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Old 03-04-2015, 09:47 PM
  #41  
CI GS
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I hear you guys loud and clear. To be honest, the last thing I need is a race car because I already have one of those! It seems that anything over 650 becomes a handful on the street anyhow, and I'm really not in a big rush to go FI anyway. I'm going to do the cam first and by then I will decide what route to go with the blower. That way I can install a good balancer and pin it at the same time so I won't have to do that later.
Thanks again for all your advice. It gives me a lot to think about.
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:50 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Streetk14 View Post
Exactly. If you think you're going to want more than 700 whp sometime in the future, this probably isn't the blower for you. These things have made ~900 rwhp in cars like the 5th gen Camaro, but they have a much larger crank pulley that fits and can run a much smaller blower pulley due to the shaft design (i.e. belt spacing). You need to spin the blower harder to make more power, and that's a limitation right now for the C6 HB. Really isn't an issue with the intercooler system.

Their warranty is an optional, extra cost option, and isn't something you're paying for in a standard or tuner kit. The Edelbrock "stage 2" kit includes nothing more than a smaller pulley and a C6 Z06 fuel pump. No tuning changes to their canned tune from my understanding.

I basically designed my own "stage 2" Heartbeat kit for when I first bought and installed it. Instead of a Z06 pump, I went with a KB competition BAP and a Racetronix harness + a 90mm blower pulley instead of the standard 96mm. Worked great for a car running headers and 91 octane. A little later, I pulled it down to 81mm and added the Alky Control system. Pretty simple formula, and it works.

ECS and A&A concentrate almost solely on the 'vette market, and their kits are very good if that's what you're looking for. I wasn't too happy with how much cutting, trimming, and chopping I had to do on my previous A&A car, but that doesn't bother some people. I also wasn't a huge fan of the constant blower and BOV noise, but again, that's a personal thing. I also very much enjoy the power under the curve this HB provides for a street driven car while being almost invisible during regular use. Again a personal preference, but I hope you can see where I'm going with this.
How does the Alky Control system work on the HB? Where do you install the nozzle(s)??
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:43 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
How does the Alky Control system work on the HB? Where do you install the nozzle(s)??
The nozzle is located in the rubber intake boot right before the throttle body. Yes, there is some debate on long term rotor coating wear from spraying it through the blower, but I'm not too worried about it with straight meth.

You do want to run the MAF based control system Alky Control offers with a PD style blower, though. Instead of the meth flow being based off boost pressure via a MAP sensor, it's based off MAF frequency. Much better metering in relation to engine airflow with such a flat boost curve.

Just to add to what I said earlier.... I've been down the same road as you. Had a medium sized cam in my last LS3 build, with just a hair of positive overlap (+2 degrees). It helped make power and sounded nice, but after living with that build for a few years, it got a little old. I put in in when it was an N/A setup, but soon decided I wanted more power. Probably should have swapped it out for a more blower specific cam, but cam swaps on a C6 kind of suck. I probably could have made the same power I did with the stock cam and a smaller blower pulley too.

I decided I wanted to try to meet my power goals with the stock cam on this next build. And while there's probably an extra ~40 rwhp that could be unleashed with a cam swap, I'm really happy with the car's stock-like manners. I'm still considering putting a cam in this motor, but it would be a PD blower type grind with a lot of negative overlap that keeps the manners very close to stock. An N/A style cam won't be able to do that. Mine wasn't much fun to get stuck in stop & go traffic in. Not horrible, but definitely not like a stock car.

My advice would be to do a blower first, THEN decide if you really want more from a cam. Unless you really want a cam for the sound, then that's my 2 cents. Pinning the crank is a lot less work than doing a cam swap. Jacking up the engine gives you enough room to do it without pulling the steering rack or anything like that. So it's not like you're doing the work twice.

Just like everything on these cars, it's preference. I've tried a bunch of different things with LS motors, and I know what I like and what generally works.

