BlindSpot

I've decided to go FI on my stock 09 base Z51. I just purchased an A&A kit and chose the V3 Si-Trim. I'm just looking for a modest street HP improvement, will probably never be at a dragstrip or track and no intentions to build the motor any further (550 to 650 hp range max).

I'm a hopeless DIYer with lots of experience and a well equipped shop/garage. The mechanical install is no challenge. My desire is to learn to do the tune. The car is a complete toy and not needed for transportation. The kit will sit in the garage until I either am able to tune it from scratch or look for a startup tune solution then improve on it as I learn the ropes. I've installed canned NA tunes, I have a DS 2030 and a Tech 2. I'll purchase whatever I need to do the tune, probably HPTuners BC of the "community" there. So my questions and where I need help:

1. Anyone have any creative ideas about a startup tune that I can use/purchase somewhere and load to get a jump start? Something that will load on the 2030 maybe? I don't want to pull the PCM and send it out.
2. Am I on the right track with HPTuners to gain tune knowledge? Any other suggestions or options?

Thanks everyone.

jim2092

Contact A&A in LA for a tune. They may have access to a 2030. If not get it in HP Tuner format. Many guys up there use that format and can load it for $100 credit cost. If not, my tuning partner and I will be up there soon. We use HP Tuner software.

BlindSpot

Yes, checked directly with A&A. They want the pcm which I was hoping not to do. Before I purchased, I looked too at ECS. They use EFiLive, but also wanted the PCM to load a startup tune. This would be my last resort.

The A&A kit hasn't even been delivered yet. Won't see it until a couple of weeks given delivery. Yes, I'd like to know when you're coming up. Timing might be off, but at least touch base.

A startup tune I can load would be ideal. That way I can install and run, then fine tune as I learn it. BTW, I'm only into the tune as a hobby. I'm not looking to go into business tuning.

jim2092

Learning to tune on a supercharged engine is not ideal. If you want to install your own supercharger and then buy and use tuning software on it, it will require that you learn how to load tunes and exchange log files via the internet with the tuner of your choice. This will begin the process of your learning to tune.

Contact me via email for further info.

schpenxel

You can either leave factory injectors in and start it up on the original tune or just update some basic stuff (i.e. injector data) and try to get it to start on that. Once it's running you can start making adjustments from there.

This is NOT something you need to or should pay for.

Once you have HPTuners, make a post on the HPT forum with a copy of the tune and mods and I or someone else will get you going in the right direction.

And you will need a wideband also.

Obviously don't go wide open right off the bat with a factory'ish tune unless you like breaking things

BlindSpot

Thanks.

I've been spending lots of time now on HPTuners. Going to join up there once I can ask questions that aren't stupid. I've also looked into some training courses for HPT. I have a Mechanical Engineering background and do understand most if not all of the principles behind NA engine management. I more need to learn/use the SW and the important adjustments on the FI side. I'm guessing fuel cells need to be modified as well as timing. I see conversation about SD and MAF tuning.

Another thought I had was to work first on the HPT and experiment on the NA side of my car before mounting the SC. Then I will at least have that part down. What do you think?

I've looked into a wideband based on your earlier recommendation. From what I've seen on HP, looks like a huge and helpful community. I've also followed some of your posts there.

Thanks again.

schpenxel

That is what I did, actually... I got HPT, started learning about tuning, then did a SC a few months later. If you're going to buy HPT and do it yourself I figure you might as well go ahead.

HPTuners software is free to download by the way. With that then you can start looking at logs and tunes that other people post on the forum if you want to at least start seeing what people are doing. Might help.. might not, not sure.

Greg Banish has some pretty good books that aren't that expensive.

I can explain more later if you have any particular questions.

BlindSpot

Thanks - Are you talking about the VCM demo SW free download, or something else? It would be helpful. I am already wanting to view some of the tune files in the threads I've been reviewing. I am getting ready to register at HP too. Thanks!

What do you recommend as far as the suite goes? Pro? Or can I get one job done w/o the Pro? If I can save on the suite, I can apply that towards the wideband.

schpenxel

Yes, the demo is the real software.. no difference. It just can't save files without having an interface and all the keys, etc that comes with one. You can view tunes/logs though no problem.

