depending on the alloy.
This doesn't even take into account the the cylinder walls of the LS7. With the distance between cylinder walls so small, stresses due to standard combustion and stroking automatically rise..
Then my favorite part... When I asked what would happen... I get this:
Depends on the failure mode.. If the extra heat changes the properties of the aluminum, it’ll be bad.. You could start shaving metal off your cylinder walls, slightly lose compression over time, and ultimately one afternoon on the road, FOD out your engine (Foreign Object Damage), which would cause all sorts of mechanical problems and probably a stroke with brain damage.
If you have thin walls and don’t sleeve your bores, the extra forces could cause cracking between the cylinder walls. They can repair this sometimes with further boring/sleeving, depending on the crack depth, but if the cracks go all the way through to the next cylinder, it’s likely time for a new block. (and stroke with brain damage.)
Wow.. Gotta love the professional opinions, eh?
But as you suggested, back on topic...
So I decided to get an outside opinion from an experienced aircraft engineer. He pretty much makes a living finding out what will break and what will hold, and ensuring proper tolerances are there. His take?
Even if you did make that kind of power with a stock LS7, you'd be driving on borrowed time. Aluminum is softer, weaker, and less dense. Not to mention, it’s reaction to heat is different (Under the right conditions, its lattice structure can crystallize and harden.. which means your cylinder walls become brittle, and would wear and crack more easily) depending on the alloy.
This doesn't even take into account the the cylinder walls of the LS7. With the distance between cylinder walls so small, stresses due to standard combustion and stroking automatically rise..
Then my favorite part... When I asked what would happen... I get this:
Depends on the failure mode.. If the extra heat changes the properties of the aluminum, it’ll be bad.. You could start shaving metal off your cylinder walls, slightly lose compression over time, and ultimately one afternoon on the road, FOD out your engine (Foreign Object Damage), which would cause all sorts of mechanical problems and probably a stroke with brain damage.
If you have thin walls and don’t sleeve your bores, the extra forces could cause cracking between the cylinder walls. They can repair this sometimes with further boring/sleeving, depending on the crack depth, but if the cracks go all the way through to the next cylinder, it’s likely time for a new block. (and stroke with brain damage.)
Wow.. Gotta love the professional opinions, eh?
Last edited by o0 zeno 0o; 08-19-2008 at 09:47 PM.
08-20-2008, 12:36 PM
#45
Racer
edward, i would like to see some info on your builds, not because i don't believe you, but because i'm in the process of getting a TT put on my Z06. I have been askin everyone about suggestions/builds that people have been using.
to the OP, you got it right.. you CAN put 1k rwhp on a stock block, but it is borrowed time. i'm using an LSx for my build.
to the OP, you got it right.. you CAN put 1k rwhp on a stock block, but it is borrowed time. i'm using an LSx for my build.
08-20-2008, 12:59 PM
#46
Jeenis,
Plenty of info on TT builds in this forum.
If you've got specific questions (I know a great deal about TTi stuff and APS stuff since I've owned both), then feel free to PM me.
All the best,
Ed T.
Plenty of info on TT builds in this forum.
If you've got specific questions (I know a great deal about TTi stuff and APS stuff since I've owned both), then feel free to PM me.
All the best,
Ed T.
08-21-2008, 09:43 PM
#47
Safety Car
Did you ever see this article on this build?
http://www.lingenfelter.com/Lingenfe...06ZO6TTBGB.htm
Well, feel free to call them youself. Your obviously not going to take my word for it, but I'm certian they'd be glad to confirm how many 1500+hp builds they've done, and they have yet to experience any block failures. Your making it painfully obvious to everyone that you're new to this.
And once they do confirm it, at least be man enough to post on this thread and admit that you've been schooled. (Doubt it though).
Last edited by tlaselva; 08-21-2008 at 09:51 PM.
08-22-2008, 01:01 AM
#48
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Sep 2005
Location: Raleigh NC
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And you think they don't build anything other than they're generic packages?
Did you ever see this article on this build?
http://www.lingenfelter.com/Lingenfe...06ZO6TTBGB.htm
Well, feel free to call them youself. Your obviously not going to take my word for it, but I'm certian they'd be glad to confirm how many 1500+hp builds they've done, and they have yet to experience any block failures. Your making it painfully obvious to everyone that you're new to this.
