Rkreigh

IF the fuel system and the ECM tuning are major obstacles consider this approach.

do a custom intake manifold (hogans or any of the other fabricators should be able to handle it) and run another computer (pro EFI, Halltech, big stuff, dominator, megasquirt, ect...) that brings another set of injectors online under boost.

by adding another complete fuel system (with E85 or race gas) and adding another 8 injectors activated controlled by a dedicated computer triggered by a hobbs pressure switch sensing the boost you could perhaps avoid some of the complexities and limitations of the factory ecm/DI

pretty sure this is not only possible, it would be cool to run dual fuel.

the wideband 02s will help out trimming the fuel system under boost and the higher octane of either E85 or race gas would help the high compression LT1 live under boost without running the expensive stuff under crooze.

not saying that this is the BEST and certainly not the cheapest option, but I am saying it can be done. like to hear from the experts what they think of this approach, I've seen it done on some "wheel to wheel" builds (the dual rotex Nova) and it seemed to work really well.

OP,

give Doug & ECS some credit where credit is due, they build some extremely fast corvettes and will "do whatever it takes" to figure out and repeat this no doubt with the C7. they know a thing or two about tuning and it will take everyone time to figure out and engineer the c7

they may not be able to post up running examples yet, but they will!

good luck with your project and keep us posted!

OD3G

At the end of the day, it's still a 4 stroke internal combustion engine. It takes fuel, air, and spark. No un-tunable magic fairy dust just because its a "new" engine family/management system. Calm the **** down.

Unreal

The ford people with DI are having no issues making big power. If needed they just add a secondary fuel system. I rear somewhere that the GM DI systems have 3 injectors available, low, med, and high flow ones. That the high flow and fuel pump are going to support big power. We will have to wait and see, but worst case it is wiring in a haltech/proefi/etc and just running a separate set of injectors. For anyone wanting 1000hp twin turbo, this is probably a small cost to add to the whole build if it turns out it is needed.

chuntington101

If you are going to all that effort to fir a second set of injectors, why not just BIN the stock setup altogether and run it like a normal engine? Would be a lot easier and its what the Audi guys used to do until aftermarket ECU that could handle the DI injectors were developed.

Chris.

Unreal

Exactly, it is a motor. Fueling it maybe more of a pain than c6s, but it will be done easy enough.

irun4cops

i agree, we will figure it out.

And i do have respect for ecs and know they do great work.

Im not trying to take anything away from their builds up until now.

I also know human nature and ego sometimes get int he way when people are like "yeah, we've got it, go ahead and send me your car"

And then my car is in a hundred pieces... and they dont "got it" and 6 months goes by till a proper fuel injector solution is figured out.

Or even worse, my car is the test mule for the whole thing and then they are like "we will cut you a break on this 500 hours of labor we have on your car, dont worry!"

So, i made it loud and clear at the begining of the thread, i dont want to hear about successes, before successes are reached.

If doug or anyone want to come in and explain step by step what they plan to do....

thats another thing. Now we are learning.

I have no patience for "we've got this"

Ill give you a prime example, back in 06 there was not a sleek in tank fuel system running double or tripple in tank pumps. I invented one from scratch as did nick yotckins (spelling, sorry)

It wasnt until the past couple years, RSI finally mass produced a sleek in tank setup.. and even once they did that, their system still had issues i saw coming from a mile away... and I had them custom build my kit, and paid them extra, even tho at the time, they didnt see the need for my "odd request"

Not long after, a lot of their first fuel systems had issues, and mine did not.

So, since i know we are all human, and i know theres always room for improvement, i said it before and ill say it again, the "we got this" attitude... prior to having a running car, does not interest me.

There is no doubt ECS will be one of the first companies to figure this mess out.

But there is also no guarantee we wont be in the middle of february before they are the first shop to succeed in doing it.

As said before, my car and a big check will be at the first shop who has a car to prove they have it figured out.

PowerLabs

I didn't say that, I just said fueling the car is going to be a non trivial undertaking. You should tone the sarcasm down, you might get more people helping you that way...


That is the injector GM is currently using on the LT1. There is no upgrade for it.

I have not yet seen a 1000HP Porsche that was direct injection; they are all pre-2011 which is the year they went GDI. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen any GDI vehicle making that kind of power yet.


That logic is seriously flawed. Direct injection injectors are tailored to specific vehicles; the shaft size is specific to the deck thickness of the head as well as where they can locate it within the head, and the spray pattern is specific to the installation angle as well as the piston geometry. Not only would it not fit, it would also not spray fuel where you wanted the fuel to be if it did fit.
Illustrated:
Delphi Multec 12 (LT1 engine):

Spray holes: Note that they are drilled at an offset because the injector comes into the head at an angle:


Porsche DFI. It has a cover over the tip but this injector uses only one seal and the spray angle is also different:


BMW 335 injector: piezo electric, hollow cone, central spray:


You get the idea...

irun4cops

great info power labs.

i wasnt saying you said none on earth have boost... i was saying thats my belief. I was giving you props.

