640rwhp on pump gas no F\I...???
05-28-2018, 07:20 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
640rwhp on pump gas no F\I...???
Cartek heads, cam and bolt ons dyno numbers on 2009 Z06
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#1
tekhombre , 05-26-2018 01:19 AM
Mod list:
Cartek ported OEM LS7 heads with bronze guides
Cartek 4X cam
Kooks 2" headers and X with HF cats
FAST 102 with Stock TB
Corsa exhaust
Halltech CAI
160 stat
Katech red oil pump
McLeod RXT clutch with steel flywheel
Fuel:
93 pump
05-28-2018, 07:36 PM
#3
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
This has been up in the ZO6/ZR1 thread and I haven’t seen any of the well known/established F/I cats chime in on this....(DeTOXX/unreal/stangkilla....) or any of the other well known shops(Vengeance/Katech/AHP/any of th e Texas speed shops) I’m fairly new and doing my best to learn I’m just confused as to if this is legit and possible what’s the point of F/I if these guys are putting down F/I numbers at what would appear to be a fraction of the cost? I’m not making a judgment about this shops work cause I just don’t know enough to make or have a respectable opinion. A lot of you guys do though and I’m curious of your thoughts. Is this legit? Can dyno numbers be fabricated that easy? Do the numbers even matter if the track/strip numbers don’t match? I’ve still got work to do on my Z before it’s “tuned on kill” (heads/cooling/tires) but these guys are advertising pretty close numbers to a cammed/headers/exhaust/intake/P1 blower or equivalent (vortech/Paxton....) LS7 has been around awhile and I was told it’s pretty damn hard to crack 600rwhp N/A on pump with a stock top and bottom. So what’s the deal? Are these guys the dopest LS7 tuners on the planet? Or are games being played?
05-28-2018, 07:47 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
A dyno is just a tuning tool. I've heard it's easy to manipulate numbers but I've never operated a dyno so I can not tell you that's true.
For the most part, a TRUE 600whp z06 will run side by side with a 700whp blower car. It's all about the powerband.
Building a powerful N/A setup is not cheap and you'll sacrifice drivability. You'll also hit a ceiling where it'll take thousands of dollars to extract another 5whp.
It depends on what you want to do.
For the most part, a TRUE 600whp z06 will run side by side with a 700whp blower car. It's all about the powerband.
Building a powerful N/A setup is not cheap and you'll sacrifice drivability. You'll also hit a ceiling where it'll take thousands of dollars to extract another 5whp.
It depends on what you want to do.
05-28-2018, 08:56 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Ok so when I get my AHP heads from Khole in a few weeks(already hashed out whats best for my set up) moldstar90, dual 1511 springs, hollow stem valves, street port, resurface only no mil, yella terra ultralite I might be forgetting something but basically every option on the package 4 plus the roller rockers, my current cam is a comp 115 LSA 660/660 lift( pretty sure the lift is why Khole recommended the roller rockers) I’ll have a H/C/ headers(kooks) no cats NPP mod 850 injectors TR6 plugs/wires 3 bar MAP and a P1-SC-1. Not messing with the stock intake and throttle body. So I’ll have pretty much what these N/A builds have plus the blower. So how would a 600rwhp N/A car run with this set up? Do the fast/MSD throttle body upgrades make that much of a difference? Is the cam these guys are using that much bigger? I was told my current cam is solid for a blower set up, I’m just confused at how if legit these N/A cars are making that much power when I’ll have basically the same set up plus a blower.
05-28-2018, 09:23 PM
#6
Drifting
Yes, you can make those power numbers N/A, but the driveability will be much better with a blower car because you can run a milder cam and make more power via boost. Stock intake and TB are best for boost. I would go right to a D1/X, Ti trim, or 1500 with an LS7.
05-28-2018, 10:14 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Correction on the cam lift it’s .617 intake .623 exhaust Was just looking over the cam spec sheet again. Not sure where I got the .660/.660 from. I bought the car with the mods already on it, got a really good deal and it only has 14k miles on the car and 4k on the motor with the mods. I don’t plan on changing the head unit out. I’m just looking to do the mods/set up for what I have. It’s not a daily and never will be, but I’d like to do everything I can within reason to make it a solid build that’s fast but not on the verge of going nuclear. I understand that’s a fine line with a blown LS7 though.
05-28-2018, 10:22 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I was really just curious as to what the F/I guys thought about those numbers, lots of back and forth on the original thread about it’s legit/it’s BS and so on. Didn’t really see any of the well known guys or builders chime in on the thread so I thought I’d put it up here for some discussion. I enjoy reading the options of different people on here and it usually leads me down a long rabbit hole of googling how different mods set ups work and why. So thanks for your comments and input in advance!
