How much Knock Retard is normal?
10-22-2017, 09:23 AM
#21
Le Mans Master
you are just showing your ignorance towards handhelds when you make statements like handhelds don't modify TM tables . you make all these statements with absolutely nothing to back them up....
you are confusing two different topics also, can tunes and Custom mail order tune .....and their prices ...
it does not matter what a tuner uses to access the tables , HP Tuners or CMR they all have access to the same tables ...its up to the experience of the tuner ...and we all know everyone with HP Tuners is an expert right . ECS, Chuck Cow, Diablow Lew, and many more all have all sold thousands of mail order tunes
But none of these work according to you .....
How about the thousands of STREET tunes that are done every day ...are worthless ??
I am not here to say one is better than the other and I DO NOT care if you approve of them ....I here to say there are other options for folks .....
That's why there is BLACK and WHITE ...
please don't bother to respond.....
Dave
you are confusing two different topics also, can tunes and Custom mail order tune .....and their prices ...
it does not matter what a tuner uses to access the tables , HP Tuners or CMR they all have access to the same tables ...its up to the experience of the tuner ...and we all know everyone with HP Tuners is an expert right . ECS, Chuck Cow, Diablow Lew, and many more all have all sold thousands of mail order tunes
But none of these work according to you .....
How about the thousands of STREET tunes that are done every day ...are worthless ??
I am not here to say one is better than the other and I DO NOT care if you approve of them ....I here to say there are other options for folks .....
That's why there is BLACK and WHITE ...
please don't bother to respond.....
Dave
Last edited by Dcasole; 10-22-2017 at 09:25 AM.
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Chuck CoW (10-23-2017)
10-22-2017, 09:36 AM
#22
Wow man didn't realize you were thisnupset over all this lol I never said handhelds don't modify TM tables. I said they don't go in and modify many of them like you can with a real tune. Read my reply again slowly, take a xanax then come on back 
I also said nothing about mail order tunes....I made mention to the op diablos which is not a mail order tune from the people you mentioned. It is a preloaded tune from diablo on a programmer designed to modify a select few tables.
It seems to me reading comprehension escapes you...I've made mention to programmers like the above being faulty useless never mentioned street tunes mail order tunes etc. calm down pop that Zoloft and we can try again
I also said nothing about mail order tunes....I made mention to the op diablos which is not a mail order tune from the people you mentioned. It is a preloaded tune from diablo on a programmer designed to modify a select few tables.
It seems to me reading comprehension escapes you...I've made mention to programmers like the above being faulty useless never mentioned street tunes mail order tunes etc. calm down pop that Zoloft and we can try again
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rajahhindi (07-07-2018)
10-22-2017, 09:38 AM
#23
I said programmers like the diablo don't go in and modify all the tables you can with a real software and tuner....that's easily backed up as I said. If you have hptuners I'll be happy to post a diablo programmer only tune so you can see what exactly you get for 350 bucks lolz
10-22-2017, 09:45 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
You win ....feel better now lol
10-22-2017, 11:02 PM
#25
Lol really? It was late and I really didn't feel like replying to your novel....
But to address your points
1. Track gains are more realistic than dyno numbers and a dyno tune will commonly pick up .2-.3 and a couple mph with a good tune in a stock car. Handhelds are rarely noticeable gains at a track to maybe .1
2. If a handled costs 300 and a dyno tune costs 450 that's a difference of 150 bucks. Even if the tune makes another 10hp (but more to it than that) that's 150 bucks for 10 hp and minimal work what other mod do you know of that even comes close to that hp/dollar ratio? I'll give you a hint...there isn't one
3. Getting a tune with hptuners is more than just about hp. If you actually knew what was in an hpt file you'd know there's more to it than hp. For instance things like burst knock which will retard timing when the throttle is stabbed quickly and then slowly ramp timing back in is not effected with a handheld. There's also TM that pulls timing during hard shifts as well as just general TM. Handhelds again don't really touch these tables, there's several different ones I can think of off the top of my.... the handheld might glance through a couple. There's even more tables with an A6 car but I'm assuming just M6 ones here.
So again it's more than just hp you won't really add hp with each of those changes. After all hp is a result of fuel and ignition (just an FYI) but those tables will all make the car faster by not robbing it of hp. Which the handheld won't do. The proof is in track results because lots of that won't show up on a dyno
But to address your points
1. Track gains are more realistic than dyno numbers and a dyno tune will commonly pick up .2-.3 and a couple mph with a good tune in a stock car. Handhelds are rarely noticeable gains at a track to maybe .1
2. If a handled costs 300 and a dyno tune costs 450 that's a difference of 150 bucks. Even if the tune makes another 10hp (but more to it than that) that's 150 bucks for 10 hp and minimal work what other mod do you know of that even comes close to that hp/dollar ratio? I'll give you a hint...there isn't one
3. Getting a tune with hptuners is more than just about hp. If you actually knew what was in an hpt file you'd know there's more to it than hp. For instance things like burst knock which will retard timing when the throttle is stabbed quickly and then slowly ramp timing back in is not effected with a handheld. There's also TM that pulls timing during hard shifts as well as just general TM. Handhelds again don't really touch these tables, there's several different ones I can think of off the top of my.... the handheld might glance through a couple. There's even more tables with an A6 car but I'm assuming just M6 ones here.