Anyway, maybe i exaggerate when i say 1000hp... are there not 800 or 900 hp porsches with DI?

irun4cops

would the computer be compatible with the c6 injectors?

PowerLabs

I doubt someone wrote that: First of all it is not a GM system, it s a Delphi system, and the product lineup is right here:
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto...ys/homogenous/
There is no "low, medium and high flow"; there is only Multec 12 and Multec 12.1 which is the same injector flow rated 40 bar higher to get 1um better droplet size (presumably for emissions).
I think we are downplaying what a pita it is to add a second set of injectors. You will need a second ECU to control them and then both ECUs will have their own fuelling tables set up to try and get enough fuel. It is doable but you can forget about it on a $6K supercharger bolt-on kit...


That pump is the size of a lemon, it will flow enough fuel for maybe 20% more power and that is it. Also if you had a fuel pump capable of flowing 1000+ HP worth of fuel it would be running into a very agressive bypass all the time, and you will need to replace the factory control solenoid because it will not be able to deal with the flow.



I'm excited to see what the aftermarket brings to the C7; it will be a good challenge. I was hoping someone here would appreciate the differences between fuelling a GDI and a port injected engine where you can slap another pump in the tank, drill out the holes on the injector, and call it good, but I guess not too many people get it. "an engine is an engine", right?

PowerLabs

I don't know, if you look at AMS tuning's Alpha 9 and Alpha 10 pages you will see that they are using upgraded port injectors on their 997s, so I assume these are pre-GDI cars.
I know in the BMW world (my winter car is a 335XI Coupe) we are making another 150HP with the factory fuel system before the car needs a pump; after six year on the market someone finally made an upgraded fuel pump for that engine and now running 3000PSI of fuel pressure you can get a 200+HP gain on that car.

Unreal

GM parts catalog list "low flow" "high flow" and "nominal flow" injectors for LT1 direct injection.

PowerLabs

Got a link?

hamhead

I'll throw in my two cents even though I have very little interest in the C7 as a whole as I at least have experience with multiple injector setups.

My old project was a 2001 Hyundai Tiburon - stout 2.0L motor but no aftermarket and there was no HPTuners or anything like that to work within the stock ECU. Hyundai obviously didn't attract a lot of tuners at the time.

I ran an additional set of four injectors. The great thing about this is is the driveability. Keeping the stock injector size, the car runs like stock out of boost. You have no issues with tuning idle/cruise like when you step up to massively huge injectors and have to deal with scaling them down. Very user friendly to the DIY tuner.

This really wasn't a huge expense either. Probably cost me $700 total including the software (I used Megasquirt), injectors, additional fuel rail, and everything else. Obviously this wasn't direct injection so it might present additional challenges, but I felt running additional injectors was actually fairly easy process when I went through it a couple years ago.

PowerLabs

That is a clever way to do it; in fact I highly suspect this is exactly how it will have to be addressed in the aftermarket. The problem is that with newer, higher feature cars this starts to create a lot of unforseen problems. I can think of more than ten off the top of my head, most of which have to do with the ECU shutting fuel off to control wheel spin while your second bank of injectors is still firing, the ECU seeing a tremendous amount of airflow coming in via the MAF and going into limp mode, throttle % vs predicted airflow errors, engine load calculations being completely wrong making traction control useless, etc. It will take a lot of the features out of the car (launch control, traction control, performance traction management, electronic limited slip differential operation will be impaired, etc) even after you deal with all the errors associated with the engine flowing much more air and making much more power than the ECU expects it to be.

irun4cops

so, back to a question i had earlier, and im more serious now than ever...

if i put a ls7 twin turbo motor in my c7... what problems do i face with computer, etc... and can it be done?

Corvettinator

Just got an e-mail yesterday from Hennessey announcing their 700 (engine) HP C7 package.

HPE700 Supercharged Corvette C7 Upgrade

I've never used Hennessey, and I have no opinion on them, just an FYI.

DOUG @ ECS

Thanks you,
I am responding to you because your post has common sense which I appreciate. All the major shops have their TT/SC/headers etc etc etc already started. Fine tuning them will take some time of course, which is why we will not put up a post about our "supercharger kits in progress"
because that's jumping the gun a bit in my opinion and often comes back to bite those who do.
We have been working with direct injection on the 6 cylinder Camaro's for some time now and have installed supercharger kits too. Yes it is a bit different, but not night and day to where we, or anyone else in the industry we speak too, are worried about it. Now we are getting into the trucks since it has the same processor, same as many other shops.

Just like when the C5 came out, it will be a little while until the tuning is "smooth sailing", but it will come much faster now in my opinion then it did then. Tuning capabilities in general are much farther advanced now.

irun4cops

Hennessey is reading this thread, as we speak, realizing he's got some work to do.

irun4cops

Thanks for coming back doug. I think we are all on a more similar page now.

What kind of gains could you accomplish on the 6 cylinder camaro before you ran out of fuel?