Big power stock bottom end cars on E85 that are still alive?
#41
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
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Man, that's an interesting point. E10, when "contaminated with water", saturates at >0.5% water. Phase separation occurs at that point. Likely will blow an engine as the bottom layer is really low octane/water. Boaters - as I've said lots here, hate E10. E85 would require much more water to reach saturation, almost a bad thing in that it *can* hold a lot of water...i.e., no energy. Once source I checked claims ~15% water content prior to phase separation. Not sure how bad that would be, but I wouldn't wanna find out.
Sorry to digress..
Sorry to digress..
#42
Safety Car
#43
Drifting
Both would be expensive. MON is very expensive, i.e., requires a special engine to get numbers. RON cheaper (sometimes NIR testing can do it), but likely cost prohibitive for consumers (Refiners online analyzers for stream blending are NIR and very accurate).
Perhaps IF the content of E could be determined accurately, an estimate of AKI could be deduced (at least a minimum?). Not sure what "hydrocarbon" blending component they use to make E85, but I'd bet it's something such as hydrobate (low octane straight run naphtha i.e., cheap low value blending component). The E provides the octane, and the HC is only needed to make spec (RVP, etc). The E content of E85 can be much lower in colder climates...
This is making me more curious. It's interesting. Gosta learn more.
Perhaps IF the content of E could be determined accurately, an estimate of AKI could be deduced (at least a minimum?). Not sure what "hydrocarbon" blending component they use to make E85, but I'd bet it's something such as hydrobate (low octane straight run naphtha i.e., cheap low value blending component). The E provides the octane, and the HC is only needed to make spec (RVP, etc). The E content of E85 can be much lower in colder climates...
This is making me more curious. It's interesting. Gosta learn more.
no reason to be sorry, I think this is all relevant to the topic at hand... I'm no expert but from what I understand ethanol is very hygroscopic and who knows how long it sits in the tanks before someone pumps it out into their gas tank, add a humid climate to the situation and it will probably get worse... it might be ok for these daily driver flex fuel cars that are just trying to get to and from work but with a high hp car surely it can cause problems when making a wot pull and I agree with you, I'd rather not find out... in my opinion it's just too easy to test to not do it and this is something we can actually control to an extent, I am not aware of any way to easily test the octane rating of regular pump gas so there is no way to know if you get a bad batch until you start getting knock
#44
I've been waiting since 2011 for mine to break with over 750 whp. You know how many people's built motors I've seen die in that time? Quite a few them. My car has survived 5 TX2Ks with this setup.
The LS2/3 have way stronger rods than my LS6...and the pistons on these motors are a lot stronger than the internet would make you believe. As long as you don't get any detonation they can hold a ton of power.
The LS2/3 have way stronger rods than my LS6...and the pistons on these motors are a lot stronger than the internet would make you believe. As long as you don't get any detonation they can hold a ton of power.
It isn't all in the tune either. The LS3 block starts to distort above 800 or so which leads to issues as well. You will always have guys who have engines last better then most. I have a customer with a stock long block LS2 and a cam that has been running a max effort D1 setup for years racing all the time and hasn't hurt it yet. That is more of an exception then the norm though.
Last edited by lt1z; 07-21-2017 at 11:01 AM.
#45
Now I dont know much about the tuning software support (yet) for GM vehicles, but the advantages of running flex fuel are obvious. I dont understand why someone would bother upgrading their fuel system for E85 and not go flex.
#46
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St. Jude Donor '15
It takes talent to screw up an E85 tune so bad that it blows a motor, but I shouldn't be surprised that it happens all the time
#48
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St. Jude Donor '15
True... no clue though. I guess it'd be pretty dependent on what that other 50% actually is.. I'm not sure what they blend in with E50'ish. Local pumps here are consistently right at E80 so I haven't really researched it much
Last edited by schpenxel; 07-22-2017 at 05:49 PM.
#49
Drifting
I don't know much about E85, trying to learn more. It's confusing, need a law degree almost.
The HC (hydrocarbon) added to E85 is always going to be a crappy, straight-run low octane hydrobate with an appropriate VP (vapor pressure - measurement of volatility) for the region the fuel is headed. Warmer climates can get by with a lower the VP for starting engine. Colder/winter blends require a higher VP for engine starting. Brazil uses almost pure E due to their climate.
They also talk much about "octane giveaway", so E85 definitely won't be using a higher octane product like a reformed component (reformate) or an alkylate. Those are high value blending components reserved to boost HC octane blend pools that need higher octane (not E85).
It also appears that the US 49 states (Non-CA), CA and Europe are all using different specs. If everyone was to follow ASTM D5798-09b, then the E content is guaranteed to be a min of 70%. It would range from 70-79% minimum. A benefit I would assume for tuners, as the fuel octane/mixture would be more predictable?
But the following snips make this confusing. One says US E85 blends allow the E content to drop to a 51% minimum, while ASTM D5798-09b (which is cited often) keeps the E range from 70-79%. That would be better for tuning, as it dictates a minimum octane and HC content. That would at least allow a MIN octane based on the 70% E.
And one cite refers to CA having - or planning to create their own E85 specs!
Point is, the HC blended to any E85 is NOT a octane quality product. It will be an extremely low value un-reformed hydrobate/pentane straight run product. Those are normally about 60 octane, or less.
Unreal also talks about AZ changing their specs allowing the E content to drop to 40% E.
The HC (hydrocarbon) added to E85 is always going to be a crappy, straight-run low octane hydrobate with an appropriate VP (vapor pressure - measurement of volatility) for the region the fuel is headed. Warmer climates can get by with a lower the VP for starting engine. Colder/winter blends require a higher VP for engine starting. Brazil uses almost pure E due to their climate.
They also talk much about "octane giveaway", so E85 definitely won't be using a higher octane product like a reformed component (reformate) or an alkylate. Those are high value blending components reserved to boost HC octane blend pools that need higher octane (not E85).
It also appears that the US 49 states (Non-CA), CA and Europe are all using different specs. If everyone was to follow ASTM D5798-09b, then the E content is guaranteed to be a min of 70%. It would range from 70-79% minimum. A benefit I would assume for tuners, as the fuel octane/mixture would be more predictable?
But the following snips make this confusing. One says US E85 blends allow the E content to drop to a 51% minimum, while ASTM D5798-09b (which is cited often) keeps the E range from 70-79%. That would be better for tuning, as it dictates a minimum octane and HC content. That would at least allow a MIN octane based on the 70% E.
And one cite refers to CA having - or planning to create their own E85 specs!
Point is, the HC blended to any E85 is NOT a octane quality product. It will be an extremely low value un-reformed hydrobate/pentane straight run product. Those are normally about 60 octane, or less.
Unreal also talks about AZ changing their specs allowing the E content to drop to 40% E.