nick14003

I just data logged my car for the first time

05 A4 Ls2

the knock retard generally stays at 0.0, but it jumps every now and then, sometimes up to 4.0+

Running 91 Octane, that was in 85 degree weather, is that normal?
What's the power loss with that much knock retard?

Also spark advance is at 12. whats the oem timing for these cars?

Car is pretty much stock except for a vararam air intake.

Should I put on a 91 octane tune or not?

BlindSpot

There is truly not enough info here to give you any real FB.

Just some general comments -

On the KR, 1 to 1.5* KR isn't that serious (or real); 4* is getting serious. I would be working 4*. But, you also need to know how/what you're reading when datalogging. So many conditions come into play (not enough info given) before you can conclude you have a KR issue at all. KR might be false and not real KR, but knowing what you're looking at in the DL starts to reveal that, along with other, comparative DLs.

Stating that spark advance is at 12* and asking what is the OEM timing for these cars is about the same as saying the sun is shining so what time is it? Wherever you saw the 12* in the datalog could/probably is, normal for that given spark air mass. And normal, that is, as a FINAL timing, which is all you can see in a DL. At that particular moment where 12* was recorded, might not match the timing table as there are numerous adjustments the ECM might possibly make to produce a final spark advance. Too numerous to begin to mention here.

85* ambient temps are at the cusp where IATs will begin to pull timing. If the ambient was 85*, likely your actual IAT was higher to much higher than that. Could be anywhere from 1* to 10* higher. Timing is being pulled when IATs reach 86* and higher on a stock factory tune.

You might just be starting out with datalogging. Consider it like training wheels on a bike. You took your first ride, but there is a lot more to learn before you're riding a two wheeler. Encourage you to keep DLing and learn more and more, but at this point, there are no real answers to your Qs.

schpenxel

What system are you using to log and what parameter are you seeing KR on? Knock retard, total knock retard, burst knock retard... there are quite a few with totally different meanings

Basically...

nick14003

I think it just said Knock Retard. I'm using the diablosport intune I2.

Ok, not enough info... but does 4 degrees of timing lose a significant amount of horsepower? I'm trying to understand how much power is theoretically missing.

Just trying to get some rough estimates or opinions, I am aware there are other variables. and I am new to data logging.

But does 0.0 degrees timing generally mean maximum horsepower? or can that be achieved at a different degree of retarded timing?

Do stock brand new perfect condition cars run 0.0 degrees on the recommended fuel?

Trying to understand the basics

nick14003

I think it just said Knock Retard. I'm using the diablosport intune I2.

Ok, not enough info... but does 4 degrees of timing lose a significant amount of horsepower? I'm trying to understand how much power is theoretically missing.

Just trying to get some rough estimates or opinions, I am aware there are other variables. and I am new to data logging.

But does 0.0 degrees timing generally mean maximum horsepower? or can that be achieved at a different degree of retarded timing?

Do stock brand new perfect condition cars run 0.0 degrees on the recommended fuel?

Trying to understand the basics

BlindSpot

I'll drop off here. I am not an I2 user. It's been a million years since I played with one and didn't like the DL so....not the right guy....Best,

Dcasole

Nick , I think what both these guys are asking , and they are both two guys that I consider experts in tuning , is what are the conditions that you are seeing the 4 degrees of Knock Retard ? They will be able to help you more if you can supply as much info as you can.

I use the Diablo to log and the viewer , I set it up with digital gauges showing IAT air temps ,short term and long term fuel trims , rpm , mph , requested timming, actual timing , knock retard and WOT fuel (which is not accurate without a wideband but close enough ...) and some other gauges that escape me at the moment

So lets start with are you doing a wide open run ?

what MPH did you get up to and what gear are u in ?

We know the outside temps were as you stated it was 85 degrees but what was the IAT temps

What brand of gasoline are you running , I have found that Shell causes more knock retard on my car , I now stick with Mobil and Chevron ( Thanks HOXXOH)

At what RPM and gear is the Knock Retard happening. Run the viewer at normal speed till you see the Knock Retard . At that point rewind it and then just move the pointer slowly thru the RPM range that you see it . Use the Tach to see what gear you are in .. what rpm does it start and when does it end ?

What gear are you in when you see it?

I was getting brief spike of 4 degrees knock retard just before the 1st to 2nd gear shift

Not knowing if it was false knock or fuel related was recommended that i richen it up a bit which I did and I no longer am seeing the brief spike

Dave

nick14003

Ok I actually downloaded the file and viewed in the data viewer.
It seems under hard acceleration there is almost 0.0 knock retard and total spark knock retard. So i'm happy about that

It seems when I floor just for a moment the knock jumps,

and occasionally when crusing,from slight changes in acceleration etc..

