Your thoughts on building a wife friendly fi c6?
05-24-2015, 06:16 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
Yes, I've ran meth on my last 3 LS builds. I don't think meth itself is an issue with cats. I think it's the fact that most running meth are running more boost and making more power.
Some guys have a theory that running rich is harmful to cats. I have to disagree based on experience and what I see in GM factory tune files. Look at a ZR1 file, and you'll see they're in the .71 lambda range (~10.5:1) from 5500 rpm on up. Near peak torque, they still command around .74 (~10.86:1). These are ~550 rwhp cars that need to warranty the cats for 100k miles.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I think it's more about tuning, power level, and how it's driven. I try to keep my boost levels reasonable so I can run a decent amount of ignition timing. That might be tough to do on something like an un-restricted ECS system making ~15 psi.
Some guys just say dump the cats with FI. I like the lack of smell and the more mellow exhaust tone with them. Just this Friday, I finished working on a fully catless BMW 135i. The thing stunk up the entire shop. I could smell it while driving with the windows down. We also had a newer 997 Turbo S in the shop with no cats. Same thing --- smelled like someone was running a 60's small block car in the shop. Everyone was yelling at the tech to turn it off or hook up the ventilation system.
In case you're curious, here's what my car sounds like with the catted ARH headers and ZR1 axle-back:
Some guys have a theory that running rich is harmful to cats. I have to disagree based on experience and what I see in GM factory tune files. Look at a ZR1 file, and you'll see they're in the .71 lambda range (~10.5:1) from 5500 rpm on up. Near peak torque, they still command around .74 (~10.86:1). These are ~550 rwhp cars that need to warranty the cats for 100k miles.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I think it's more about tuning, power level, and how it's driven. I try to keep my boost levels reasonable so I can run a decent amount of ignition timing. That might be tough to do on something like an un-restricted ECS system making ~15 psi.
Some guys just say dump the cats with FI. I like the lack of smell and the more mellow exhaust tone with them. Just this Friday, I finished working on a fully catless BMW 135i. The thing stunk up the entire shop. I could smell it while driving with the windows down. We also had a newer 997 Turbo S in the shop with no cats. Same thing --- smelled like someone was running a 60's small block car in the shop. Everyone was yelling at the tech to turn it off or hook up the ventilation system.
In case you're curious, here's what my car sounds like with the catted ARH headers and ZR1 axle-back:
05-24-2015, 10:30 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Does sound very good. Plenty of sound without being obnoxious. I used to love loud cars, but the older I get the more I appreciate a more refined exhaust tone.
05-24-2015, 11:05 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
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I'm with you on that. I think this one is just about perfect. Just the right tone and volume level. Close the flaps and it turns silent, which can be nice if you want to take a longer drive with the windows up. Or sneak out late at night. Or if a cop is following you.
05-25-2015, 09:12 AM
#25
Instructor
The ultimate setup for a wife approved setup is running 1 7/8" long tube headers, no cats, and the factory NPP exhaust. No cats is essential with forced induction because of the extreme heat built up in the exhaust during long pulls. If you do mostly 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile racing, it may not put your cats at risk, but I do so much 1/2 mile and 1 mile competitions, that it puts the cats at serious risk when you're talking 30 seconds of WOT running. A clogged or broken cat can trash an engine in short order.
I do not like the Magnaflow exhaust with long tubes, cam and no cats. It drones so badly and it is definitely not wife approved. As mentioned, the later year NPP exhaust works best blending quiet cruising, absolutely no drone and really awesome sounding WOT. If you go cam, you'll want to keep overlap low to keep the exhaust from stinking and to keep from sending a bunch of your boost out the exhaust.
I do not like the Magnaflow exhaust with long tubes, cam and no cats. It drones so badly and it is definitely not wife approved. As mentioned, the later year NPP exhaust works best blending quiet cruising, absolutely no drone and really awesome sounding WOT. If you go cam, you'll want to keep overlap low to keep the exhaust from stinking and to keep from sending a bunch of your boost out the exhaust.