05-28-2018, 10:22 PM
#9
Drifting
I completely understand not going nuclear. Those lift numbers are better for your setup. A P1 with meth and proper tune should be just fine, if you don’t drive like a lunatic everywhere you go. Good luck with the build.
05-28-2018, 11:28 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Well considering I’m still getting a feel for a 600+ rwhp car(prior owner dyno sheet Mustang 640rwp/580tq) and still on factory heads and the shitty runflats I don’t even have the ability and haven’t really tried to drive it close to its potential. No track/no new dyno pulls till the heads are done. I am glad I waited till I was 36 to buy one cause a younger me would be dead/jail/totaled car or any combination of the three lol
05-29-2018, 04:45 AM
#11
Safety Car
I’d say those are a little high but very possible to achieve. I prefer boosted setups vs max effort n/a builds.
05-29-2018, 06:32 AM
#12
Former Vendor
Is it possible? Yes. We made similar numbers (627/536) on our dyno with a SBE LS7, MILD LLSR camshaft, All Pro 12-1 heads, and full bolt-ons through the stock clutch on 93 not so long ago. It's all in the combination. That being said, like others have mentioned the dyno is a tuning tool and at the end of the day, what it traps and how drivability is would be the ultimate testament as to whether or not it's a good setup when comparing to going forced induction.
05-29-2018, 08:28 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
Correction on the cam lift it’s .617 intake .623 exhaust Was just looking over the cam spec sheet again. Not sure where I got the .660/.660 from. I bought the car with the mods already on it, got a really good deal and it only has 14k miles on the car and 4k on the motor with the mods. I don’t plan on changing the head unit out. I’m just looking to do the mods/set up for what I have. It’s not a daily and never will be, but I’d like to do everything I can within reason to make it a solid build that’s fast but not on the verge of going nuclear. I understand that’s a fine line with a blown LS7 though.
The difference between a 600whp N/A car and blower car is the powerband. Starting at the same RPM, an N/A car is in the meat of its power where a blower car has to build into it and by that time, there's no way to catch up. Hence why you'll need more power to catch up or even stay even on the hit and then pull away as the run goes on. Weight is another factor. Blower setups add another ~80-100lbs of weight to the car all other things equal.
05-29-2018, 08:58 AM
#14
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Those lift numbers are from the comp cam spec sheet I have, I don’t see on the spec sheet where it says 1.8 ratio though so if there is a way for me to specifically identify the ration please let me know, @detoxx and @ vengeance thanks for taking the time to comment much appreciated!
05-29-2018, 09:29 AM
#15
Le Mans Master
Those lift numbers are from the comp cam spec sheet I have, I don’t see on the spec sheet where it says 1.8 ratio though so if there is a way for me to specifically identify the ration please let me know, @detoxx and @ vengeance thanks for taking the time to comment much appreciated!
You'll probably need a stronger spring to run those yella terra rockers as well. ( i happen to have a set for sale)
Last edited by jayyyw; 05-29-2018 at 09:30 AM.
05-29-2018, 09:34 AM
#16
Team Owner
Hell 600+ with basic parts is not hard, and has been done for years. The first 2 z06s I built ~8 years ago made 580rwhp and 585rwhp and that was what today would be considered a small cam, untouched fast intake, stock TB, UNTOUCHED heads, motor never cracked. So if these days you can't hit numbers like these with an aggressive setup, the good head work you can get these days, and the newer parts, something is amiss.
Hell look at all the RPM b3 combos with AI heads that consistently do ~625-630rwhp with a smaller cam. Plus they don't need ported MSD/etc etc to get there. They use some really good heads, a well spec'd cam for the setup, and a great tune.
As for the power band thing, all the blower cars I've done and tuned make more power everywhere. They take a weight hit. I don't for one second buy a 700rwhp blower car is equal to a 600rwhp n/a car unless we are talking glory number pulls which is what you typically see, but I wouldn't say that is a 700rwhp blower car. Blower cars are far more sensitive to heat. The intercooler, even air to air and the system gets soaked. So what you see is most places letting the car cool, making a glory pass to hit 700rwhp/etc, but in reality, after driving 30 minutes, and making a few pulls the car is actually only making ~600-620rwhp, which is why the N/A cars are about equal, because in the real world, on street they are making about equal power. If you want to see how your car compares to a n/a car, drive it for an hour plus, strap it on, shut hood, get everything nice and hot, and make a pull. Other than that, it is just the ~80lbs up front.