Also at one point, normal crusing and accelerating from 38mph to 40mph, for like 0.25 seconds It jumped to 11 degrees knock retard.

Are these false readings?
Are false readings common when data logging?
I'm new to this, so i'm not sure what I should worry about or not.

Dcasole

you have to give more detail ................otherwise its like trying to diagnose CANCER over the phone ..............

And what gasoline are you running ......?

When you say floor it ... is it downshifting all the way to 1st ??

are you hard on the pedal to the floor from a dead stop ?

or are you rolling and you mash the pedal to the floor

What gear are you in when accelerating ?

I would not worry about that short a period of time of KNOCK retard and I can assure you that you are not losing any power so to speak but I defer to BlindSpot or schpenxel as these guys are the experts

Dave

nick14003

I didn't do perfect controlled tests since I was doing it on the streets and I live in a big city. I'll just live with undiagnosed cancer for now. Lol

redbird555

Gen IV pcms are known to pull timing even if there is no spark knock....they are very sensitive but that doesn't for sure mean you have don't actually have real knock. Brand new cars will do exactly what yours is doing for the reason I said above so no it's not normal. But yes 4* depending on where it is can have a significant effect on power.

When you floor it and it retards timing just for a split second that almost sounds like burst knock which is when the pcm pulls timing when it sees a big change in airflow because it "thinks" real knock might happen. Many tuners turn this off some just dumb it down.

Honestly if you've tuned the car wit the diablo I'd punning it back to stock and log again. Then sell the diablo and go get a real dyno tune. A tuner will not only pick up more power than the hand held but they'll also be able to monitor knock retro and make adjustment as needed

BlindSpot

Agree with much of this especially the last par. Handheld tuners only let you see the tip of the iceberg in the tune, so to speak, and keep control of tune parameters via SW controls that are safe and only allow very limited changes the user can make to the actual tune data.

To the OP - Unless/until you understand the complete dynamic process behind the design of this engine management system, it is difficult to see any one datapoint in a DL and make much sense of it. That said, we all started somewhere, so please don't get discouraged. Keep DLing, start watching for changes in data when you do the exact same thing but maybe only one input changes. That is a hellova learning moment...that, and reading a lot.

On the 11* drop in timing at a moment in time - so many factors could cause that if we knew all of the parameters under which this momentary datapoint occurred. For example, something as simple as a nanny control like TC could have caused that 11* spike as timing is one of three control methods available to the ECM when the BCM notifies it there is wheel spin. So, if you stabbed throttle, it downshifted in the right gear and tires began to spin, timing might have been pulled for a moment to regain TC IF TC/AH was not turned off when you DLed. Just one of all the other questions unknown in a simple post about looking for an explanation in a DL.

Dcasole

Thanks Blindspot.... as always a very good explanation

Dave

Dcasole

Depends on how long and when ... I serious doubt that the SPLIT second knock retard he is seeing is causing any significant loss in power . I agree with Blindspot that it could be one of many things causing his timing retard with the most luckily being TC kicking in

Handhelds have their place ...everyone makes these statements with no regard if a GOOD tuner is within driving distance or that there even is a good tuner in the area ....
Then we all know there are guys who think they can tune that do more damage than good .... just look at all the guys complaining about their idle after a cam install and tune

I know several so called tuners in my area that I don't think I would let touch my car . I am lucky that there are also two of the most respected LS tuners close by but others might not be so lucky

I would like to see a back to back comparison of a stock dyno run , then a 93 canned tune\mail order tune , and then a actual dyno tune to see if there is really than much more you can squeeze out of a stock car with a canned\mail order tune.

There are posts of the dyno results from stock to canned tune but none that I can find from canned\mail order tune to DYNO tuned with no changes . I would love to see that just for my own personal knowledge

Now stepping up to the next level , If the Custom Mail order tuner knows what he is doing, the handheld is just a device to upload.......
I am confident that ECS and the others have done more tunes than anybody out there and know exactly what parameters need to be change for stock tunes or Bolt On tunes for mods such as headers

The other factor is cost .....in my area its $500.00 to $800 for a good dyno tune . I have $350 tied up in my tuner and custom tune , am I leaving some HP on the table ? , maybe , but is what is left on the table worth an additional $150 to $450 ... ??

