I say NA to boost

Howdy folks,
I have a 2009 C6 Z51 M6. Current power mods are a TSP Stage 4 (235/248, .649/.615 111LSA), TSP longtubes and offload x, K&N CAI. It made 500/460.
The cam is huge, the power is great, but the more I drive it, the more I think its not enough power... Mainly my struggle is I can't quite hang with the really fast cars. ZR1's, modded Z06's, one red blown C5...

I know its sort of ironic, after all, my name is "I say NA to boost", given I choose that name when I was younger and not necessarily wiser. But now I sit here torn over whether I should get a blower.

If I decide I can't live without one, I've done a little searching. In my research I've found the blower I think would fit me best would be a V3 T-trim. I like the idea of a self contained oil system.

So heres what I have for Y'all...


Who has a blower? Whats your ownership experience.

What are the downsides you've found?

What kit are you running?

Anyone that has installed them; how was it, any tricks?

Pics / Dyno charts; if you want to show off....



Thanks guys, have a great day!

CI GS

First you need to change your CF moniker to “I say Ya to boost”.
Then give ECS or A&A a call and see what they recommend, based on your expectations, and then pull the trigger.
Then, the only question will be, do I need a “blower cam”?

P.S. I would recommend that you search these forums and then ask any specific questions about each kind. That way, you will get tons of the kind of info you are looking for, whilst mitigating the chances of starting a WWIII-sized pissing contest over which blower is “best” and all the reasons why.

I say NA to boost

1. Possibly true...
2. Right...
3. I really hope not, but thats what im really trying to gauge, specifically if I could find someone who has a TSP stage 4 with a blower.

CI GS

That is a bigass cam. It at least is going to be a challenge to tune that on boost. I would say change it to a Pat G custom grind with like 230ish/240ish duration and 115LSA, and enjoy better mileage, manners, and still have way more power than before.

(BTW; full disclosure: I’m hoping to steer this thread into a blower cam discussion before the all the hardcore FI guys jump on here with the usual vitriol and propaganda about heat sinks and belt problems, etc. that “the other guys” suffer with their junk blowers)

I say NA to boost

So here is the spec for a TSP stage 3 blower cam
Cam Specs: 231/239, .640"/.629", 115 LSA, 112 ICL
Here is my cam spec currently (TSP Stage 4 NA)
Cam Specs: 235/248, .649/.615 111 LSA

Im not a cam expert, so if anyone on here is, please chime in.
But my current cam and the blower cam have a decently similar split on stroke and simile split on duration. Only major difference is the LSA, and the face that ICL is noted on the blower cam. What is the major difference between a blower cam and an NA cam, design-wise?

CI GS

I’m no cam expert, but from what I know about such things, you want to keep overlap to a minimum with a blower cam, so where you have a cam with more intake and exhaust duration, cam designers tend to open up the LSA, to mitigate overlap. The 112ICL indicates that the cam is ground with 3 degrees of advance in it, typically this is to gain some low end torque.
Your cam will work, but it’s not optimum for a blower setup. The other thing to look out for too is lots of lift and the steep lobe ramps that come with them. They tend to kill springs and lifters fairly quick. I’ve always noticed that the bigger TSP cams have a lot of lift on the intake, like yours does, and they make good power, which is fine if you’re building a weekend warrior that spends most of its time on the drag strip. Not so much for a daily driver.
If your balancer is pinned already (?) and you don’t have to pull the frontend of the motor down for the blower install, I would probably give the current cam a try. If you have to pull the steering rack, I would pull the balancer and timing cover and change the cam the same time.

I say NA to boost

I am pinned, so it'd be a pretty easy install if I can talk myself into the blower. My car is not daily driven, really just for weekend and street use.
Thanks for your input, its been very helpful. We'll see if I can talk my wallet into it. What downsides are there to being supercharged?

Tech

You still make more power with more overlap. The rub is.. blower cars can reach the power potential of your engine/fuel (plus meth and/or E85) with a much smaller cam. You'll get better driving characteristics and fuel economy.

Patriot Six

You will enjoy the car a lot more with the smaller cam and blower. The driveability will be much better and you’ll make more power. I make 800+whp on a smaller cam than the TSP Stage 3 with a Ti trim.

Unreal

Agreed on swap to smaller cam if possible.

ECS or A&A kit, fuel system, flex fuel or meth and enjoy a fun car. If installed correctly almost no issues. If you want to daily it in the summer then cooling upgrades will need to be done.

rkymtnscaper

I had an A&A kit installed this spring, car definitely demands respect now as very traction limited in first and second gear. Main down side is heat, stop and go traffic with the AC is a no no, temps stay fine when moving. Will have to work on temp issue over the winter.

DOUG @ ECS

I have tuned a few cars over the years with cam's your size that went supercharging afterwards. For one they are difficult to tune, and a little more finicky then when it was N/A with the cam. It is possible and they do make good HP numbers with very little boost numbers due to the overlap, but I would suggest swapping your cam.

Mike Mullett

Not looking to hi jack your thread on my 1st post lol but is the stock cam in a ls3 boost friendly?