The second question has gotten more complicated. If you had asked me 3 months ago I would say pro without a doubt. The main thing people use it for is logging a reading from a wideband alongside stuff from the car. You can't do that with the basic interface. BUT, AEM released a new wideband not long ago that connects to the OBD port and feeds data to HPT that way instead, meaning you don't really need the pro version's external inputs anymore.

I'd still lean you towards the pro if the extra $150 isn't a big deal though. It's about $250 to upgrade later and if you ever want to log something like fuel pressure you'll need it (or if you buy any wideband except the new one from AEM, 30-0333 is the model #)

BlindSpot

An update.

I am waiting for delivery of the A&A kit, V3 Si Trim. I chose this trim, first, BC I am looking for a tame reliable street HP gain. The rest of the motor will remain stock. I'll run the boost in the range of 6 lbs. Second, it should provide an easier platform to learn the tune.

Through the advice of you guys, especially schpenxel, I believe I am on the right course. Before I'll do any kit install, I want to reach a level of confidence that I can do the tune and not destroy anything.

I am still in the research/reading stage, but I am taking advice and moving onto HPTuner's platform. Haven't done it yet. As part of my research, I've ordered a book by Banish, recommended by Schpenxel. Secondly, I've put my Diablosport 2030 to work and I've done numerous datalogs in stock NA form. I'm reading these logs and drawing correlation to metrics I believe will be important to performance tune in FI. I am studying - RPM related to -
Coolant Temps
ST/LT FTs both banks
Spark advance
IAT
MAF in both flow and frequency
knock retard in deg
Total knock spark retard deg
Absolute Throttle Pos.

I've developed a plan, keeping in mind I am at the "freshman" level and might be naive thinking. I'm going down this path. Please offer any advice or acknowledgment I am on the right/wrong path.
1. First step continue to read/research (theory) before I actually touch anything
2. Move onto HPT, learn SW, research tunes available on HPT site. At this point I'll probably be letting go of my DS 2030, unmarry it and put it for sale.
3. First try to manipulate my factory NA tune with HPT. I want to make some low level changes observe the real life impacts, then I have a theoretical plan that I'd ask for input.
4. I want to install the FI kit and set it to the lowest boost it can handle, then begin the tune, hopefully on an almost anemic SC.
5. As I start to understand the impact of various changes in the tune, begin to increase the boost. Keep in mind, finish for me is probably 6 to 8 psi on an otherwise stock motor.

Here are some early assumptions that I'd like experts to weigh in.
1. As I understand SD vs MAF tuning, I want to do MAF. I understand MAF is tweeky and takes a lot of time, which I have.
2. If my assumption is correct about starting with a very low boost, then I am guessing I can start with the stock Fuel injectors to start a tune before I need to move to larger boost and larger injectors that come with the kit?
3. I am guessing I first need to get the AFR fuel cells set along with the maf volume, and either right behind it or along side it, the spark advance (The spark advance is still a black hole as I know when I am boosting I am increasing cylinder pressures). My gut tells me timing is retarded (less advance) compared to my baseline NA logs.
4. I've watched knock sensors pull 3 to 5 degrees of timing on my stock NA baseline at WOT. I cannot read AFRs with my DS so that's still a black hole until I get on HPT.

ANY COMMENTS, DIRECTION ADJUSTMENTS OR ADVICE IS WELCOME, as long as you don't tell me to forget it and take up knitting instead.
Thanks all!

schpenxel

MAF only tunes are considered "easier" as MAF tables are fairly small. SD tunes require making adjustments to the VE table which is huge, 1000 cells or so roughly. MAF is < 100. On cam'd cars SD tunes typically drive a lot better. Lazy tuners typically do MAF only.

The issue with MAF only is all of the injector data has to be very accurate or you'll never get consistent results. Factory injectors and injector dynamics injectors are about the only ones that I know of with data that is accurate. I believe the Greg Banish book talks a lot about this. For better or worse, injector characterization is a lot more complicated than just their flow rate.

AFR wise.. the factory computer can't read actual AFR. It's a limitation of the O2 sensors GM uses, so switching to HPT in and of itself won't help you there. You'll need a wideband O2 sensor setup to read AFR.

You can do some tuning with your factory injectors once the SC is on up to a point. Just keep an eye on injector duty cycle.