Last edited by Streetk14; 03-04-2015 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:06 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Streetk14 View Post
The nozzle is located in the rubber intake boot right before the throttle body. Yes, there is some debate on long term rotor coating wear from spraying it through the blower, but I'm not too worried about it with straight meth.

You do want to run the MAF based control system Alky Control offers with a PD style blower, though. Instead of the meth flow being based off boost pressure via a MAP sensor, it's based off MAF frequency. Much better metering in relation to engine airflow with such a flat boost curve.

Just to add to what I said earlier.... I've been down the same road as you. Had a medium sized cam in my last LS3 build, with just a hair of positive overlap (+2 degrees). It helped make power and sounded nice, but after living with that build for a few years, it got a little old. I put in in when it was an N/A setup, but soon decided I wanted more power. Probably should have swapped it out for a more blower specific cam, but cam swaps on a C6 kind of suck. I probably could have made the same power I did with the stock cam and a smaller blower pulley too.

I decided I wanted to try to meet my power goals with the stock cam on this next build. And while there's probably an extra ~40 rwhp that could be unleashed with a cam swap, I'm really happy with the car's stock-like manners. I'm still considering putting a cam in this motor, but it would be a PD blower type grind with a lot of negative overlap that keeps the manners very close to stock. An N/A style cam won't be able to do that. Mine wasn't much fun to get stuck in stop & go traffic in. Not horrible, but definitely not like a stock car.

My advice would be to do a blower first, THEN decide if you really want more from a cam. Unless you really want a cam for the sound, then that's my 2 cents. Pinning the crank is a lot less work than doing a cam swap. Jacking up the engine gives you enough room to do it without pulling the steering rack or anything like that. So it's not like you're doing the work twice.

Just like everything on these cars, it's preference. I've tried a bunch of different things with LS motors, and I know what I like and what generally works.
Thanks man. That's very helpful. I will look at the Alky Systems MAF system.
The cam I have in mind is one like what oldmotorhead is running (~224* intake duration and no overlap). I do like the sound of a cam but really just don't want to leave 40hp on the table. But I don't want one that surges or is hard to tune either. I have a 220/234 cam in my 6.2L truck and it makes good power with no real driveability issues. I don't mind the work. It's what I like to do. That's why I bought a GS instead of a ZR1. I wanted something that I could build myself. Call me stupid, but I like the challenge.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:43 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
Thanks man. That's very helpful. I will look at the Alky Systems MAF system.
The cam I have in mind is one like what oldmotorhead is running (~224* intake duration and no overlap). I do like the sound of a cam but really just don't want to leave 40hp on the table. But I don't want one that surges or is hard to tune either. I have a 220/234 cam in my 6.2L truck and it makes good power with no real driveability issues. I don't mind the work. It's what I like to do. That's why I bought a GS instead of a ZR1. I wanted something that I could build myself. Call me stupid, but I like the challenge.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.
Just put the blower on first and see how the 130 more hp feel. I ask my tuner the same thing at first. He said do blower see how it feels then look at a cam. The next year I had to let it breath and put headers and smaller pulley. at that point, I had to get the fuel to it faster, hence the BAP.In May putting in RPS twin full carbon and ECS tranny brace and 4 RE-11s on the corners. And this fall or next spring putting a cam to get it to north of 600whp. See how much fun this is and you get to hear that sucking sound from your wallet. And STREETK14 and OLDMOTORHEAD helped me figure it out good advice from both guys
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:53 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by old motorhead View Post
I know member m_LeDez has an overdriven crank pulley with an 8 rib setup on his Heartbeat. Not sure what blower pulley he's using though.