05-25-2015, 10:01 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Patrick. Sounds like my Magnaflow has to go. It's a shame because it sounds good right now and it's already on the car but I definitely don't want the drone you mentioned. Also, my car likely won't see the drag strip much so it looks like the cats have to go as well. Back to square one. Lol!
I know what you mean on the cam too and that's a shame because who doesn't like some chop in their idle? I know I do. I will probably do the cam sooner or later and since you're going to be tuning it, I'll get you to spec the cam.
I know what you mean on the cam too and that's a shame because who doesn't like some chop in their idle? I know I do. I will probably do the cam sooner or later and since you're going to be tuning it, I'll get you to spec the cam.
Last edited by Xtremespeed; 05-25-2015 at 10:05 AM.
05-25-2015, 02:21 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I might be pushed to do this sooner than I thought. Pulling the car out of the garage today to take the wife to lunch and noticed a chirping drive belt. Just as I feared, the crank pulley is wobbling all over the place. 
Now I have to figure out which damper to get and I might as well pin the crank while I'm at it. In fact, why do just the damper? I might as well do everything, especially if I'm going to replace the cam. Now is probably the best time to do it all since I have to tear into it to do the damper anyways.
Which pulley is everyone running? If I get an IW I can use the pinning kit that comes with the ECS base kit correct? I was looking at ATI, but then I have to buy a pinning kit also, so the money saved over the IW would be cancelled out by the pinning kit. Also, do I buy an 8 rib pulley in case I want to upgrade later and just run a 6 rib belt on it for now?
This is going to end up being a build thread before long, Lol!
Now I have to figure out which damper to get and I might as well pin the crank while I'm at it. In fact, why do just the damper? I might as well do everything, especially if I'm going to replace the cam. Now is probably the best time to do it all since I have to tear into it to do the damper anyways.Which pulley is everyone running? If I get an IW I can use the pinning kit that comes with the ECS base kit correct? I was looking at ATI, but then I have to buy a pinning kit also, so the money saved over the IW would be cancelled out by the pinning kit. Also, do I buy an 8 rib pulley in case I want to upgrade later and just run a 6 rib belt on it for now?
This is going to end up being a build thread before long, Lol!
Last edited by Xtremespeed; 05-25-2015 at 02:49 PM.
05-25-2015, 05:32 PM
#28
Instructor
I might be pushed to do this sooner than I thought. Pulling the car out of the garage today to take the wife to lunch and noticed a chirping drive belt. Just as I feared, the crank pulley is wobbling all over the place. Now I have to figure out which damper to get and I might as well pin the crank while I'm at it. In fact, why do just the damper? I might as well do everything, especially if I'm going to replace the cam. Now is probably the best time to do it all since I have to tear into it to do the damper anyways.
Which pulley is everyone running? If I get an IW I can use the pinning kit that comes with the ECS base kit correct? I was looking at ATI, but then I have to buy a pinning kit also, so the money saved over the IW would be cancelled out by the pinning kit. Also, do I buy an 8 rib pulley in case I want to upgrade later and just run a 6 rib belt on it for now?
This is going to end up being a build thread before long, Lol!
Now I have to figure out which damper to get and I might as well pin the crank while I'm at it. In fact, why do just the damper? I might as well do everything, especially if I'm going to replace the cam. Now is probably the best time to do it all since I have to tear into it to do the damper anyways.Which pulley is everyone running? If I get an IW I can use the pinning kit that comes with the ECS base kit correct? I was looking at ATI, but then I have to buy a pinning kit also, so the money saved over the IW would be cancelled out by the pinning kit. Also, do I buy an 8 rib pulley in case I want to upgrade later and just run a 6 rib belt on it for now?
This is going to end up being a build thread before long, Lol!
05-25-2015, 08:42 PM
#30
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '15
I am running cats on mine as well. LS2, ECS base kit, meth, restrictor plate opened up some, but still there. 100% stock exhaust. It is incredibly quiet.. if I had the quieter bypass valve it would be eerily quiet. Even now when the bypass valve closes (right around 0 psi "boost"), it is really weird how quiet it gets. Not sure if you know it or not, but bypass valves work the opposite of what most think they do. They are normally open while just cruising down the road.. they close once you begin giving it more throttle and you get closer to atmospheric pressure.
