Wheel hop!! More passes at the strip...
06-22-2007, 05:20 PM
#21
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I'm not going to "quit while I'm ahead" as IMO that will put me "behind" in my joy of owning a 'Vette. FOR ME, running a car at the strip is part of the ownership experience. If I can't have that, or if the car won't do that, then I don't want that car. Obviously you don't feel that way and that's fine. Go cruise Main Street and please stay out of my thread, unless you have something to contibute to either 1. Reducing wheel hop, or 2. Improving 60' times.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 06-22-2007 at 05:22 PM.
06-22-2007, 05:20 PM
#22
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You'll need to key in the simple formulae.
Here is the NRHA correction factor table: http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/altitude.html
Ranger
06-22-2007, 05:28 PM
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Oh, thats right, its only us 1/4 mile people that break things, keep dreaming.
06-22-2007, 05:34 PM
#24
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You're right, Corrected for the actual of 4400' my time is a 12.5 @114, which is right on the button. Problem is, I know that I can do better. I always have done "better" in other cars, I'm already driving ~1 second faster than any other C6 that shows up at our track, and then there is that 2.2x+ 60' time...that I know just isn't right. My best run so far (at this track) is a 13.02 which converts to a 12.29 @ sea level...and that's on a 2.1x 60' time, in 90+* heat (DA of 6200 IIRC). You can clearly see that even in those conditions, if I can "clean up" my 60' to the tune of 1.9x, I'll have a 12.9x or better. This is my personal goal; to have a 12.99 or better NHRA time slip...at this elevation -basically where I live. That puts me at a corrected 12.26 at sea level -darn close to some of the fastest times for a stock C6.
I've already run a 12.89 at another track near here; same elevation but about 100 miles west of here (Wendover). That coverts to a 12.17. Problem is, that track doesn't use break out of times, or time slips so I don't have "proof". I don't have that time slip and for whatever reason, getting that is important to me.
EDIT: I was typing while Ranger was posting. What he said.
RANGER: thank you for the jpg. I'll turn it into a spread sheet w/formulas. Thanks.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 06-22-2007 at 05:58 PM.
06-22-2007, 05:48 PM
#25
You are probably not going to leave a road course on a flatbed because you busted an expensive driveline part. A drag strip, well, its a different story. And you can "run into things" on a drag strip too.
You're a whole lot less likely to bust a differential case, shaft, or transmission output shaft on a road course or at an autocross than on a drag strip getting wheel hop.
My point is, if you are going to flog your C6, a car actually built for the road course, trying to beat what you think is an acceptable 1/4 mile time out of it, on a drag strip, and all the time telling us that you are getting wheel hop and trying your damndest to get sub 2.0 60ft times out of it on street tires, on a "questionable" drag strip, then you are begging for trouble.
Trouble your warranty is not likely to cover while you are chasing that time which you probably will never hit.. And if you do hit it, it will possibly be after considerable expense replacing parts which were casualties of the "learning" process.
The fact that he didn't leave there on a flatbed trying to beat a time out of that car, is a miracle.
I decided to leave the drag racing to the ricers, the Mustangs and the F bodies. The car was built for the road course and thats where it shines.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 06-22-2007 at 06:04 PM.
06-22-2007, 05:56 PM
#26
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Most of the stuff you are going to go through on a road course are wear items which would have had to have been replaced at some point on your dime anyway.
You're a whole lot less likely to bust a differential case, shaft, or transmission output shaft on a road course or at an autocross than on a drag strip getting wheel hop.
My point is, if you are going to flog your C6, a car actually built for the road course, trying to beat what you think is an acceptable time out of it, on a drag strip, and all the time telling us that you are getting wheel hop and trying your damndest to get sub 2.0 60ft times out of it on street tires, on a "questionable" drag strip, then you are begging for trouble.
The fact that he didn't leave there on a flatbed trying to beat a time out of that car, is a miracle
You're a whole lot less likely to bust a differential case, shaft, or transmission output shaft on a road course or at an autocross than on a drag strip getting wheel hop.
My point is, if you are going to flog your C6, a car actually built for the road course, trying to beat what you think is an acceptable time out of it, on a drag strip, and all the time telling us that you are getting wheel hop and trying your damndest to get sub 2.0 60ft times out of it on street tires, on a "questionable" drag strip, then you are begging for trouble.
