30YR W8T

Tom, for what ever it is worth, I went through exactly the same things you are talking about trying to get into the 12's with my 05 MN6. Eventual got POed and put on a set of drag radials, launched at 2500 RPM's, had a 2.0-60' and hit a 12.90 @111 MPH. The best speed I have seen so far on this car is 115 MPH's and I was still in the 13teens because of a bad 60' time on run flats. So you may want to give the DR's a try because I have not had any wheel hop using them. As some have stated, wheel hop will break something eventually and that is one of the reasons I installed a strut brace on my car. It did help and gave me some peace of mind. I would pay very close attention to Rangers comments, he has this stuff down to a science.

Tom400CFI

30yr,

That's good advice that I haven't over looked, but I want that <12.99 stock first (at this elevation). Then I'll play w/mods as I can afford them.

I have to ask: what is a "strut brace"? I didn't know that there was a strut on a C6 that needed bracing...

Tom400CFI

Well, I was at our ****ty track again last night. I tried to acomplish what we've talked about here, by backing up to wet my tires and then doing a PROPER brake stand.

I got yelled at by the staging director, and told that I'm not allowed to back up, period. I did a burn out (got minor wheel hop) made my pass. After I walked over to the staging area, and asked the Staging director why I couldn't back up. He said that it's an NHRA rule. I pointed out that this wasn't an NHRA event (it's just "club night") and therefore I ought to be able to back up and wet my tires. We got into a pissing match, he tried to kick me out of the track, which I informed him he had no authority to do, and continued to make runs. Here is rules right from the RMR hand book, which are NOT the same as NHRA rules, by the way:

WATER BOX / BURNOUT AREA: Watch the Staging Director for your signal to pull out for your burnout. If you are not ready you are subject to being disqualified. Do not pull out until you are signaled. All vehicles with street tires are to drive around the water box, no wet burnouts, NO EXCEPTIONS. Burnouts are allowed in the burnout area only. Burnouts are to be done in a forward motion only. No person is allowed to hold or touch vehicle during burnouts. Do not begin your burnout until signaled by the Starting Line Coordinator

On another note, check this out. The following is a copied and pasted email that I sent to the drag strip manager earlier this morning. The email below tells what happened last night, and should clarify what we have to work with here in Utah, drag strip wise. Read on...

Ron,
So last night, my fiancé arrived at right about 7:00 PM to spend time being part of “what I do” at the track. She was denied entrance at the gate by a staff member because she didn’t have a ticket. There was another woman and her child at the gate too, hoping to be w/her husband who was also racing, but she was not allowed to enter either, because she also had just arrived and didn’t have a ticket. So even though these girls are trying to get in to be w/their significant-others’ who are there racing (and have paid), they aren’t allowed in because they don’t have tickets. “Spectator” tickets by the way, are over priced at $15 for this non-event. Now keep in mind, these girls aren’t there to “spectate” they are there to spend time w/us, their significant-others. Now here is the kicker. This is good, so get ready…

Ticket window was closed.

Unbelievable. Let’s break this down. It’s 7:00 PM and 1 and a half rounds are finished. The stands are EMPTY –meaning no one comes out to pay money to watch this “non” event. Short story: There ain’t much to see, and even less to be charging money for. So of course, now I have new questions:

1. Why are we charging wives to be w/their husbands? If they left work early and came with us in the first place, they could come in w/us IN the car, and no one would say a thing about it!
2. Why are we charging $15 for an “event” that no one wants to see? Just give then an arm band and let them in for crying out loud!
3. Do you know how hard it is to get a woman to come out to a place like this? And then have them get jerked around at the gate? Do you think these women will be inclined to come back? Do you think that “I’ll” (“I” meaning any guy w/a girl who faces these ridiculous obstacles) keep coming if my girl won’t ever come again?
4. How is a person supposed to enter the track when: 1. You can’t buy a ticket, and 2. Staff won’t allow entrance w/o a ticket?

This would make a perfect “Dilbert” comic strip.


Thomas Kendrick
Director of Vehicle Maintenance & Trails/Grooming
The Canyons Resort
435-615-3320
435-640-6232

Amazing huh?

What I did learn last night is that if I slip the clutch a lot, starting my burn out, it doesn't "bounce" the drive train and I can get the wheels going w/o hopping. But this is not conducive to doing a brake stand, because by the time I get the clutch all the way out, I'm moving way too fast.

Silverspeed

Let us know what the response to your email is.

SpinMonster

Opinions vary.

These cars have seen well into the 8 second range on a drag track.

Ranger

Given the local rules you must deal with, I'd skip the burnout altogether for the sake of driveline longevity. During the burnout slipping the clutch and hopping whatsoever are violation that can lead to breakage.

The burnout requires some water to get the wheels spinning without trauma and the brakes are a necessary component. Your track seems the wrong place to attempt a burnout.

Ranger

Tom400CFI

I know. With the C6 anyway. As I posted before, my F-bod's used to fire up the tires in second gear w/no water, and no drama.

The next closest track (Vegas) is 6 hours away.