I will most likely switch to Z06 or ZR1 manifolds/cats as I'm assuming they are more up to the task of handling FI power levels. They also aren't too terribly expensive and are a decent upgrade for us LS2 guys.
The more I think about it the more I agree with StreetK--The ZR1's run pretty damn rich from the factory. I'm sure GM didn't do that without reason.. they wouldn't have done it that way if it fried the cats. Running delayed/retarded ignition timing is what kills them the fastest IMO. It's no secret that retarded timing results in more heat going out the exhaust. You can make headers glow at idle if you retard the ignition timing enough, so that is no secret.
If you really want quiet I would strongly recommend you investigate in installing MLV (mass loaded vinyl) in the doors and cargo area at minimum. Do not even think about using dynamat. Great advertising but it's not even close to the noise blocking level of MLV. The noise reduction is quite drastic with MLV.. Also make sure your wheel bearings and tires are good. I had two bad wheel bearings that were making what sounded like regular road noise given that I didn't know any better (were bad when I bought the car) It was literally like someone rolled a window up once I changed those ($75 each for parts..) After new tires, MLV installed in the interior and new wheel bearings my Corvette WITH the supercharger and louder bypass valve is quieter than my truck (Escalade, totally stock)
It just depends on how much power you want. At some point cats are just not going to survive, but I think the factory ceramic cats will hold up to more than most give them credit for.
I will most likely switch to Z06 or ZR1 manifolds/cats as I'm assuming they are more up to the task of handling FI power levels. They also aren't too terribly expensive and are a decent upgrade for us LS2 guys.
The more I think about it the more I agree with StreetK--The ZR1's run pretty damn rich from the factory. I'm sure GM didn't do that without reason.. they wouldn't have done it that way if it fried the cats. Running delayed/retarded ignition timing is what kills them the fastest IMO. It's no secret that retarded timing results in more heat going out the exhaust. You can make headers glow at idle if you retard the ignition timing enough, so that is no secret.
If you really want quiet I would strongly recommend you investigate in installing MLV (mass loaded vinyl) in the doors and cargo area at minimum. Do not even think about using dynamat. Great advertising but it's not even close to the noise blocking level of MLV. The noise reduction is quite drastic with MLV.. Also make sure your wheel bearings and tires are good. I had two bad wheel bearings that were making what sounded like regular road noise given that I didn't know any better (were bad when I bought the car) It was literally like someone rolled a window up once I changed those ($75 each for parts..) After new tires, MLV installed in the interior and new wheel bearings my Corvette WITH the supercharger and louder bypass valve is quieter than my truck (Escalade, totally stock)
It just depends on how much power you want. At some point cats are just not going to survive, but I think the factory ceramic cats will hold up to more than most give them credit for.
Last edited by schpenxel; 05-25-2015 at 10:14 PM.
05-25-2015, 10:10 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the post. Lots of info to consider.
It seems there is a lot of thoughts back and forth on the cats. Factory cats aren't really an option I don't think. I just feel like without the long tube headers, I'm leaving too much on the table.
I understand about the bypass valve. That is the reason I'm concerned with it. I'm not real worried about how loud it is under boost conditions but cruising and decelerating is where I want it quiet.
Your thoughts on the MLV is something I might look into. I don't want to aggravate the neighbors either, so I still want the car quiet outside as well. Definitely appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Lots of good info coming out in this thread so far.
It seems there is a lot of thoughts back and forth on the cats. Factory cats aren't really an option I don't think. I just feel like without the long tube headers, I'm leaving too much on the table.
I understand about the bypass valve. That is the reason I'm concerned with it. I'm not real worried about how loud it is under boost conditions but cruising and decelerating is where I want it quiet.
Your thoughts on the MLV is something I might look into. I don't want to aggravate the neighbors either, so I still want the car quiet outside as well. Definitely appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Lots of good info coming out in this thread so far.
Last edited by Xtremespeed; 05-25-2015 at 10:14 PM.