You'd better have one serious 6L80 if you plan to use a higher stall converter. It's probably twisting 600 ft/lbs at the stock stall speed.
Hey Rodney, I found this photo of m_LeDez's setup on another thread.
Looks like he's running a pretty small (80mm??) 8-rib pulley system.
I wonder if this is the same 80mm 8-rib that Magnuson mentioned on here or something that LMR fabbed?
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:09 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by scottg View Post
Just put the blower on first and see how the 130 more hp feel. I ask my tuner the same thing at first. He said do blower see how it feels then look at a cam. The next year I had to let it breath and put headers and smaller pulley. at that point, I had to get the fuel to it faster, hence the BAP.In May putting in RPS twin full carbon and ECS tranny brace and 4 RE-11s on the corners. And this fall or next spring putting a cam to get it to north of 600whp. See how much fun this is and you get to hear that sucking sound from your wallet. And STREETK14 and OLDMOTORHEAD helped me figure it out good advice from both guys
I hear you. Sounds like you've done some solid planning.
I may need to just do that, and stop chasing my own tail!
To be honest, I need to find a set of drag radials first, because after my recent diff and converter swap, I can't get my car to hook for **** in 1st or 2nd on the GY runflats anymore!
I think when I buy the HB I would just get the smallest pulley available and do a BAP and Meth kit at the same time and get it tuned and be done with that. Thinking about it, those upgrades alone would probably be a bigger gain than a cam. I still want to change the stock balancer for an ATI or IW though, and I thought if I went as far as pulling that, I may as well swap the cam then.
Hopefully, I'll make my fricken mind up soon and do something!
All of you "Heartbeat guys" are great!
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:13 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
Hey Rodney, I found this photo of m_LeDez's setup on another thread.
Looks like he's running a pretty small (80mm??) 8-rib pulley system.
I wonder if this is the same 80mm 8-rib that Magnuson mentioned on here or something that LMR fabbed?
My car should be finished by Saturday. Wait around and see what mine makes with a 102mm throttlebody and a modified LPE ZR1 intake. Plus the nitrous. I may not publish the nitrous numbers but most are concerned about the blower numbers anyways.

If you want 700whp or less and want the car quiet and reliable with good resale value I think the HB is hard to beat. No pun intended. In addition, I think the way the power is delivered really helps with good traction and 60 foots. It comes on very linear. It's not like the instant slam hit of torque that my CTS-V had but it comes on strong at 2000 all the way to redline. I really think this helps the car roll out some and then ramps up quick. The centri setups are all or nothing and I think that makes traction a challenge.

I'm hoping for close to 700whp through my auto. We'll see though because I now have MT 345/35/18s on the car. On my previous dyno runs I had Nitto NT05R 345/30/19s. I'd like to find a set of stock wheels and tires to try on the dyno.
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:39 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
Hey Rodney, I found this photo of m_LeDez's setup on another thread.
Looks like he's running a pretty small (80mm??) 8-rib pulley system.
I wonder if this is the same 80mm 8-rib that Magnuson mentioned on here or something that LMR fabbed?
I think he got the pulley from Magnuson. I remember it being bigger than my 81mm. I did the math and he was spinning his blower faster with the bigger pulley because of his o/d balancer. A 10% o/d balancer and 85mm pulley would be similar to a 77mm pulley driven by a stock balancer. Just to put things in perspective.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:13 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
Hey Rodney, I found this photo of m_LeDez's setup on another thread.
Looks like he's running a pretty small (80mm??) 8-rib pulley system.
I wonder if this is the same 80mm 8-rib that Magnuson mentioned on here or something that LMR fabbed?
I've chatted with him before, and I'm pretty sure he has the 85mm pulley.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:22 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Streetk14 View Post
I've chatted with him before, and I'm pretty sure he has the 85mm pulley.
I have the 81mm and a bigger lower. I think the crank pulley I have is the biggest one I can use. It's either 8" or 8.25". I'm not sure.

I would love to have another 2-3psi more boost!
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Old 03-05-2015, 02:22 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
Hey Rodney, I found this photo of m_LeDez's setup on another thread.
Looks like he's running a pretty small (80mm??) 8-rib pulley system.
I wonder if this is the same 80mm 8-rib that Magnuson mentioned on here or something that LMR fabbed?
Hey guys....sorry for the late reply, but to answer the question I'm running the smallest HB "8-rib" blower pulley available from Magnuson (85mm dia.) along with a Innovators West 8-rib 10% overdrive damper.