And once they do confirm it, at least be man enough to post on this thread and admit that you've been schooled. (Doubt it though).
Did you ever see this article on this build?
http://www.lingenfelter.com/Lingenfe...06ZO6TTBGB.htm
Well, feel free to call them youself. Your obviously not going to take my word for it, but I'm certian they'd be glad to confirm how many 1500+hp builds they've done, and they have yet to experience any block failures. Your making it painfully obvious to everyone that you're new to this.
And once they do confirm it, at least be man enough to post on this thread and admit that you've been schooled. (Doubt it though).
08-24-2008, 12:44 AM
#49
Former Vendor
LPE LS7 block turbo engines
We use the stock LS7 block and the STOCK LS7 sleeves on the 800, 1000 and higher LS7 engines. On the 1500+ hp engine that several have referred to we used the stock block and the stock sleeves but we made a block girdle to stiffen the bottom end of the block. We didn't see any failures that made us decide to make the girdle but we felt that given the cylinder pressures involved it was worth having more safety factor.
Keep in mind that with engines as large as these even with turbochargers we aren't at very high cylinder pressures/BMEP's compared to many of the small 4 cylinder engines with turbochargers.
What really tends to fail things is detonation and the massive increase in cylinder pressures that occur with detonation.
BTW - the Darton LS7 sleeves we have seen and used are the same thickness as the LS7 sleeves. The LS7 sleeves are a press in sleeve and the Darton sleeves (at least the ones we have used for the LS7 block) press into the same size hole. Also, cylinder wall thickness needs to be balanced with block material thickness as well.
Keep in mind that with engines as large as these even with turbochargers we aren't at very high cylinder pressures/BMEP's compared to many of the small 4 cylinder engines with turbochargers.
What really tends to fail things is detonation and the massive increase in cylinder pressures that occur with detonation.
BTW - the Darton LS7 sleeves we have seen and used are the same thickness as the LS7 sleeves. The LS7 sleeves are a press in sleeve and the Darton sleeves (at least the ones we have used for the LS7 block) press into the same size hole. Also, cylinder wall thickness needs to be balanced with block material thickness as well.
08-24-2008, 12:48 AM
#50
No worries, I would definitely show up to race.
But as you suggested, back on topic...
So I decided to get an outside opinion from an experienced aircraft engineer. He pretty much makes a living finding out what will break and what will hold, and ensuring proper tolerances are there. His take?
Even if you did make that kind of power with a stock LS7, you'd be driving on borrowed time. Aluminum is softer, weaker, and less dense. Not to mention, it’s reaction to heat is different (Under the right conditions, its lattice structure can crystallize and harden.. which means your cylinder walls become brittle, and would wear and crack more easily) depending on the alloy.
This doesn't even take into account the the cylinder walls of the LS7. With the distance between cylinder walls so small, stresses due to standard combustion and stroking automatically rise..
Then my favorite part... When I asked what would happen... I get this:
Depends on the failure mode.. If the extra heat changes the properties of the aluminum, it’ll be bad.. You could start shaving metal off your cylinder walls, slightly lose compression over time, and ultimately one afternoon on the road, FOD out your engine (Foreign Object Damage), which would cause all sorts of mechanical problems and probably a stroke with brain damage.
If you have thin walls and don’t sleeve your bores, the extra forces could cause cracking between the cylinder walls. They can repair this sometimes with further boring/sleeving, depending on the crack depth, but if the cracks go all the way through to the next cylinder, it’s likely time for a new block. (and stroke with brain damage.)
Wow.. Gotta love the professional opinions, eh?
But as you suggested, back on topic...
So I decided to get an outside opinion from an experienced aircraft engineer. He pretty much makes a living finding out what will break and what will hold, and ensuring proper tolerances are there. His take?
Even if you did make that kind of power with a stock LS7, you'd be driving on borrowed time. Aluminum is softer, weaker, and less dense. Not to mention, it’s reaction to heat is different (Under the right conditions, its lattice structure can crystallize and harden.. which means your cylinder walls become brittle, and would wear and crack more easily) depending on the alloy.