If you keep things rich, boost low and timing low, you should be fine.

Oh, and 3-5* of knock is not something you want to see with a supercharger on there. What octane gas are you running now?

"Total knock retard" includes burst knock retard which isn't real knock. Just straight "knock retard" is the one you want to keep an eye on moreso

BlindSpot

Thanks!

I'll be baby stepping this entire process, so I won't actually touch a tune even in my NA until I am far more sure of my knowledge than I am right now. I expected some of my "learning" so far is off, and at the risk of people rolling their eyes right now, it helps me to get back on track.

I'm anxious to get banish's book. The knock retard spikes came at WOT about 6K RPM+. They were spikes. 91 octane is all that is available to me in AZ.

Thanks for your comments about starting with low boost and injectors. Intuitively, I would be keeping a rich AFR and I've picked up duty cycle shouldn't exceed 80%? I go back to carburetted days and was a good tuner then. The basic fueling theory is same, of course.

Good info on MAF tunes, I read something that indicated Maf tunes were more difficult. Doesn't HPT have a feature of some sort that does smoothing? Smoothing tables? Maybe that is only after the initial 1000 cell adjustment. I figured on this topic I am ahead of myself, but this is all so helpful.

I have my eye on a wideband, one that you recommended to someone else in a different thread. I'll get there after I get on HPT and get through some learning curve there.

Thanks, as always!

Unreal

I can walk you through it, or set you up with a base tune, or tune it.

Tuning WOT is cake, adjust 2-3 values. Done.

It is idle/startup/etc that are tougher to tune, but a blower barely changes that. So unless you are doing a cam, or other stuff, you barely need to touch any of that. Its very very easy.

BlindSpot

Thanks Unreal. I am glad to know now that you're out there. Doing a tune is my next (probably final) horizon, and if it falls apart for any reason I'll contact you and work something out. I am so soon right now, I haven't received the kit yet.

All the Best,

BlindSpot

I am continuing to learn/prep. My A&A kit will be delivered tomorrow (and sit in its packaging until I can tune). I am still waiting delivery of my Banish book, but I spend loads of time online. I have not moved over to HP yet, but there is no question I will be over soon. I also then want to switch over to pose Qs to that community.

I am asking for scrutiny and feedback. I am seeing the various states/conditions of engine performance on a matrix with adjustments needed in some, maybe all of these when I switch over to FI from my now stock NA. So, my Qs are:
1. Is this matrix complete? Missing any steps?
2. Experienced FI tuners, which of these steps will need adjustments from NA to FI?
3. Which step would you focus on first/second, etc.?

STEP__________ AFR (VE table)___________ Ign. Timing (table)

Cranking__________X_____________________ _X
Warm up__________X______________________X
Idle______________X_____________________ _X
Cruise____________X_____________________ _X
Acceleration_______X____________________ __X
WOT_____________X______________________X
Deceleration_______X____________________ __X

4. Can someone tell me, going from the factory specs, will I be going + or - adjustments in each step for AFR and Timing?
4. I assume, after FI install, and before starting, I would have logged the NA factory tune, then make adjustments, load those adjustments then start the engine, log, refine adjustments, etc.?


Am I on the right track?

schpenxel

You're way over thinking this.

BlindSpot

That's very good to know, it's what I usually do...so where will I begin to focus adjustment, where will I end?

As always, thanks for your expert input!!

BlindSpot

I can assume I don't need to do adjustments to cranking, warmup (open loop) maybe Idle and deceleration??

Unreal

Banish book is not that good IMO.
Overthinking this.
Matrix missing stuff.
Best of luck.

I would strongly suggest booking a tune with Nic D for your blower install. Once he has it tuned, you can then tweak or play with the tune later.

BlindSpot

Update - I think I now have a tune solution as, yesterday, I found a startup tune I can load to get everything safely running. Then, I will relax a little bit and get fully into HPT and refine my tune myself which was my real goal in this pursuit.

The A&A kit is due to be received today. Sept is my emissions test month is AZ. I'm going to get through that in stock form, then install the kit. AZ, luckily, is just an OBDII "readiness" reading, no inspection.

I'll terminate this thread now....thanks guys for your invaluable help!!