imxz28

This is really a two part question.

1. I'm concerned with placement of the IAT if I break it out. There's lots of flow and turbulence in the intake. Most say put the IAT opposite the meth nozzle but at WOT and high RPM, will it even reach the IAT?

2. If you point the nozzle anywhere other than midway from left bank/right bank. I have to assume one bank will be favored for getting more meth. Specially considering the bend just prior to the throttle body.

I realize short of 8 injectors, there is no way to balance but we can at least try to atomize and balance left and right banks with nozzle direction. THOUGHTS?

schpenxel

If I were installing my meth system over again I'd center the nozzle on the bottom of the charge tube, maybe 10" before the throttle body. Top would be fine too.. I just think it being on the bottom would look better.

Currently my meth nozzle is on the driver side of the charge tube, a few inches before the throttle body. The IAT sensor is on the passenger side of the intake, obviously after the throttle body. This setup still DOES pick up temp changes when the meth is on, though not as drastically as I've seen on some setups where the meth is spraying right on the sensor.

Can't answer how well it is distributed to all cylinders. I suspect keeping the nozzle closer to the middle of the charge tube and a bit back from the throttle body will help with distribution. Of course that's just my guess.. I have no data to back it up.

TTZ06VETTE

If the meth atomizes correctly in the airflow I would think the distribution would be the same as when not spraying and dependent on the overall intake setup including charge pipe. If your spraying too much meth then I can see some not atomizing completely and leading to potential distribution inefficiency.

neverstop

i spoke to julio at alky control about this dynamic when i went to dual nozzle with M15 and he certainly said when you go to bigger amounts of methanol you want the nozzles as far away from the throttle body as possible and he recommended I put them right at the outlet of the intercooler, he also said running a bigger 4" tube between the intercooler and throttle body helps slow the air flow down and helps with that too.


both make sense to me and if it were me i'd certainly put the single or dual nozzle meth as far back from throttle body as practical. no downside i can think of as long as after the bov

I don't see having any issues with a single nozzle setup though and with single nozzle the methanol is providing only a tiny amount of the total fuel the car is consuming that any variation doesn't really matter. with dual nozzle and bigger tips I think it gets more important but even then lots of 1k whp guys run their nozzles right before the throttle bodies and do fine.

imxz28

Thanks guys for your input! I'm going to try to do as above. Will mount the nozzle centered on bottom a few inches from the MAF and put the IAT on top about 3-4 inches down stream of the nozzle. I expect to get as good temp drop as possible?

neverstop

I should add I'm speed density, of course never spray method through maf

Rkreigh

the more meth you run and at the higher boost pressures the distribution can indeed be a problem. Ask Mr. Le on his c6 with big cent blower and dual nozzle he has a haltech with 8 channel egt.

the temps were way different front to back on meth. as much as 300 deg variance in EGTs (which is significant). the solution was the ECS direct port meth system to even out the distribution. even without "playing with the pills" the variance came down to 50 deg which is much better and likely due to air flow variances in the intake system (just like a BB chevy!)

a few things come to mind. the LS is a "dry flow intake" with lots of sharp turns on the internals. meth has weight and tends to "carry back" in the intake at higher boost which makes the rear cyl run rich instead of lean (so it's not all bad, but some HP is left on the table)

good news is that meth is very forgiving and running rich doesn't really hurt the power too badly.

I'm going to talk to the ECS folks in person at carlisle this weekend and will report back.

SquatchMachining

I run twin 15gph nozzles in the charge pipe about as far from the throttle body as possible, near my intercooler connection... The more time you give for atomization the better. I have my IAT sensor tapped into the back of the intake manifold as well, putting it in the charge pipe itself gives you a very false reading of IAT's, being in the back of the intake it is at the very furthest point from the meth nozzles and should represent a much more true number.


As far as direct port meth goes. The idea of running a 3GPH nozzle in each runner is appealing, but I have serious concerns of weather that is enough distance or time for the methanol to properly change from a liquid to a gas, especially with the meth controller jacked all the way up. I just don't see that being enough time/distance to accomplish proper atomization without a liquid pooling in the intake or head.

neverstop

imo if one is getting to the point where this is an issue I'd think just moving to E98 or C16 or at least E85 and moving down to a single nozzle just for coolin or no methanol at all would be the way to go. If I ever spray my car with nitrous I think probably i'd prefer to just upgrade the fuel system to E85 and run a single smaller nozzle.

that's interesting color on the 300 degree differences between cylinders though, that is too much for sure and not good.

Rkreigh, do you recall how much whp approximately Mr. Le was at on his C6? I'm just curious at what point that became an issue. I'd think some of the aftermarket intakes that have less design compromise from needing to fit under the hood would have more even flow too.

DOUG @ ECS

Lee was making about 1000rwhp. With two 15's on max we noticed a big difference between the front of the engine and the rear because he also has an 8 cylinder EGT set up.
We went direct port over race fuel all the time because he street drives it a lot and did not want to be tied to it.
Between the direct port and a Haltech ECU we were able to individually tune each cylinder.

We now limit our twin nozzles to 10's. I hope that helps.

DOUG @ ECS

Just an FYI, we will not be at Carlisle this year, we are simply too busy to disrupt the shop for a week. Sorry!!

imxz28

What a freaking great idea! Being a composite intake, I doubt we need to worry about heat soak or any other anomalies. BTW, I figure most of you know I'm working with a C7 but posted here because the C7 forum didn't seem to want to discuss the subject.

That said, is there anything more to know about mounting the IAT at the back of the intake? I'll call Steve at LMR and see if he has any concerns as he will be tuning it.

neverstop

that is extremely helpful Doug. thanks.

does anyone know if Lee was running a stock intake manifold? i'd hope some of the aftermarket offerings with more height (ie: not fast) would have better distribution front/back.


lot of guys running twin 15 meth nozzles (like me) and probably not even aware of how hot some of the individual cylinders are running. the difference between 1300 and 1600 degree EGT is huge, especially if done for a standing mile or something.

the more I learn about this FI ls street cars the more I think E85 is the way to go.

DOUG @ ECS

He was using a stock intake, here is a pic of the direct port set up.

.

neverstop

thanks, that is super interesting and good info.

schpenxel

You can spray meth through the MAF if you're running speed density. Speed density doesn't use the MAF.

Some people continue to use the IAT in the MAF, spray through the MAF, then use speed density for the airflow calculations (i.e. not using the MAF)

imxz28

Talked to Steven at LMR (he's going to do my tune) and he suggested with 9psi, to just leave the IAT in the MAF. It's a better compromise to get a true pre meth reading than a false wet meth reading. He said he can tune just fine and my safety net is to monitor my meth indicator lights and rebuild the pump every 2 years.

On a similar side note, I was suspecting the IAT wouldn't see the meth on colder days anyway so where's the safety in that. Besides, on hot days, I trust the meth will work and no knock equals lots of timing equals lots of power.

Turbo-Geist

I'm curious why he stated that the IAT wouldn't see the meth on colder days. From a thermodynamic standpoint there is going to be heat transfer even in cooler weather.

schpenxel

I believe the point was he may end up below the "meth is on, add timing" IAT, even without meth, on a cold day.

Nitrous Express & Snow Performance

Direct port meth will keep all cylinders happy.
Pm me with any questions.


Intake for a C5 setup to connect to a alky control pump