I, like many other forum members, have a highly-modified, tuned engine producing considerably more horsepower and torque than a stock engine. Although LPE/21st Century Muscle Cars understandably protects their complete custom tuning specs as proprietary information, I know a few of the basic tuning parameters. I also understand the factory-set torque management has been throttled-down via tuning.

I was cautioned to always shutoff Traction Control when going WOT. Not only would using Traction Control be somewhat self-defeating after spending all that money for increased power and performance but I was also lead to believe using TC when going WOT would increase the chance of breaking something.

I’m very conscientious about shutting-off TC when going WOT, however, I neglected to do so the other day. With TC on, I easily generated massive tire-spin in both 1st and 2nd gear before noticing TC was on and backing-off the throttle.

What is the connection between adjustments to torque management and Traction Control, if any? Does limiting torque management via a tune decrease the effectiveness of TC? I was somewhat surprised how easily I over-powered TC….would it seem likely the TC parameters have also been modified?

 

With TC on I can blow the tires off through 3rd and get it to chop in 4th. This is with slipping the clutch and rolling into the throttle. @ 4k rpm it just lites up. I'm not talking dumping the thing and doing rolling burnouts, I'm talking rolling into the car, after its moving at a good clip. TC is worthless on highly modded cars. On the street I just leave it on and watch the little lite flash at me all crazy.

However, I've been thinking about this and had the same thoughts as to your line of questioning. If we leave it on, the car will pull timing and close the throttle, I think. I'm not sure if it uses the same power robbing tools as TM but they can't be good.

 

A fellow C6 owner (with a HP Tuner) here in Tucson told me "....TC seems to be 90% of available torque which is raised by most custom tunes...." It would seem, if TC parameters are left unchanged, that the 90% would remain constant irregardless of torque...or increased torque by means of modifying the torque management.

I'm used to shutting-off TC when going WOT and like you, just rolling along....hitting the throttle and spinning the tires. I guess even 90% of that much torque is sufficient to 'walk-over' TC.

 

wayne, forgive me for not following your thought here, why would having tc on increase of chance of breaking something? with tc on, pcm cut timing and cloth throttle to reduce power in hope the tires would have a chance to hook up. thanks

 

The answer to your last question is yes, depending on how they limited TM. Here is I believe the main table used for traction control. I know if you put 100's in this table you will not have traction control. Dash will say you do but you don't. The computer is trying to close the throttle but you've prevented it from doing so. You can do less than 100, and then traction control will be less effective (it will let you spin more before kicking in). I am certainly not an expert but I've looked at all of these parameters the engine uses to provide traction control, I cannot see why it is important to turn of TC when going WOT. If TC kicks in, it pulls spark advance and then closes your throttle for you. Can't see how these things would be dangerous for your engine? I suppose if you cut fuel for TC you could hurt a blown engine... but the fuel cut for TC feature is turned off by default in the factory tune and I can't imagine a tuner would turn that on?

You can also see some of the other parameters you can change for TM in this screen shot.

 

When TC pulls timing on your car you still have the HP and Torque of a Stock c6 which will spin the tires in the low gears. TM has been set to kick in at a high RPM or higher than your redline which keeps it from ever engaging. So in effect changing the TM parameter allows your car to over-power TC in the lower RPM ranges.

 

these are the type of screen shots that confuse me.

the items in question are in the 'engine' tab, however, it does not appear that all 'settings' would apply to the c6. apparently one needs to 'pick and choose' which settings they believe apply to their engine and ignore the others.

example: front axle max, front propshaft max, rear propshaft max

can someone explain the ETC TPS vs RPM vs % Max avaliable torque table.

for example: at 2000 rpms and 398 lt lbs. does the table permit 100 a electronic throttle control throttle position sensor position. does that mean the etc tps is 100 percent open or is does it mean the etc tps is 100 percent closed?

why are there tabs for superchager and turbocharger unless these are generic settings that may or may not apply to said vehicle.

 

After seeing the following stock screens provided does anyone have a picture of a modified by scan table to show??