Don't know, but for now I am happy with my 1/4 mile times and MPH in my Grocery getter lol lol

I just need to get my lazy butt in gear and get a cam installed and a real dyno tune .....

Dave

redbird555

I'm assuming the op wouldn't let just anyone tune his car. Handhelds really only have a place when you absolutely cannot get anyone else to tune your car.

All most of these things do is jack up some timing and lean out PE. It really doesn't take much skill from a tuner to beat that. You also just indirectly helped prove my point. If someone can pay 350 for a diablo or similar or 500 for a dyno tune or even 200 bucks to have their pcm sent out why wouldn't they? The extr 150 for a real tune is well worth it.

There are many things as well that a handheld won't touch. Hidden TM tables that subtract timing at various times small fueling and timing change tables etc. all of that will get changed if you have a decent reputable tuner.

BlindSpot

I agree here too, taking a position on the other side of the coin. The Points Dcasole makes are all good ones. To defend the shelf devices like DS (especially I2s) - There is a huge market for them. They will satisfy the needs, and put smiles on the faces of many more casual and weekend road warriors not looking for some stupid HP that will ruin a street car.

On the DS, from what little time I had with the I2, it was a very well thought out platform, simple to use, very difficult if not impossible to make a mistake. There are menu driven and controlled tune options the user can make without fear of bricking his ECU.

The company found a way to create a usable affordable tune tool for first modification steps and, at the same time, create a commercially viable product that protects their intellectual assets. Their platform design is actually rather ingenious. It is difficult to design such a product and protect against one person buying the tool, then sharing it with 100 of his buddies, all for the price of one unit.

Opting going to a pro tuner means, to some extent, you've surrendered control of the tune. Anytime a change is needed, it's back to the pro. I was never able to consider surrendering the tune to someone other than myself.

Dcasole

So the questions that still remains to be answered.
1- does the tuner really leave that much HP on the table with a stock untouched motor and canned tune
2- do these HIDDEN adjustments really unleash the power on a stock unmodified car ....?
3- is the gain enough to justify the price ?
4- Does the tuner really leave that much HP on the table with a custom tune from a reputable mail order tuner on a mild modified Headers , maybe an intake or a ported throttle body ??

Unless we see some real back to back data and even that will have some margin of error because of conditions changing I don't think we can answer these questions.... Do you ?

I have a good feeling for the answer for #4 and the answer is the handheld is fine for uploadeing custom tunes

The data that I am basing my opinion on is the many 1/4 time slips I have from running my car every week . Of course I would rather back this up with real dyno data but...... Could I be faster ....maybe but I am confident that the few HP that I am leaving on the table I would not even feel .

My bigger gain will be improving my " DRIVER MOD" which at this time stinks ....
Dave

redbird555

hey man if you want to **** away money on a handheld tuner to gain 10hp instead of a real tune no one here is gonna stop you have fun......

Dcasole

Thank you as I did not think you would
But I think your estimate of 10 HP is low and you did not answer the questions above pertaining to if you turn all those little "*****" what HP gain is there going to be over a handheld?

And that there is that much left on the table after a custom tune for small mods like headers ....

At least I have some data for the last one that I can backup my statements with .....
Dave

redbird555

Lol really? It was late and I really didn't feel like replying to your novel....

But to address your points

1. Track gains are more realistic than dyno numbers and a dyno tune will commonly pick up .2-.3 and a couple mph with a good tune in a stock car. Handhelds are rarely noticeable gains at a track to maybe .1

2. If a handled costs 300 and a dyno tune costs 450 that's a difference of 150 bucks. Even if the tune makes another 10hp (but more to it than that) that's 150 bucks for 10 hp and minimal work what other mod do you know of that even comes close to that hp/dollar ratio? I'll give you a hint...there isn't one

3. Getting a tune with hptuners is more than just about hp. If you actually knew what was in an hpt file you'd know there's more to it than hp. For instance things like burst knock which will retard timing when the throttle is stabbed quickly and then slowly ramp timing back in is not effected with a handheld. There's also TM that pulls timing during hard shifts as well as just general TM. Handhelds again don't really touch these tables, there's several different ones I can think of off the top of my.... the handheld might glance through a couple. There's even more tables with an A6 car but I'm assuming just M6 ones here.

So again it's more than just hp you won't really add hp with each of those changes. After all hp is a result of fuel and ignition (just an FYI) but those tables will all make the car faster by not robbing it of hp. Which the handheld won't do. The proof is in track results because lots of that won't show up on a dyno