The fact that he didn't leave there on a flatbed trying to beat a time out of that car, is a miracle
06-22-2007, 06:04 PM
#27
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Plus, I don't intend to continue to experience wheel hop. Hence this proactive thread.
Speaking of this thread...any advice on reducing wheel hop or lowering the 60' time? Or are you just going to continue to input your misguided opinion about 'Vettes usage which I don't care about and didn't ask for?
I don't know why you're on a rant about breaking parts, flatbeds etc.yet you've contributed NOTHING to the original intent of this thread! Clearly, I've anounced that I'm aware of the ramifications of how I use my car, and I accept that. What do you stand to prove in this thread?
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 06-22-2007 at 06:15 PM.
06-22-2007, 06:19 PM
#29
I'm exaggerating of course but the C6 can drag and does it well for a road car. I've got about 80 passes with 0 breakage and I've had wheel hop, almost lost control, etc. It could break, I could also get hit by an idiot on the road; like the old man who forced into the median, luckily it was grass. Anyway, drag racing can be done, has been done and will continue to be done. It's much better than buying a Vette, putting 3M all over it and treating it like prissy car. Go ***** out with it one way or another.
1. End up busting something.
2. End up turning a car which was built for the road course into a car which only travels fast in a staight line. Weirdest thing to see a C5 or C6 Vette with slicks and skinnies on it in effect "dumbing it down" to a car which does only one thing well. Travel quickly in a straight line. The car was never built with that as a single purpose.
3. End up modifying it in an effort to maximize straight line performance and compromising it's drivability.
4. End up busting something.
The original poster said a few things in his first post which raised a red flag for me.
First he was concerned about his 60ft times in a car which was not built and does not have tires on it designed to produce impressive 60ft times.
Secondly, he mentions severe wheel hop, which has described here in gory detail. When I myself was attempting to carry over from my C5 days and turn my C6 into a dragstrip demon, I experienced severe wheel hop on more than one occasion. No doubt in my mind, if I had continued trying to run a set time, I would have long since busted something by now.
Third he alludes to track prep, ie mentions a "crappy track."
Fourth he has another thread out there about the number of attempts one should get during test and tunes, etc.
The above is a recipe for broken driveline parts attempting to flog out what one believes is an "acceptable" 1/4 mile time. 1/4 mile times in a car which was not built as a quarter mile racer don't mean as much to me as they may for you.
06-22-2007, 06:23 PM
#30
Well, stay tuned and see, why don't you? I'm betting on NOT breaking parts, based on my past racing experience w/"weak" parts in previous cars. Do you know how "weak" a T5 transmission is? Weak. It's rated for a max of 275 lb of torque. I ran one for YEARS in a Trans Am behind a modified SBC 400. Drag raced it several times a week for years. I 60'ed in the 1.8x's consistently, and power-shifted it every gear, every pass. One time, I broke a $12 3-4 shift fork, which I replaced in less than 1.5 hours. Trans never broke or failed however. Ever hear about the "weak" 10 bolt rear in F-bodies? Same car same story.
Plus, I don't intend to continue to experience wheel hop. Hence this proactive thread.
Speaking of this thread...any advice on reducing wheel hop or lowering the 60' time? Or are you just going to continue to input your misguided opinion about 'Vettes usage which I don't care about and didn't ask for?
I don't know why you're on a rant about breaking parts, flatbeds etc.yet you've contributed NOTHING to the original intent of this thread! Clearly, I've anounced that I'm aware of the ramifications of how I use my car, and I accept that. What do you stand to prove in this thread?
Speaking of this thread...any advice on reducing wheel hop or lowering the 60' time? Or are you just going to continue to input your misguided opinion about 'Vettes usage which I don't care about and didn't ask for?
I don't know why you're on a rant about breaking parts, flatbeds etc.yet you've contributed NOTHING to the original intent of this thread! Clearly, I've anounced that I'm aware of the ramifications of how I use my car, and I accept that. What do you stand to prove in this thread?
I have told you, and thats it, I'm out.
06-22-2007, 07:51 PM
#31
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06-22-2007, 08:25 PM
#32
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Pretty much your reasoning not mine.
It's a car, built to drive. Drag, road race, cones, no matter. Cars break going down the road, on a road course or at the strip. Only race it one way so it doesn't break? Thats the gist of what you are saying. Ridiculous. Might as be one of these guys who quotes 0-60 times.