I really wish these guys here would "fix themselves" and offer up services that are useable. I'm never going to get anywhere making 2-3 passes per night at best, no warm-ups, infrequent schedule, etc. How frustrating.

sscamaro

Bilstien Sport shocks should help your wheel hop. They did mine.

Tom400CFI

O.K. It took a while for a response but here they are in order....


From: Doug Binstock [mailto:dbinstock@rmrracing.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 12:57 PM
To: Tom Kendrick; Dragmgrrmr@aol.com
Subject: RE: Club night last night...

Tom,

This ones easy.
I assume you and your wife have cell phones?
Just buy her ticket when you arrive and meet her at the gate with it when she arrives. That way you have no worries about arrival time!

Doug

From: Tom Kendrick [mailto:tkendrick@thecanyons.com]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:28 AM
To: Doug Binstock
Subject: RE: Club night last night...

I suppose. The problem last time was that the “system” in place was different than the last time she came down, and that time was different than the time before that. Basically one of my bullet points in my email to you guys 4 years ago: hitting a moving target.

Anyway, still doesn’t solve the problem of getting her an arm band. Can I get an arm band for her?

I still don’t know why she needs to pay when arriving that late; You know when you go to a club, they have a cover? You know when you go late, they quite selling tickets/cover, b/c there isn’t much left to see? Normally one would expect that if they arrive late, AND the ticket window is CLOSED….they’d just be given and arm band (stamp, or whatever) and let in. I don’t know why I should have to make a plan in advance to cover RMR’s service short coming, PLUS, pay $55.00 to make 2-3 heads-up type, runs (then get eliminated in an event that I don’t care about). Not worth it. L Geez! If the ticket window is closed, you’re already not making money on anyone who shows from then on anyway….just let ‘em in!

So is the final verdict that I need to buy tix in advance, for some one who shows up after the tix window is closed?

Thomas Kendrick
Director of Vehicle Maintenance & Trails/Grooming
The Canyons Resort

From: Doug Binstock [mailto:dbinstock@rmrracing.com]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:04 AM
To: Tom Kendrick
Cc: Dragmgrrmr@aol.com
Subject: RE: Club night last night...

Tom,

I can only do what is economical for us as a business. I can’t spend hundreds of dollars to suit everyone’s individual needs. We staff for the majority and set policies the same way.

You need to figure out how to work within our operating hours….just like going to any other business!

Doug



Doug,

In this case I’m not asking you to “spend hundreds of dollars [on my] individual needs”…it’s already been decided that you’re done collecting revenue, when you close the ticket windows! Furthermore, the lack of any type of apology for my girl getting shut down at the gate (while simultaneously being unable to purchase a ticket) is pretty poor guest service recovery.

My “expectations” of a drag track experience were set years ago at tracks back east, and more recently reinforced by other tracks out west. In my experience, RMR is the anomaly with regard to service offered, user (un)friendliness and passes to cost ratio. I’m certainly not the only person who feels this way either; when I talk to people at auto cross events, MMP, and even at your track, the consensus is pretty clear that RMR isn’t in touch w/the what people (young people at least) want, and that is unfortunate because the facility is so nice, and so local.

I’ve tried to become involved, emailing you some of my ideas that I think would improve service, and profit. The reason why I’ve done this is that I’m invested in this track because I love running my car at a track, “chasing that number”, and you’re the only game in town. Therefore, it behooves me to try to help the track be as good as it can be. Unfortunately, I’ve really gotten no where, and in 10 years of living in Utah, still have not been able to figure out how to run a car down that track, enough times to learn something, for a reasonable price…and with out some type of disorganized hassle.

Doug, one time years ago, in an email to me you said, “It seems as though were always being attacked rather than spoken too. I don't know what it is about this sport but people can be extremely rude and abusive to my staff.”

I’ve witnessed this at your track a lot (though not at any other track) way more than anyone should have, and I’ve even been part of the problem, I’ll admit. Why does this happen? Because the people who go there aren’t getting the “product” that they want. The folks that come out are so personally invested in what they’re doing that they don’t have much room for interference w/their mission (whatever that is for them). Things that I’ve mentioned before to you that “interfere” are:
*Inconsistencies in scheduling, process, and rules,
*Overly complicated processes,
*Poor “bang for the buck”, and mostly
*Rules and processes that defy common sense and reason! (the original subject of this email is a perfect example of this: no way to pay money or/to get into the track)

The whole process for running one’s car there needs to be massively streamlined, and then solidified to be consistent. THAT would seriously cut down on the frequency of altercation between you and your staff. In short, instead of making it “hard” to run a car at RMR, your organization needs to figure out how to make it “easy” and consistent. That way, drivers can focus on their mission at the track: whatever that is for any given person.

I think that ultimately, RMR is just not responsive to the demand of the SLC public, and changes in demography. Unfortunately, until there are changes at RMR I’m simply not going to get what I’ve been looking for at that track. I just need to accept that, and give up on drag-tracking my car until some type of major change occurs. A real shame, in my opinion.

Thanks again for taking the time to write back; that is honorable of you, even if you don’t see the point I make, at least you’ve provided the courtesy of responding, and that counts for a lot. Take care, Doug.