As others said, blower cars drive MUCH MUCH nicer. My 1100+rwhp car drives nicer than almost any 580rwhp+ n/a car. I can lug it around at 800rpm, cruise in 6th gear at 40mph, don't have to mess with clutch, get stock like gas mileage as opposed to losing 3-5mpg. With the blower if you want another 30-40rwhp it is just a matter of having the fuel/octane and supporting mods to support adding some boost, where with a n/a car, you can spend $5000 just to get another 15rwhp.
You also said n/a is a lot cheaper, and that is pretty much a myth too. If you compare a $5000 ECS kit to what it takes to max out a n/a build, the cost is similar. N/A you need to make sure you have awesome high end headers ($1000), top end head work (+1000) , ported MSD ($1200), good intake system ($400), TB ($500), etc etc etc. You easily hit what it would take to throw a blower on. With a blower, you can run some cheap $800 headers, throw some new guides and solid valves in the heads, run bone stock TB and bone stock intake, don't need an airfilter setup, and enjoy 650rwhp all day long.
Last edited by Unreal; 05-29-2018 at 09:44 AM.
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mourat (05-29-2018)
05-29-2018, 11:15 AM
#17
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
My bad on the price comparison I just looked at the list from that N/A build and assumed it would be cheaper than a blower system. Thanks for your input as well. Again my reason for putting this up in the F/I section was to get opinions and real world experience from you guys. I’m trying to get up to speed at least on a basic level of the LS7 blowers and tune so I don’t feel like such an idiot when going over this stuff with my current mechanic/tuner. Unfortunately in my current location I only have the choice of one tuner/shop in my area and I don’t like not having any other options. The heads are getting done in June and I’m trying to make sure the work is done correctly and I’m getting the right work done for my needs. ***** been a little stressful and this forum is about the only place I have to try understand what’s getting done to the motor and why and if I’m getting good work/info/advice/tune from the guys I’m using. At the moment whatever I’m get told by the shop I’m using I basically have to take their word on it because I have no clue if it’s good or BS.
05-29-2018, 11:31 AM
#18
Le Mans Master
As for the power band thing, all the blower cars I've done and tuned make more power everywhere. They take a weight hit. I don't for one second buy a 700rwhp blower car is equal to a 600rwhp n/a car unless we are talking glory number pulls which is what you typically see, but I wouldn't say that is a 700rwhp blower car. Blower cars are far more sensitive to heat. The intercooler, even air to air and the system gets soaked. So what you see is most places letting the car cool, making a glory pass to hit 700rwhp/etc, but in reality, after driving 30 minutes, and making a few pulls the car is actually only making ~600-620rwhp, which is why the N/A cars are about equal, because in the real world, on street they are making about equal power. If you want to see how your car compares to a n/a car, drive it for an hour plus, strap it on, shut hood, get everything nice and hot, and make a pull. Other than that, it is just the ~80lbs up front.
05-29-2018, 01:07 PM
#19
Team Owner
It isn't the power band, and the weight is minimal, it is the fact that a 700rwhp blower car probably makes 600rwhp on the street once it is hot, and not a glory pull on the dyno. Also why you see blower cars running damn good at the track, when they can cool down between runs/etc.
05-29-2018, 01:33 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
The heat issue was a major issue I didn’t understand with F/I, learned a lot from you guys the prospeed unit is going in soon, I was also thinking about a better tunnel shield to try and keep heat out of the inside, have you guys had good luck with those? Any specific recommendations? I also had a question about the digital read out of coolant temp compared to the gauge. I don’t have my dashlogic configured how I want it at the moment so it’s not telling me coolant, so I turned it off and used the factory read out on the digital display and it was reading between 8-12 degrees lower than the gauge. For example if the gauge was saying 210 the digital read out was at 198. Monitored this for about an hour and was pretty consistent the two didn’t match. With no AC and 92 degree temps I never saw the digital read out go over 217 and the gauge was consistently 8-12 degrees higher. Also any suggestions on protecting the starter from heat soak? 30 min of driving in 90+ if I turn off I have slow crank constantly, no issue on cold start and it’s has always started just real slow. I’ve seem DEI makes a heat shield just wondering how effective it is or should I go with a lose fitting heat shield on the headers where they come close to the starter? I’ve seen some designs where it’s a piece of insulated material that wraps lowly around the headers and secures with what looks like a metal/aluminum zip tie. Just wanting to spend money on the right **** that works.