So again it's more than just hp you won't really add hp with each of those changes. After all hp is a result of fuel and ignition (just an FYI) but those tables will all make the car faster by not robbing it of hp. Which the handheld won't do. The proof is in track results because lots of that won't show up on a dyno
Hand held = Free?
Also what if you change some simple parts and need a new tune.
I'm guessing hand held is cheaper for a new custom tune.
Where I live tunes are illegal, so handheld is the way to go.
Especially for an every day car.
10-23-2017, 03:54 AM
#26
A diablo isn't going to allow you to change anything...it has a preloaded tune if you do mail order or a custom tune it's way more versatile to new mods. In fact do a cam headers etc and that diablo becomes a paperweight.
Selling the car??thats fine go back to your tuner or send the com back in and have them load in a stock tune. Usually tuners will charge a minimum fee if any at all just to put back in a stock tune.
Tunes are illegal where you live....so a custom tune or mail order tune is a no go...but tuning your car with a diablo is legal? Huh wtf lol it's no different a tune is a tune one is just a betterbroute
Selling the car??thats fine go back to your tuner or send the com back in and have them load in a stock tune. Usually tuners will charge a minimum fee if any at all just to put back in a stock tune.
Tunes are illegal where you live....so a custom tune or mail order tune is a no go...but tuning your car with a diablo is legal? Huh wtf lol it's no different a tune is a tune one is just a betterbroute
10-23-2017, 06:46 AM
#27
Le Mans Master
Let it go Nick ...... he has his viewpoint and 100,000 like us have ours ......
Dave
Dave
10-23-2017, 07:00 AM
#29
Le Mans Master
The last question it asks before you upload is do u want to modify the tune . Also may changes can be made in the TCM tune .
While not as detailed as HP Tuners it's much safer for the common folk like us lol
We already agreed that if you are doing cam u would need a dyno tune at that point I would just sell it on this forum for 2/3 of what I paid for it ....Not a bad deal considering
As Blindspot pointed out above the handheld has it's place for people that are not looking at big power ... just simple mods or better driveblity ....
A whole lot of people have made this choice because otherwise they would not be in business selling the at the price they are getting , do u not agree ??
Nobody is right or wrong here it's is just freedom of choice
Dave
10-23-2017, 06:47 PM
#30
You would be surprised at what you can change in all the tunes, stock,caned, and mail order .
The last question it asks before you upload is do u want to modify the tune . Also may changes can be made in the TCM tune .
While not as detailed as HP Tuners it's much safer for the common folk like us lol
We already agreed that if you are doing cam u would need a dyno tune at that point I would just sell it on this forum for 2/3 of what I paid for it ....Not a bad deal considering
As Blindspot pointed out above the handheld has it's place for people that are not looking at big power ... just simple mods or better driveblity ....
A whole lot of people have made this choice because otherwise they would not be in business selling the at the price they are getting , do u not agree ??
Nobody is right or wrong here it's is just freedom of choice
Dave
The last question it asks before you upload is do u want to modify the tune . Also may changes can be made in the TCM tune .
While not as detailed as HP Tuners it's much safer for the common folk like us lol
We already agreed that if you are doing cam u would need a dyno tune at that point I would just sell it on this forum for 2/3 of what I paid for it ....Not a bad deal considering
As Blindspot pointed out above the handheld has it's place for people that are not looking at big power ... just simple mods or better driveblity ....
A whole lot of people have made this choice because otherwise they would not be in business selling the at the price they are getting , do u not agree ??
Nobody is right or wrong here it's is just freedom of choice
Dave
Hey! Hey! Hey!... keep your dicks in your pants...
I like handheld tuners, it's cheaper and easier for simple changes.
Last edited by nick14003; 10-23-2017 at 06:48 PM.
10-23-2017, 06:56 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
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Dcasole (10-23-2017)
10-23-2017, 08:57 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
now that's funny Chuck .....lol
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Chuck CoW (10-23-2017)
10-24-2017, 01:01 AM
#34
Former Vendor
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Ossining New York
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
The smart way to do it.....
The smart way to do it..... Is to have my AutoCal tool and tuning package.