The smallest 6-rib HB blower pulley available from Magnuson is the 81mm dia. It's not possible to run a smaller dia. in the 8-rib configuration without modifications due to clearance issues.

Note : The TVS and Heartbeat blower pulleys are not interchangeable.
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Old 03-05-2015, 04:12 PM
  #53  
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Thanks Guys! This is all very helpful info. Monsta01, I can't wait to see how that thing will fly with the new setup. I didn't realize that you had cracked the 9s on a 19" wheel!
I'm betting that you'll get a ~9.6 out of it without the spray. Please let us know how it runs with the Nitrous too. Pictures of your setup would be real sweet as well.
BTW: Did you change the TB "snout" on the blower as well, or just the TB?
How much fabbing/tweaking did you have to do to get the LPE ZR1 intake to work?
m LeDez, that sounds like an awesome rig you have there. Did you ever run it at a dragstrip? If so, how did it run?
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:21 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by CI GS View Post
Thanks Guys! This is all very helpful info. Monsta01, I can't wait to see how that thing will fly with the new setup. I didn't realize that you had cracked the 9s on a 19" wheel!
I'm betting that you'll get a ~9.6 out of it without the spray. Please let us know how it runs with the Nitrous too. Pictures of your setup would be real sweet as well.
BTW: Did you change the TB "snout" on the blower as well, or just the TB?
How much fabbing/tweaking did you have to do to get the LPE ZR1 intake to work?
m LeDez, that sounds like an awesome rig you have there. Did you ever run it at a dragstrip? If so, how did it run?
I ran a [email protected] on 18" MTs.
The shop mildly ported the snout, installed the 102 TB and cut my LPE intake tube, paired it with a silicone coupler to the TB and used the LPE intake. I'm really anxious to see how it works. My only concern is the silicone couple collapsing but they said it shouldn't be an issue. If so we could always find a way to put some reinforcement inside the silicone tube.

If I can hook I predict [email protected] on boost.
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Old 03-05-2015, 11:54 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by m_LeDez View Post
Hey guys....sorry for the late reply, but to answer the question I'm running the smallest HB "8-rib" blower pulley available from Magnuson (85mm dia.)
Well, I guess that answers the 8-rib question, CI. An 81mm 6-rib and overdrive balancer is the best bet to make max boost. Since belt slip doesn't seem to be an issue with this blower, it's kind of a win-win deal. A heavy duty belt tensioner option would be nice just to have, but probably not necessary.


Originally Posted by CI GS View Post

How much fabbing/tweaking did you have to do to get the LPE ZR1 intake to work?
Davenport Motorsports has run the LPE ZR1 intake on a HB build. I was looking at doing the same to my car, but decided against it when I found out the Lingenfelter shroud was proving to be an airflow restriction at higher power levels on ZR1s. I really wanted it for the shroud (to keep IAT1 temps down), so I decided against it for the $$$ they charge.

Monsta just got the tube/filter portion, which will probably be worth a few rwhp with his setup. I don't think the stock HB intake is too much of a restriction at my 620-630 rwhp level, though. I seem to remember Rodney (oldmotorhead) measuring vacuum in his intake during WOT and didn't really find any. His setup is just about identical to mine, but he has a cam.



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Old 03-06-2015, 04:08 AM
  #56  
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My apologies that we have not been active on the CF. As indicated by some well-informed members... although the Corvette is our hero platform & one that we all love, we pay the bills by designing & building exceptionally reliable & quality solutions for a huge range of vehicles.
There are a lot of questions in this thread - I'll answer what I can:
  • There are no "gear changes" possible. The rotors are driven directly by the intake shaft - the gears only keep the rotors synchronised. A gear change would create an instant catastrophic failure.
  • Although we haven't tried fitting a Camaro lid under the C6 cowl, I suspect it will have interference. A cross-section of the two lids overlayed can be seen below.