05-25-2015, 10:13 PM
#32
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St. Jude Donor '15
Thanks for the post. Lots of info to consider.
It seems there is a lot of thoughts back and forth on the cats.
Your thoughts on the MLV is something I might look into. I don't want to aggravate the neighbors either, so I still want the car quiet outside as well. Factory cats aren't really an option I don't think. I just feel like without the long tube headers, I'm leaving too much on the table. Definitely appreciate you sharing your thoughts though. Lots of good info coming out in this thread so far.
It seems there is a lot of thoughts back and forth on the cats.
Your thoughts on the MLV is something I might look into. I don't want to aggravate the neighbors either, so I still want the car quiet outside as well. Factory cats aren't really an option I don't think. I just feel like without the long tube headers, I'm leaving too much on the table. Definitely appreciate you sharing your thoughts though. Lots of good info coming out in this thread so far.
05-25-2015, 10:22 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
No you didn't, I never really mentioned it. For a change I'm actually chasing a dyno number. Not too specific, but somewhere around 700 or better. I've always built my cars for et, but since I'm kinda out of the dragstrip game, I'm building this car mostly for the fun of it. I have a real firm grasp of what kind of hp numbers yield what kind of et's and mph with a given weight and of course, traction. Lol! The number just puts a solid idea in my head of the grin factor that should occur based on previous results.
05-25-2015, 10:54 PM
#34
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St. Jude Donor '15
No you didn't, I never really mentioned it. For a change I'm actually chasing a dyno number. Not too specific, but somewhere around 700 or better. I've always built my cars for et, but since I'm kinda out of the dragstrip game, I'm building this car mostly for the fun of it. I have a real firm grasp of what kind of hp numbers yield what kind of et's and mph with a given weight and of course, traction. Lol! The number just puts a solid idea in my head of the grin factor that should occur based on previous results.
I think what you want is completely doable though. There are too many "simple" 700+RWHP C6's running around now for me to believe that they aren't comfortable/quiet to drive when setup correctly.
05-26-2015, 12:16 AM
#35
Safety Car
The ultimate setup for a wife approved setup is running 1 7/8" long tube headers, no cats, and the factory NPP exhaust. No cats is essential with forced induction because of the extreme heat built up in the exhaust during long pulls. If you do mostly 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile racing, it may not put your cats at risk, but I do so much 1/2 mile and 1 mile competitions, that it puts the cats at serious risk when you're talking 30 seconds of WOT running. A clogged or broken cat can trash an engine in short order.
I do not like the Magnaflow exhaust with long tubes, cam and no cats. It drones so badly and it is definitely not wife approved. As mentioned, the later year NPP exhaust works best blending quiet cruising, absolutely no drone and really awesome sounding WOT. If you go cam, you'll want to keep overlap low to keep the exhaust from stinking and to keep from sending a bunch of your boost out the exhaust.
I do not like the Magnaflow exhaust with long tubes, cam and no cats. It drones so badly and it is definitely not wife approved. As mentioned, the later year NPP exhaust works best blending quiet cruising, absolutely no drone and really awesome sounding WOT. If you go cam, you'll want to keep overlap low to keep the exhaust from stinking and to keep from sending a bunch of your boost out the exhaust.
06-28-2015, 12:20 AM
#36
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Well, this ended up being a build thread after all. Kinda. I'm not going to document everything, but figured since I already had a thread, I might as well share a little.
The wobbling balancer ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back. I was already getting serious about the ECS kit, and Matt at FSP recommended a valve spring upgrade. Since I had to take the balancer off to change it, and needed to replace the valve springs, it seemed like the best time to do the cam as well. Already in there, and it makes more sense money wise to just do it all and tune it once.
The plan is, ECS Novi 1500, Stage 1 fuel system, ID850 injectors, Alky meth kit, Patrick G custom blower cam, BTR springs and pushrods, ARH 1 7/8" headers, 8 rib IW 10% od balancer with the ECS cogged flip kit.
I ordered everything except the cam and headers from Matt at FSP. He has been great to deal with and a big help with all the questions.