Not Just a handheld..... But a TOP OF THE LINE PROFESSIONAL TUNING TOOL re-packaged as an inexpensive
tuning and logging tool.... Nothing watered down and it let's me deliver the EXACT SAME professional tunes
I do for customers here live in person..... NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE.
Nothing "HANDHELD" about it.
Call me if you want to know more. 914-332-0049
Thanks
Chuck CoW
Not Just a handheld..... But a TOP OF THE LINE PROFESSIONAL TUNING TOOL re-packaged as an inexpensive
tuning and logging tool.... Nothing watered down and it let's me deliver the EXACT SAME professional tunes
I do for customers here live in person..... NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE.
Nothing "HANDHELD" about it.
Call me if you want to know more. 914-332-0049
Thanks
Chuck CoW
10-24-2017, 06:13 PM
#35
10-24-2017, 09:34 PM
#36
Former Vendor
Member Since: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Fl
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St. Jude Donor '12
Corvette tuner in Tampa
This thread hurt my head.
Not an all inclusive response to every situation, but in general this is what I see at sea level:
In Florida, In a stock corvette on a stock tune on a normal 85-90 degree day using 93 octane, I usually see 4-6 degrees of timing retard. That also depends on load and brand of fuel.
with 91 octane, I see 5-8
and although I don't see many corvettes running 87 octane, I do calibrate trucks ( and sometimes Camaros ) that use 87-89 octane, and they are usually 6-10 degrees of timing retard.
but there are a lot of factors that cause knock. Every once in a while, I get one that has no knock.
most of them are rich by generally 5-8% and knock 4 degrees.
Heat is your enemy.
with any mail order process, you should be exchanging a couple scans of the car to see the affects of the changes in the tune.
Phil
Not an all inclusive response to every situation, but in general this is what I see at sea level:
In Florida, In a stock corvette on a stock tune on a normal 85-90 degree day using 93 octane, I usually see 4-6 degrees of timing retard. That also depends on load and brand of fuel.
with 91 octane, I see 5-8
and although I don't see many corvettes running 87 octane, I do calibrate trucks ( and sometimes Camaros ) that use 87-89 octane, and they are usually 6-10 degrees of timing retard.
but there are a lot of factors that cause knock. Every once in a while, I get one that has no knock.
most of them are rich by generally 5-8% and knock 4 degrees.
Heat is your enemy.
with any mail order process, you should be exchanging a couple scans of the car to see the affects of the changes in the tune.
Phil
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Dcasole (10-24-2017)
11-14-2017, 12:39 AM
#37
Drifting
now thats interesting. on a stock c6 (ls2, ls3?) you see 6° of retard? then you go and pay $800 for somebody to raise timing and lean out the mixture? maybe even set the low octane table higher and desenisitise the sensors. or how does that work?
fortunately my c5 has virtually no knock retard stock. (it gets into pe pretty soon, though.)
to op: you should check on burst retard and torque management, as mentioned. but with the diablo?
fortunately my c5 has virtually no knock retard stock. (it gets into pe pretty soon, though.)
to op: you should check on burst retard and torque management, as mentioned. but with the diablo?
Last edited by romandian; 11-14-2017 at 12:44 AM.
11-15-2017, 08:28 PM
#38
Former Vendor
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
????? desensitize the sensors ????????
now thats interesting. on a stock c6 (ls2, ls3?) you see 6° of retard? then you go and pay $800 for somebody to raise timing and lean out the mixture? maybe even set the low octane table higher and desenisitise the sensors. or how does that work?
fortunately my c5 has virtually no knock retard stock. (it gets into pe pretty soon, though.)
to op: you should check on burst retard and torque management, as mentioned. but with the diablo?
fortunately my c5 has virtually no knock retard stock. (it gets into pe pretty soon, though.)
to op: you should check on burst retard and torque management, as mentioned. but with the diablo?
????? desensitize the sensors ????????From time to time I talk to other tuners that tell me they "desensitize the sensors" or sometimes get "FALSE KNOCK".....
While I've heard of such a thing..... I'VE NEVER HEARD OF SUCH A THING.....
Find a new tuner.....
With all the LS2 combos I've seen..... I've NEVER claimed "false knock".
Either your fuel is wrong or your spark is wrong...... or BOTH.
Chuck CoW
11-16-2017, 10:56 AM
#39
Platinum Supporting Vendor
What Chuck just said. Desensitizing sensors I have heard this allot and I would like to know who is modifying he sensor. Knock is knock, 1/2 degree 5 degrees, what is normal is 0.
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Chuck CoW (11-24-2017)
11-20-2017, 10:14 AM
#40
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '15
Just unplug them, problem solved.
/tooner
/tooner
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Chuck CoW (11-21-2017)