Detoxx03

Boost and don’t look back

Petraszewsky

From my understanding there are advantages to having some overlap with a blower cam. A little overlap let's some fresh air cool the chamber/piston/exhaust valve some preventing detonation. No need for large overlaps though.

jashmore1234

This. I run a D1SC at 6lbs through an automatic. I think I put down 540HP on a safe tune. I daily drove it for 20,000 miles with no issues. Drives like a normal ride until you stick ylu foot in it.

CI GS

Interesting discussion on FI cam specs on here. It is true to some extent that a cam that makes great power in an N/A will still make even greater power with boost. There’s a very interesting post on a forum somewhere out there by Tony Mamo who says that folks make the same mistake with heads, in that, it’s wrong to say that there’s no need to go to a better flowing head with boost, because you can just turn up the boost. He points out that inasmuch as a CNC ported head will gain power in an N/A application, so too will it gain more in a supercharged application, because boost is simply just artificially increasing intake tract pressure above atmospheric pressure. In fact, as he points out, with a CNC ported LS3 Head, you can gain power whilst at the same time reducing boost, which, after all, is a measurement of restriction. But, as with everything, there are other things to consider here. A cam (or engine) that is designed to work with a stock LS3 Head at atmospheric pressure needs relatively more overlap to help scavenge the cylinder, which, beyond a certain point, comes at the expense of overlap and reversion in the intake tract, whereas a boosted engine doesn’t need as much, or any, overlap (bear in mind that overlap is typically measured at 0.05” lift, so depending on the cam lobe and valve/seat design, you could have actual overlap earlier), so you can go smaller on the duration and wider on LSA, because it’s not necessary to generate as much of a scavenging effect. So, in a nutshell, it’s more a matter if not needing an unnecessary side-effect (overlap) than it is that the big-dick-daddy cam “won’t work” in a blower motor.
But there’s no need for all this “mental masturbation”, because there’s enough competent, reputable folks (some have already posted on here) who have done this before that know with some exactitude what works and what doesn’t with these motors.
And a really big part of it is whether you want to drive the car on the street under normal conditions at least some of the time, or just use it for weekend trips to the track, at the end of the day it’s what you want out of it. That’s why I suggested Pat G. You can also just use one of ECS’ blower cams or BTR - any of the reputable companies knows what works.
BUT, if you’re happy with the way the car runs now with that big cam in it, and your balancer is already pinned (so you don’t have to mess with the steering rack, etc.), and since you’re gonna do the blower install yourself, I would be lying to you if I told you I wouldn’t be tempted to just throw the blower kit on and try it.

Unreal

you have to take into account cost when talking mods. The argument against heads is $2000+ for 25-30hp vs $90 for a pulley. That is why most say skip heads as a power upgrade. It would be like arguing a better vs a 720s without talking price.

huge advantage of fi is how nice it drives idles and mpg. Running a huge cam with blower takes all that away. My little 230 cam makes 1100+ with ease and drives better than any na calmed car I've been in.

CI GS

Agreed on all points. I guess the point I was trying to make in my rambling post was that there is always more than one way to get to certain power level, and most of the time the easier way has a consequence or unwanted side effect. IMV, camshaft selection is one of the most critical things for a performance car that sees regular street use, with THE most critical thing being the tuner. Because an orchestra is just a bunch of musicians without a maestro... not that I’m into that kind of thing, mind you.

EvanZR1

You're biggest problem is where you live. Texas (Dallas & Houston especially) is lousy with high HP cars. I'm at 700RW and I'm at best mid-pack for many of the cars running around Dallas. In our Collin County group there's 2-3 ZR1s, a blown Z06 and blown C7 that will easily walk all over me. Then there's several of us with blown Grand Sports making 700-800RW, and several NA cars running around +/- 600RWHP.

You need to ask yourself what you want, because if it's to keep up with the fastest cars in Dallas, you're going to need well over 1K wheel HP, which is a whole different level than 700-800RW, which is what I think is the limit for streetable/reliable. If you just want to be a little faster, you can do 700-800RW all day long and be reliable on an LS3. I'm at 700RW with a stock LS3 (just changed springs to be safe) and LS7 exhaust manifolds (no cam, no heads, no LTs). That's with a little V3 Si kit running maxed out on a 3.4" pulley and dual nozzle 100% meth. Still running stock fuel pump with just a BAP. Car is super reliable and drives literally like stock, but shocks many people with how fast it is. If you want go T trim with LTs and cam, you should easily be able to get to low to mid 700s, but much more than that and you're probably going to max out the stock fuel pump. Plus at anything over about 600RW traction really starts becoming an issue. At 700RW I'm running 1" taller PZero Corsas (R compound, the 1" taller reduces effective gear ratio a little), but at anything under 75 degrees and more than 1/2 throttle 1st AND 2nd gear are pretty much useless. Forget running street tires (even Michelin SuperSports or other high end tires), you won't be able to hook in 1st, 2nd and often even 3rd (trust me spinning at the top of 3rd at WOT is not as fun as it sounds). Most of those other high HP cars in our group are running either NT05R, R888R, E/T Street SS or some other super sticky compound that really can only be driven on a dry weather car (so keep that in mind if you daily your car), and again all of them are traction limited in lower gears.