 

Tuners can be confusing until you spend a fair amount of time learning it then you will find it's very well written with excellent help files explaining almost everything. HP Tuners can tune many vehicles and even different years of vehicles are different in what you can tune, so they have generic tabs and buttons on the front end of the software, but there isn't always a table to change there when you click on them. They are "greyed out" or non-existent.

For example the help file on this table says "This is the maximum allowed ETC throttle percent based on the current percentage of torque being delivered. The PCM used this to limit the ETC opening rate to maintain traction"

The simple answer is if you put 100's in every cell in this particular table you will have no traction control.

Sofgl I could show you a modified table but just imagine 100's in every cell. I'm actually going back to stock - when I put 100's in this table it didn't help on the drag strip and I like having the traction control on the street if I hit a wet patch or something.

 

By the way foff667 on the HP Tuners board gives excellent help for beginners. Here's some "welcome to tuning for newbies" threads on their forum. They were invaluable to me when I got started.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5691

 

huh ?

does that mean that 100% open throttle position had little effect upon the calculations used for tm ?

are different table or settings used for the different modes ? is it possible to reprogram the different modes, tc on, tc off, comp, and all off ?

 

I race with all off now since I don't have sensors in my drag radials and driving up to the track screws up the active handling. With all off I don't think this table matters. I used to trailer up my tires so I thought this would help when I ran in comp mode but I didn't notice any difference in my times putting all 100's in this table.

Now my traction control doesn't work even when all is "on" so I'm going to put this table back to stock.

You seem interested in this. I suggest you spend some time looking at the documents linked above, my buddies and I have really enjoyed getting into this tuning.

 

actually, i am interested in the tuning possibilities, i simply haven't decided upon which set i want to spend the money on, they aint cheap.

i'm one that has to analyze everything before i make changes.

 

Yes I like to do research before I buy too. The HP Tuners forum is excellent, take a look there and at the links I posed above.

Tuners just dropped their price too - the cord comes capable of tuning 4 LS2 cars (it used to be only 2 cars) so you can split the cost with your buddies. That's what I have done and it also give us something to learn together so we work with each other on our knowledge and have fun.

After getting into tuning, I would have avoided buying a vararam or frankly even headers. I bet I would be within .2 of where I'm at now with gears and tuning only. These cars have pretty good exhaust factory.

 

I know Joe has done a lot of research and testing regarding this but I'm not sure we have a 100% handle on what all the torque management/traction control tables mean on the C6. There is still some conjecture about alot of LS2 tables (not just Torque management/control related) and what they do, if anything. LS2/7 tuning is relatively new and new tables are coming out all the time (displacement on demand, A6 shift parameters, etc.) as they are figured out.

There was some testing done with the table Joe lists as to whether it affects traction control or if it is just limiting the TPS in relation to RPM and calculated torque regardless of traction here: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9947
It seemed to indicate that the ETC VS: TPS table could be maxed out and still retain traction control. There are a lot of things that need to be nailed down. The C5 had a TPS VS: RPM VS: Torque table but it was all zeros. So if this table is being used in the C6 is it only used when the PCM senses a loss of traction or is it actually limiting the TPS regardless of traction? If it's limiting the TPS regardless of how much traction there is then it is hampering performance unless you tune it to the edge of traction loss for your vehicle and that would change due to varying road conditions. Then there is the question of how is the PCM calculating the torque to look up on this table? Through one of the tables under the maximum torque heading? And if you mod your car how do you know what values to put into those tables?

GM made tuning a lot less intuitive on the LS2's. There are certainly tables that are not used that are editable. Also note that the screenshot Joe put up is a stock flash so none of the max torque fields seem to make any difference, most are maxed out.

 

Either this is a C5 screenshot or there is something wrong with my software. I have 12-15 files from C6 6 speeds, autos and Z06s and they are totally diff. tables in torque management.

 

I believe it is only on the '05's (E40 PCM's). Neat huh? Begs the question, how is TC tuned on an '06 or '07?

No VE tables in '06+ either.

 

my bad.
Just opened up a 05 Z51, learn something new everyday.........

 

Great info...thanks guys.