Thomas Kendrick
Director of Vehicle Maintenance & Trails/Grooming
The Canyons Resort

tluck

Didn't help me with BFD drag radials. I'm going to try coil overs next.

Tom400CFI

Last trip to the track last night. (track doen't schedule any more T&T's or anything for the rest of the season -even though weather is favorable).

Here is the data. Clearly, I didn't acheive my goal, even though I was close on my first pass....

http://www.3si.org/forum/attachment....6&d=1189223877

robl45

I thought i read on another thread that when you race, you keep the throttle floored the entire time, is this not true?

cobra-info

Just my opinion but, In the past owning a car with an independent rear suspension that was always wheel hopping I put nitto drag radials on it and the problem was solved 27 psi on the street 14 psi at the track.

Anyone???

You may also have to ditch the bling bling 19's for some 18's out back in order for it to work. I don't know of any tire Co. that is making a DR in 19's...... Just my $.02

cv67

Thats what I was thinking, pretty darn good and with room to spare...

Ranger

Actually that is incorrect. In my C5Zs I often power-shifted the 3-4, but only a few times any of the other shifts. On that car, power-shifting produced wheel spin on the 1-2 and 2-3, except in extraordinary track conditions. That makes the pass slower not faster. I perfected fast shifts that include 100% throttle lift during clutch in.

On the C6Z, I experimented with power-shifting the 3-4 and dropped the approach. On the stock untuned PCM Torque Management reacts badly to power-shifts. And my goal is faster, not slower.

Ranger

Fore58

Good point on the shifting concept, Ranger. Just little things like that makes a difference on your ET.

robl45

Perfect thank you.

GMRULZ

Bilstien sports for z51 mn6 cars. They have helped me w/ stock tires, I still get some hop w/ too agressive a launch, but no where near as bad. You need to go to a track rental where you can perfect your launch and take your time, no rush at rentals. Last track rental I went too I ran 22 times... I got better all day long...

Tom400CFI

I used to w/my F-bodies for sure. WOT the entire time down the track, even during shifts. But Ranger is right here:
I've learned pretty much the same thing: On my car, at my track, any power shift -even the 3-4, results in wheel spin (hop as well on the 1-2 shift), that does nothing but slow my run.

I'm not looking for advice on the wheel hop anymore. I've learned that to do a burn out, I have to release the clutch slower to avoid "shocking" the drive train, then hit the brakes slower too. Wierd, but it works. I've eliminated wheel hop on the 1-2 shift by lifting the throttle and slipping the clutch a bit on release too.

I only posted so others could review the break outs. Like Ranger, I'm showing some possible TM intervention if you compare my first run, w/my last; the last run, I did a longer burn out, and got a better 60' (though still pretty chitty), and then proptly gave up an equal amount from the 60' to the 330'.

For S&G's, here is a vid of my last (5th) run of the night. This was against a '99 C5 LS1 auto, w/a Twin Turbo kit. He was dialed .7 slower than me and I still ran him down.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lS6OQtGLYrM

Tom400CFI

Well dude... I hit it. 5 times in a row, last night...and I haven't broken a thing. But thanks again for all your support!

Anyway, here is a spread sheet, (thanks again to Ranger) that shows last nights results.
EDIT: Fast forward to post #74 for spread sheet

A few observations and questions.
Coolant temps at the start of my runs last night were:
174
185
205
215
216
You'll note that on the right, there is column w/results from last year when I was getting LOW 13's, and bad 60' times. Look at the DA. Also that is in 90*+ temps. Last night, you'll see the DA was ~6000' and temps were in the 60's. -About as good as you ever see in UT.

BUT I didn't run 1 mph faster...IN SPITE of moving my shift points from 6k to 6500 RPM. Doesn't make sense to me.

Also my first pass was an absolute disaster, in real life, though it looks good on paper. I went around the water box, backed into it (w/o getting yelled at), pull out of the box about 4', and proceeded w/my burn out. Immediately got TONS of wheel hop and aborted. Tried again, more hop. Tried a (now) dry hop and got more wheel hop. Pulled up to the line, very disappointed, and staged knowing that I'd have to launch soft, since I didn't get a real warm up. Lunched soft, and after about 40' or so, tire broke loose and....started hopping. I stayed in it b/c I was so pissed and it hopped all the way through 1st! Shifted to 2nd and it hopped 3/4 of the way through 2nd. Hit 3rd (not power shifting BTW), and it' hopped for probably 8 "hops". Hit 4th, and 3 more hops. I KNEW that had to be a 13.5 run...or worse, but you see the time slip was a 12.91, and what's even more focked up is that was on a 1.99 60'...my BEST EVER!???

The rest of my burn outs were smoooooooooooth, fun, effortless and resulted in good traction -even though I used the EXACT same technique! I don't get that either.

So, why w/higher RPM shifts (supposedly better), cooler air did I gain no mph?

Why was my wheel hoppin', crap warm-up run as good or in some aspects better than the others??


Aside from the questions that I "don't get", it was a great night, and I FINALLY achieved the goal I've had for this car since I bought it; run 12's box stock, at this elevation. This puts me a SOLID, 1 second+ ahead of any other C6 I've seen at our local track. Most run low 14's.