  • The smallest 8-rib suitable for the C6 balancer offset is 85mm.
  • The 108mm Throttle Bodies & TB Adaptors are available from Magnuson, however the C6 was only done as a prototype. The ZL1 & SS are now production items. If there is genuine interest (orders) we will do the tooling and make them available. The kit will then not be emission compliant and I suspect the warranty will be void. Calibration is not included, & requires skill to get right.
  • If spraying meth (or NO2), I strongly recommend doing it after the rotors, before the Charge Air Coolers (CAC's). You will get more efficient cooling (it will chill the charge rather than cool the rotors) & not damage the rotor coating.
Hoping the above helps ...
Ken.
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Old 03-06-2015, 08:01 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by PerformanceDefined View Post
My apologies that we have not been active on the CF. As indicated by some well-informed members... although the Corvette is our hero platform & one that we all love, we pay the bills by designing & building exceptionally reliable & quality solutions for a huge range of vehicles.
There are a lot of questions in this thread - I'll answer what I can:
  • There are no "gear changes" possible. The rotors are driven directly by the intake shaft - the gears only keep the rotors synchronised. A gear change would create an instant catastrophic failure.
  • Although we haven't tried fitting a Camaro lid under the C6 cowl, I suspect it will have interference. A cross-section of the two lids overlayed can be seen below.

  • The smallest 8-rib suitable for the C6 balancer offset is 85mm.
  • The 108mm Throttle Bodies & TB Adaptors are available from Magnuson, however the C6 was only done as a prototype. The ZL1 & SS are now production items. If there is genuine interest (orders) we will do the tooling and make them available. The kit will then not be emission compliant and I suspect the warranty will be void. Calibration is not included, & requires skill to get right.
  • If spraying meth (or NO2), I strongly recommend doing it after the rotors, before the Charge Air Coolers (CAC's). You will get more efficient cooling (it will chill the charge rather than cool the rotors) & not damage the rotor coating.
Hoping the above helps ...
Ken.
Who wants to try the lid for us?
I am in for the 108mm snout. Build it and they will come.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:14 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Streetk14 View Post
Well, I guess that answers the 8-rib question, CI. An 81mm 6-rib and overdrive balancer is the best bet to make max boost. Since belt slip doesn't seem to be an issue with this blower, it's kind of a win-win deal. A heavy duty belt tensioner option would be nice just to have, but probably not necessary.




Davenport Motorsports has run the LPE ZR1 intake on a HB build. I was looking at doing the same to my car, but decided against it when I found out the Lingenfelter shroud was proving to be an airflow restriction at higher power levels on ZR1s. I really wanted it for the shroud (to keep IAT1 temps down), so I decided against it for the $$$ they charge.

Monsta just got the tube/filter portion, which will probably be worth a few rwhp with his setup. I don't think the stock HB intake is too much of a restriction at my 620-630 rwhp level, though. I seem to remember Rodney (oldmotorhead) measuring vacuum in his intake during WOT and didn't really find any. His setup is just about identical to mine, but he has a cam.
Yep, as per usual, Andy (above) is spot on. I thought he was wrong one time last year and maybe once the year before, but I was mistaken

I found no restriction (vacuum) at WOT when I checked between the filter and throttle body. You might be able to improve the intake temps with a different CAI, but you can't get any better than 0 restriction. That is, unless you're able to get some type of "ram air" effect.

I did measure 3 or 4 inches of vacuum between the throttle body and the blower at WOT. A bigger throttle body and intake tube WOULD be worth doing at my power level (664) and probably at lower power levels too. The higher up you go on the HP scale, the bigger the benefit.