Oh, I hear you. I track mine too. But like I said, my point is that this car was not built for the strip, it was built for the road course. Thats where I prefer to run mine. And those who continue to try and make it into a dragster too often end up following a few paths.
1. End up busting something.
2. End up turning a car which was built for the road course into a car which only travels fast in a staight line. Weirdest thing to see a C5 or C6 Vette with slicks and skinnies on it in effect "dumbing it down" to a car which does only one thing well. Travel quickly in a straight line. The car was never built with that as a single purpose.
3. End up modifying it in an effort to maximize straight line performance and compromising it's drivability.
4. End up busting something.
The original poster said a few things in his first post which raised a red flag for me.
First he was concerned about his 60ft times in a car which was not built and does not have tires on it designed to produce impressive 60ft times.
Secondly, he mentions severe wheel hop, which has described here in gory detail. When I myself was attempting to carry over from my C5 days and turn my C6 into a dragstrip demon, I experienced severe wheel hop on more than one occasion. No doubt in my mind, if I had continued trying to run a set time, I would have long since busted something by now.
Third he alludes to track prep, ie mentions a "crappy track."
Fourth he has another thread out there about the number of attempts one should get during test and tunes, etc.
The above is a recipe for broken driveline parts attempting to flog out what one believes is an "acceptable" 1/4 mile time. 1/4 mile times in a car which was not built as a quarter mile racer don't mean as much to me as they may for you.
1. End up busting something.
2. End up turning a car which was built for the road course into a car which only travels fast in a staight line. Weirdest thing to see a C5 or C6 Vette with slicks and skinnies on it in effect "dumbing it down" to a car which does only one thing well. Travel quickly in a straight line. The car was never built with that as a single purpose.
3. End up modifying it in an effort to maximize straight line performance and compromising it's drivability.
4. End up busting something.
The original poster said a few things in his first post which raised a red flag for me.
First he was concerned about his 60ft times in a car which was not built and does not have tires on it designed to produce impressive 60ft times.
Secondly, he mentions severe wheel hop, which has described here in gory detail. When I myself was attempting to carry over from my C5 days and turn my C6 into a dragstrip demon, I experienced severe wheel hop on more than one occasion. No doubt in my mind, if I had continued trying to run a set time, I would have long since busted something by now.
Third he alludes to track prep, ie mentions a "crappy track."
Fourth he has another thread out there about the number of attempts one should get during test and tunes, etc.
The above is a recipe for broken driveline parts attempting to flog out what one believes is an "acceptable" 1/4 mile time. 1/4 mile times in a car which was not built as a quarter mile racer don't mean as much to me as they may for you.
06-22-2007, 08:33 PM
#33
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Good point in the evolution of this thread to introduce
Vettedogs...our cars have scars, fun episodes....
Ranger
Vettedogs...our cars have scars, fun episodes....
Ranger
06-22-2007, 10:14 PM
#34
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I'm home from work and I just watched the vid. I also watched another vid of you (Ranger) on youtube of a warm up and launch, that was on stock tires, as the run was an 11.22.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y-Fq...elated&search=
1. First of all, the warm up looks exactly like what I used to do w/my F-bods every pass. My car would not do that last night. I have to use the water next time and see what happens, as that is the element that is different between what you are doing and what I'm doing.
2. The traction you got at the start looks astounding. NO WAY would my car do that last night. NO way! Perhaps it's because I didn't get enough heat into them? I never got them to draw smoke b/c of the hop issue.
Here are three vids from last night that I just uploaded to Youtube. You can see/hear how low RPM I'm leaving the line, and the wheel spin.
http://www.youtube.com/v/gQvku3IZbpw
http://www.youtube.com/v/pB0toDnScVA
http://www.youtube.com/v/2pbpvaB3d7k
Any idea how I can post my excel sheet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y-Fq...elated&search=
1. First of all, the warm up looks exactly like what I used to do w/my F-bods every pass. My car would not do that last night. I have to use the water next time and see what happens, as that is the element that is different between what you are doing and what I'm doing.
2. The traction you got at the start looks astounding. NO WAY would my car do that last night. NO way! Perhaps it's because I didn't get enough heat into them? I never got them to draw smoke b/c of the hop issue.