Patrick G spec'd the cam and Cam Motion ground it, verified the specs on their cam pro plus machine and shipped it out in less than a week. Patrick and Cam Motion have both also been great to deal with. Patrick will also be doing the tuning for this build.
My 14yo son helped me get started. We pulled the front end apart and replaced the cam and valve springs. No issues at all. Everything went smooth. Replacing the injectors, I noticed my new ID 850's were too short. They forgot to send the adapters. Matt overnighted them to me late Friday evening and I got them Saturday morning. That's customer service. Thanks Matt.
Next I put the headers in. They were mostly easy, but I did have to clearance the frame lip on the passenger side about 1/8" and remove the motor mount nut on the drivers side and lift up slightly to roll the engine so the passenger side header would go in. Even with the starter removed, it wouldn't quite go in. Overall, not too bad. Probably the hardest part was installing the o2 extensions. Took a while to get them routed the way I wanted so they wouldn't get burned.
I've been waiting for almost 5 weeks for the parts from ECS. I finally got the supercharger and stage 1 fuel system yesterday, but still no balancer, so I can't put the front end back together yet since I will need to pin the crank when the balancer gets here, so on to the fuel system.
Cussed the fuel pickup for a while. Finally got everything lined up where I could put the bolts in and discovered that the sending unit was .030" larger than the 1 3/4" hole I drilled with the supplied hole saw. Had to take everything back apart, enlarge the hole in the tank with a die grinder, and then fight the sending unit again to get it lined up. Finally got the sending unit buttoned up and moved to building the fuel lines. There are 2 lines you have to assemble yourself, and the length in the instructions for the pickup to fuel pump hose is longer than the hose provided. I assume something has changed and the instructions haven't been updated. If not, my hose is about 10" shorter than the instructions called for. I went ahead and built them with the provided hose, and I'm pretty sure it'll still work just fine. Tomorrow, I will mount the pump and connect the lines and run the wiring. After that, I'll be back to waiting on the rest of the parts to show up.
That's all for now.
The wobbling balancer ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back. I was already getting serious about the ECS kit, and Matt at FSP recommended a valve spring upgrade. Since I had to take the balancer off to change it, and needed to replace the valve springs, it seemed like the best time to do the cam as well. Already in there, and it makes more sense money wise to just do it all and tune it once.
The plan is, ECS Novi 1500, Stage 1 fuel system, ID850 injectors, Alky meth kit, Patrick G custom blower cam, BTR springs and pushrods, ARH 1 7/8" headers, 8 rib IW 10% od balancer with the ECS cogged flip kit.
I ordered everything except the cam and headers from Matt at FSP. He has been great to deal with and a big help with all the questions.
Patrick G spec'd the cam and Cam Motion ground it, verified the specs on their cam pro plus machine and shipped it out in less than a week. Patrick and Cam Motion have both also been great to deal with. Patrick will also be doing the tuning for this build.
My 14yo son helped me get started. We pulled the front end apart and replaced the cam and valve springs. No issues at all. Everything went smooth. Replacing the injectors, I noticed my new ID 850's were too short. They forgot to send the adapters. Matt overnighted them to me late Friday evening and I got them Saturday morning. That's customer service. Thanks Matt.
Next I put the headers in. They were mostly easy, but I did have to clearance the frame lip on the passenger side about 1/8" and remove the motor mount nut on the drivers side and lift up slightly to roll the engine so the passenger side header would go in. Even with the starter removed, it wouldn't quite go in. Overall, not too bad. Probably the hardest part was installing the o2 extensions. Took a while to get them routed the way I wanted so they wouldn't get burned.
I've been waiting for almost 5 weeks for the parts from ECS. I finally got the supercharger and stage 1 fuel system yesterday, but still no balancer, so I can't put the front end back together yet since I will need to pin the crank when the balancer gets here, so on to the fuel system.