Hey Mr PerformanceDefined. Please consider this my order for the 108 TB and intake tube! I understand my tune will need adjusting. It's been adjusted a time or three already.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:18 AM
  #59  
CI GS
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Originally Posted by PerformanceDefined View Post
My apologies that we have not been active on the CF. As indicated by some well-informed members... although the Corvette is our hero platform & one that we all love, we pay the bills by designing & building exceptionally reliable & quality solutions for a huge range of vehicles.
There are a lot of questions in this thread - I'll answer what I can:
  • There are no "gear changes" possible. The rotors are driven directly by the intake shaft - the gears only keep the rotors synchronised. A gear change would create an instant catastrophic failure.
  • Although we haven't tried fitting a Camaro lid under the C6 cowl, I suspect it will have interference. A cross-section of the two lids overlayed can be seen below.

  • The smallest 8-rib suitable for the C6 balancer offset is 85mm.
  • The 108mm Throttle Bodies & TB Adaptors are available from Magnuson, however the C6 was only done as a prototype. The ZL1 & SS are now production items. If there is genuine interest (orders) we will do the tooling and make them available. The kit will then not be emission compliant and I suspect the warranty will be void. Calibration is not included, & requires skill to get right.
  • If spraying meth (or NO2), I strongly recommend doing it after the rotors, before the Charge Air Coolers (CAC's). You will get more efficient cooling (it will chill the charge rather than cool the rotors) & not damage the rotor coating.
Hoping the above helps ...
Ken.
Thank you Ken! That is indeed very helpful information.
The cutaway of the Vette vs. Camaro lid demonstrates clearly how significant the difference is between the two in terms of more plenum volume and intercooler height/surface area. It should be easy to use that as well to see if we have enough room under the cowl for the Camaro lid. A scale on that drawing would help, so we would know what kind of clearances we are dealing with. A test fitment would obviously be the best way. Surely that is something someone could test on an existing C6 HB system? I would hate to buy a HB now with the regular Vette lid and intercoolers, only to find out later that the Camaro lid could offer significant HP gains at higher boost levels and could fit my C6 if I put a different hood on it (which I most likely will). It also occurs to me that it may be that some spacers on the engine cradle might solve the cowl interference issue too??
It would also obviously be good to see what the difference in output is between the two systems at, say, ~ 10psi, so we woukd know whether the whole exercise would be worthwhile. No one should have to buy a second lid and set of intercoolers (and a hood) to find that out.
It seems that we may be dealing with a circular problem here, in that, Magnuson hasn't seen enough interest in modifying the C6 HB system to offer what could be significant upgrades for the C6 system, but the real problem might be, quite frankly, the lack of promotion of the C6 HB blower by Magnuson. If it wasn't for Davenport posting the first install (at least that I saw) on here, I wouldn't have known these things exist. And if it wasn't for the guys that are posting on here now, I wouldn't have even thought of wasting my time considering the HB, especially in light of the fact that you have some serious competition with the specialized C6 centri kits. Yet, the amount if information posted on Magnuson's website on the HB is the same now as it was then, which is, frankly, quite paltry.
Simply put, if Corvette is indeed your hero platform, wouldn't it make sense to give the guys that have been promoting your business in the C6 domain, against overwhelming resistance, an opportunity to do that better?
I know it's Magnuson's prerogative as to their business model how they approach this. My views are obviously biased, as I admittedly would like to be able to buy a Heartbeat that can make ~700HP at ~12psi, so that I would feel like I spent my 8 and half grand wisely.
I don't mean to complain or offend. Just expressing my heartfelt, honest, albeit biased, opinion.
Thanks again for providing us some more useful information on the potential of this blower.
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Old 03-06-2015, 10:13 AM
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Streetk14
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Originally Posted by old motorhead View Post
Yep, as per usual, Andy (above) is spot on. I thought he was wrong one time last year and maybe once the year before, but I was mistaken
Well, you can mark today on your calendar. Andy was wrong.

Looks like the internal gear change thing isn't happening, and my ASSumption that the Camaro lid might fit probably isn't happening. Of course, it would be hard to know without seeing that overlay.
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