Here are three vids from last night that I just uploaded to Youtube. You can see/hear how low RPM I'm leaving the line, and the wheel spin.
http://www.youtube.com/v/gQvku3IZbpw
http://www.youtube.com/v/pB0toDnScVA
http://www.youtube.com/v/2pbpvaB3d7k
Any idea how I can post my excel sheet?
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 06-22-2007 at 11:15 PM.
06-22-2007, 10:25 PM
#35
Tom: Power to you brother. I'm not a drag racer, but I know some dudes that swear by going to coil overs. Pfadt, etc. Should help your 60' time, no?
Good luck, and we can drive the great American SPORTS CAR any friggin way we want. It makes me laugh when folks 'are just trying to help' by getting irate and snotty. Life is too short to be uptight.
06-22-2007, 10:42 PM
#36
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Good to have the vid out there.
Looked like a good pass, but the other car was stepping on your audio. Happens when two cars are running.
If you have an account with photobucket or a similar site, host the spreadsheet there and embed an image tag with the link in a post.
If your stuck, go to my site and from the form send me an email with the spreadsheet as an attachment. I'll host it for you and send you a link.
Ranger
Looked like a good pass, but the other car was stepping on your audio. Happens when two cars are running.If you have an account with photobucket or a similar site, host the spreadsheet there and embed an image tag with the link in a post.
If your stuck, go to my site and from the form send me an email with the spreadsheet as an attachment. I'll host it for you and send you a link.
Ranger
06-22-2007, 11:33 PM
#37
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Thanks Ranger. All three are up now, and I think you can hear what is going on in the second one the best, as the car I was running against had a 5.26 second head start. 
06-23-2007, 05:54 AM
#38
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I'm not a proponent of off-idle launches, because they generally produce more spin on the clutch-out and less immediate acceleration because of the lower power at the low engagement rpm.
So you might do some experimentation. Changing the launch routine will affect both the 60' and 60'-330' incremental.
Ranger
06-23-2007, 10:35 AM
#39
Team Owner
ou're right, Corrected for the actual of 4400' my time is a 12.5 @114, which is right on the button. Problem is, I know that I can do better. I always have done "better" in other cars, I'm already driving ~1 second faster than any other C6 that shows up at our track, and then there is that 2.2x+ 60' time...that I know just isn't right. My best run so far (at this track) is a 13.02 which converts to a 12.29 @ sea level...and that's on a 2.1x 60' time, in 90+* heat (DA of 6200 IIRC). You can clearly see that even in those conditions, if I can "clean up" my 60' to the tune of 1.9x, I'll have a 12.9x or better. This is my personal goal; to have a 12.99 or better NHRA time slip...at this elevation -basically where I live. That puts me at a corrected 12.26 at sea level -darn close to some of the fastest times for a stock C6.
I've already run a 12.89 at another track near here; same elevation but about 100 miles west of here (Wendover). That coverts to a 12.17. Problem is, that track doesn't use break out of times, or time slips so I don't have "proof". I don't have that time slip and for whatever reason, getting that is important to me.
I've already run a 12.89 at another track near here; same elevation but about 100 miles west of here (Wendover). That coverts to a 12.17. Problem is, that track doesn't use break out of times, or time slips so I don't have "proof". I don't have that time slip and for whatever reason, getting that is important to me.
06-23-2007, 01:01 PM
#40
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Someone requested that we chime in this thread to re-post some information we've posted on this website many times before on what is required to correct wheel-hop/axle tramp of any kind for 1997-2007 Corvettes. We've performed these upgrades here on customers vehicles many times with outstanding success to date, so use the information as you wish if it helps.
Wheel-hop/axle tramp is a direct function of abnormal suspension/drive line wind-up and deflection during acceleration. This condition negatively affects IRS and conventional axle equipped cars the same; however, the IRS drive line is far more inherently prone to this condition overall due to design.
No matter what one would like to believe, there is no "easy", silver-bullet, one-part-fixes-all component that will correct wheel-hop/axle tramp all by itself with 100% success in all applications; however, it requires a combination of a number of small, but critical, incremental suspension upgrades that will eliminate the destructive condition entirely....every time.