Cussed the fuel pickup for a while. Finally got everything lined up where I could put the bolts in and discovered that the sending unit was .030" larger than the 1 3/4" hole I drilled with the supplied hole saw. Had to take everything back apart, enlarge the hole in the tank with a die grinder, and then fight the sending unit again to get it lined up. Finally got the sending unit buttoned up and moved to building the fuel lines. There are 2 lines you have to assemble yourself, and the length in the instructions for the pickup to fuel pump hose is longer than the hose provided. I assume something has changed and the instructions haven't been updated. If not, my hose is about 10" shorter than the instructions called for. I went ahead and built them with the provided hose, and I'm pretty sure it'll still work just fine. Tomorrow, I will mount the pump and connect the lines and run the wiring. After that, I'll be back to waiting on the rest of the parts to show up.
That's all for now.
06-28-2015, 08:47 AM
#37
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '15
Your thoughts on building a wife friendly fi c6?
5 weeks and counting? Geez. Guess I better get my fuel system order in soon to get it before the end of summer.
06-28-2015, 10:07 AM
#38
Le Mans Master
The ultimate setup for a wife approved setup is running 1 7/8" long tube headers, no cats, and the factory NPP exhaust. No cats is essential with forced induction because of the extreme heat built up in the exhaust during long pulls. If you do mostly 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile racing, it may not put your cats at risk, but I do so much 1/2 mile and 1 mile competitions, that it puts the cats at serious risk when you're talking 30 seconds of WOT running. A clogged or broken cat can trash an engine in short order.
I do not like the Magnaflow exhaust with long tubes, cam and no cats. It drones so badly and it is definitely not wife approved. As mentioned, the later year NPP exhaust works best blending quiet cruising, absolutely no drone and really awesome sounding WOT. If you go cam, you'll want to keep overlap low to keep the exhaust from stinking and to keep from sending a bunch of your boost out the exhaust.
I do not like the Magnaflow exhaust with long tubes, cam and no cats. It drones so badly and it is definitely not wife approved. As mentioned, the later year NPP exhaust works best blending quiet cruising, absolutely no drone and really awesome sounding WOT. If you go cam, you'll want to keep overlap low to keep the exhaust from stinking and to keep from sending a bunch of your boost out the exhaust.
This is the exact setup I run and with the NPP closed the car sounds almost as quiet as stock, with absolutely no drone. With it open... well.... you know... amazing. As far as cats go, after destroying first the stock ones with around 600rwhp, and then the ARH in a short time with around 750, I will never risk running cats again. As mentioned, blocks cats can cost you a motor.
Some personal experience on the BOV issue too. I was running the Vortech Mondo valve with filter and it could not be heard inside the car at all. I think it is the quietest choice out there. I changed that for a larger turbosmart (with the same filter) and it is much louder. For the moment I don't mind the noise but time will tell if I get sick of it.
If you want quiet all around.... go with the mentioned exhaust choice and the Mondo BOV....... It is always cheaper in the long run to learn from others experiences. It also pays huge to keep the wife happy.
06-28-2015, 11:08 AM
#39
Le Mans Master
enjoy the setup my wife loves driving both of our Vettes (C7 and blown C6 both manual)
ECS, meth, and it drives like a stocker. Enjoy the build!
I would recommend switching NPP to B&B Fusion. I did and it has a much meaner sound to it.
ECS, meth, and it drives like a stocker. Enjoy the build!
I would recommend switching NPP to B&B Fusion. I did and it has a much meaner sound to it.
06-28-2015, 11:31 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the help guys. The ECS kit already comes with the Tial bov, so I ordered mine with the qr. Hopefully it'll be quiet enough. If not. I may try to put a filter on it. Since the base is welded to the intercooler it won't be as easy to change it out.
I bought the headers with the non catted x-pipe. Didn't want to chance melting the cats down. I will try my Magnaflow first since it's already on the car, but will probably change out to the NPP later if I can find a reasonably priced setup. I just hate to ditch a $1500 dollar exhaust without at least hearing it so we'll see.
I bought the headers with the non catted x-pipe. Didn't want to chance melting the cats down. I will try my Magnaflow first since it's already on the car, but will probably change out to the NPP later if I can find a reasonably priced setup. I just hate to ditch a $1500 dollar exhaust without at least hearing it so we'll see.