This doesn't even take into account the the cylinder walls of the LS7. With the distance between cylinder walls so small, stresses due to standard combustion and stroking automatically rise..
Then my favorite part... When I asked what would happen... I get this:
Depends on the failure mode.. If the extra heat changes the properties of the aluminum, it’ll be bad.. You could start shaving metal off your cylinder walls, slightly lose compression over time, and ultimately one afternoon on the road, FOD out your engine (Foreign Object Damage), which would cause all sorts of mechanical problems and probably a stroke with brain damage.
If you have thin walls and don’t sleeve your bores, the extra forces could cause cracking between the cylinder walls. They can repair this sometimes with further boring/sleeving, depending on the crack depth, but if the cracks go all the way through to the next cylinder, it’s likely time for a new block. (and stroke with brain damage.)
Wow.. Gotta love the professional opinions, eh?
08-24-2008, 03:20 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Sep 2005
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 980
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Regardless, I stand corrected. Guess that makes me the village idiot of the month. Oh well, I'll take my lumps.
Last edited by o0 zeno 0o; 08-24-2008 at 06:08 PM.
09-01-2008, 12:53 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
said this before....
doesnt matter whos or what, if u rattle it hard enough it will crack.
so it comes down to the tune. granted stronger block allows for more error. to say no way u can do that on a ls7 means that ur tuner sucks
doesnt matter whos or what, if u rattle it hard enough it will crack.
so it comes down to the tune. granted stronger block allows for more error. to say no way u can do that on a ls7 means that ur tuner sucks
09-08-2008, 11:52 AM
#53
Melting Slicks
We use the stock LS7 block and the STOCK LS7 sleeves on the 800, 1000 and higher LS7 engines. On the 1500+ hp engine that several have referred to we used the stock block and the stock sleeves but we made a block girdle to stiffen the bottom end of the block. We didn't see any failures that made us decide to make the girdle but we felt that given the cylinder pressures involved it was worth having more safety factor.
Keep in mind that with engines as large as these even with turbochargers we aren't at very high cylinder pressures/BMEP's compared to many of the small 4 cylinder engines with turbochargers.
What really tends to fail things is detonation and the massive increase in cylinder pressures that occur with detonation.
BTW - the Darton LS7 sleeves we have seen and used are the same thickness as the LS7 sleeves. The LS7 sleeves are a press in sleeve and the Darton sleeves (at least the ones we have used for the LS7 block) press into the same size hole. Also, cylinder wall thickness needs to be balanced with block material thickness as well.
Keep in mind that with engines as large as these even with turbochargers we aren't at very high cylinder pressures/BMEP's compared to many of the small 4 cylinder engines with turbochargers.
What really tends to fail things is detonation and the massive increase in cylinder pressures that occur with detonation.
BTW - the Darton LS7 sleeves we have seen and used are the same thickness as the LS7 sleeves. The LS7 sleeves are a press in sleeve and the Darton sleeves (at least the ones we have used for the LS7 block) press into the same size hole. Also, cylinder wall thickness needs to be balanced with block material thickness as well.
If so, does that mean they they can handle more hp than the LS7?
09-08-2008, 08:55 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
09-12-2008, 11:44 AM
#58
Melting Slicks
09-12-2008, 01:29 PM
#59
Former Vendor
The material the dartons are made of are more forgiving than the stock sleeve however. Ive seen many a cracked LS7 sleeves. Jason is right, keeping the detonation out of it is what will keep them, and everything else, alive.
On of Mr Bigs best friends had a Yellow Z from us, heads/cam/billet rods/Mahle pistons, and sprayed it everyweekend on a stock block, upwards of 900 rwtq, and its still alive. I had a customer with a bone stock car get a batch of bad gas, and it cracked the stock sleeve. Its all in the engine calibration. Now having said that, I opt for the strongest piece available. when you have a 100k+ investment, whats another few thousand?
Louis
On of Mr Bigs best friends had a Yellow Z from us, heads/cam/billet rods/Mahle pistons, and sprayed it everyweekend on a stock block, upwards of 900 rwtq, and its still alive. I had a customer with a bone stock car get a batch of bad gas, and it cracked the stock sleeve. Its all in the engine calibration. Now having said that, I opt for the strongest piece available. when you have a 100k+ investment, whats another few thousand?
Louis