1. Coil over shocks with adjustable rebound/compression
2. Correct ride height for the application
3. Correct dynamically adjusted wheel alignment for the application
4. Correct tires for the application
5. Correct tire pressure
6. Polyurethane suspension bushings
We've done all of the above to quite a few of the cars we build here in-house that frequent the drag strips and not a single one of them has ever had wheel hop again...*ever*. It requires a lot of money and work to perform all of these upgrades at once, which most folks don't want to do, but then it takes the same to produce reliable power also and folks do that without a second thought. Unfortunately, adding drive line strength is not as glamorous as adding engine power, so most folks neglect the chassis of the car until something breaks. The downside however, is that fixing broken drive line parts over-and-over-and-over again due to wheel-hop/axle tramp isn't fun/cheap either. You can upgrade the car now or fix it later at a greater expense- Pick your poison....
The other problem is, that most folks never do all of the above upgrades at once either like they should, but rather the opposite to where they think they can try to cheap-out and only just do a couple of them instead to "save money" or because they don't think any of those conditions applies to them or their driving style. They soon find out otherwise..
Then those same folks who have cut corners by skimping on what's actually needed by the car are always scratching their heads later on wondering why their car still wheel-hops anyway, continuously shatters drive line parts over-and-over or they say, "it only wheel-hops a little bit now compared to before, so it's good enough".
*ANY* car that wheel-hops, no matter what brand it is- even a *little bit* is doing it far too much already, as that destructive condition *will* fracture the drive line eventually...it's just a matter of time.
The only way to secure drive line durability over time is to *completely* eliminate wheel-hop altogether as described above. Even a "little" wheel-hop is too much..... If one thinks they can "cheat" physics by only doing one or two of these upgrades "calling it good", than they are fooling themselves and wasting their own time and money, as the wheel-hop issue will *never* completely go away. There are no "gray areas" of what needs to be done to correct it and sometimes, there is only one way to do some things in life right- this is one of them...
JR-CRUZ-IN's low 9.teen's 1/4 mile IRS car is a prime example of an outstanding set-up using the above recommendations and his car's track durability record for years is a testament to that those upgrades do work *very* effectively when combined together in tandem.
No matter what one would like to believe, there is no "easy", silver-bullet, one-part-fixes-all component that will correct wheel-hop/axle tramp all by itself with 100% success in all applications; however, it requires a combination of a number of small, but critical, incremental suspension upgrades that will eliminate the destructive condition entirely....every time.
1. Coil over shocks with adjustable rebound/compression
2. Correct ride height for the application
3. Correct dynamically adjusted wheel alignment for the application
4. Correct tires for the application
5. Correct tire pressure
6. Polyurethane suspension bushings
We've done all of the above to quite a few of the cars we build here in-house that frequent the drag strips and not a single one of them has ever had wheel hop again...*ever*. It requires a lot of money and work to perform all of these upgrades at once, which most folks don't want to do, but then it takes the same to produce reliable power also and folks do that without a second thought. Unfortunately, adding drive line strength is not as glamorous as adding engine power, so most folks neglect the chassis of the car until something breaks. The downside however, is that fixing broken drive line parts over-and-over-and-over again due to wheel-hop/axle tramp isn't fun/cheap either. You can upgrade the car now or fix it later at a greater expense- Pick your poison....
The other problem is, that most folks never do all of the above upgrades at once either like they should, but rather the opposite to where they think they can try to cheap-out and only just do a couple of them instead to "save money" or because they don't think any of those conditions applies to them or their driving style. They soon find out otherwise..
Then those same folks who have cut corners by skimping on what's actually needed by the car are always scratching their heads later on wondering why their car still wheel-hops anyway, continuously shatters drive line parts over-and-over or they say, "it only wheel-hops a little bit now compared to before, so it's good enough".
*ANY* car that wheel-hops, no matter what brand it is- even a *little bit* is doing it far too much already, as that destructive condition *will* fracture the drive line eventually...it's just a matter of time.
The only way to secure drive line durability over time is to *completely* eliminate wheel-hop altogether as described above. Even a "little" wheel-hop is too much..... If one thinks they can "cheat" physics by only doing one or two of these upgrades "calling it good", than they are fooling themselves and wasting their own time and money, as the wheel-hop issue will *never* completely go away. There are no "gray areas" of what needs to be done to correct it and sometimes, there is only one way to do some things in life right- this is one of them...
JR-CRUZ-IN's low 9.teen's 1/4 mile IRS car is a prime example of an outstanding set-up using the above recommendations and his car's track durability record for years is a testament to that those upgrades do work *very* effectively when combined together in tandem.