gtodoug

Joe, good question. We pulled 1.5 degree of timing out of the 3000-5000 range and had to fatten up the fuel mixture just slightly in a couple areas. Up at the top of the rpm range we pulled a bit of timing as well. That was really it. Jeremy did fix a warm start issue I was occasionaly having as well but that had nothing to do with the tuning.

Jeremy whipped up those changes very quickly and then had to get me off the dyno because his appts were showing up. Otherwise we would have worked on some areas in the lower rpms.

Dougie

gtodoug

And thanks for responding Ed.

johnodrake

You need to ditch the Snake and come back to the Vette - Feel the force

Just to whet your appetite

LS2 heads:



LS3 heads:

Phil97SVT

So basically...
LG headers were 34rwtq more than the AR
ARs were lets say 10-15 more min. than factory(I've dynoed enough to see this

So basically the LG headers were worth 50rwtq over factory?

Why did the car need 24 dyno pulls between a header swap only?

Joe_G

I have to disagree with your comment regarding only 10-15 rwtq from AR compared to stock manifolds. I got 40 rwtq from AR compared to factory manifolds, including tune. I saw similar 30-40 rwtq average gain under the curve numbers from LG, AR and Dynotech headers during my research.

Here's my dyno sheet showing it. Bottom line is stock, mid line is bolt-ons and tune, top line is boltons plus cam. I did have a ported intake on the bolt-on line so that's about 10 of the 40 gain.

SpinMonster

I wish I could dig up the post where you looked at the LG header curve and I swear to God that you said, "Wow look at that TQ curve."

You then bought them. Anyway enough jokes.

The reason a car would have 24 dyno pulls is that the baseline was done and several other cars in a busy shop use the dyno while your car is getting headers installed. Then there are a few pulls made for your car to tune it. If 5 cars were ahead of you it could seem reasonable to have that many pulls. I really dont know....just playing devil's advocate. Actually his post clearly states that he raced home to overlay the two dyno sheets to see the gains/losses and that to me suggests that the dyno's were on two separate days. Just a guess unless he dyno'ed the car and drove that sheet home so he wouldnt lose it and then drove back to get the headers installed and tuned in. Not likely but hey that would support the 24 consecutive dyno pull theory that they did to extract every last TQ out.

The TQ peak on my car wasnt where the 34rwtq over the kooks was seen, it was around 4k rpms. At peak the difference was about 20rwtq.....and yes I have seen LG's make 40rwtq over factory at the TQ peak.

Phil how is it you know when C6 tech post comes out with a header test that involves the AR's? Everytime a guy posts up the gains they get from a mod it pales in comparison to the nerve it strikes when a guy does it for headers. Its like you get called a liar for sharing what you see in the data. Things get twisted and it can never be what it is. There was a lie in there....like it took 24 pulls to manipulate the dyno to beat those nasty companies at a header sale. Why do people care? I had Kooks and thoguht they were great. I got a set because other cars seemed to get great low end TQ. Uncle Lou didnt come to my house and tell me I wouldnt share in the profits from the family business if I didnt doctor up a bunch of tests. I did the tuning and it is what it is. I find it odd that so many people with these headers do so well in the TQ department with the likes of Lingenfelter posting the same gains. I dont care what people think is the motivation...they are definitely better for my car.

How is the baby? Congrats!

SpinMonster

You have a manual transmission right? If so you have the single lowest dynoing car I have seen in the C6 arena. My car was 351 out the gate no tune. If you started down 20 then it stands to reason the car wasnt tuned very well for the base runs. I would compare my car with headers to other cars with headers and not a low side dyno number not in line with 90% of the other ls2's out there. It looks to me like you got 20 and not 40 from the headers taking the baseline's low numbers into account. Also, the 1 7/8's show less TQ than the 1 3/4's so thats a variable too from Doug's car.

Doug thanks for sharing but its a self defeating issue to post the info. Those who have headers just get the threads locked and eveyone is a liar when they say the header they bought had a gain.

mowton

I am sorry, but I think the main point to all this is not being brought to the top. This is not an apples to apples test. This is a test against two different sized products, two different designs, made by two different companies where only one got a chance to participate in the selection, which in my humble opinion would have a rather large influence on the final outcome.

Hope that is politically correct response

Phil97SVT

You completely missed the point of my statement.

So basically the LG headers were worth 50rwtq over factory

SpinMonster

At 4k I would go with that.

Phil97SVT

Let me start by saying that LG sells a great product as well as AR. I get fired up when people spread marketing propangada to sell products to the people that don't know better without knowing all the facts.

Guy,
Hey man long time not talk. All is good here. I wish you could find the post because I don't remember it.

Couple things....
- When a shop dyno's cars they don't dyno under the same file so the 24 runs from start to finish is on this car. When I take my cars back to the local dyno they always start where I ended.

-Honestly I think alot of the gains are in tuning. If you asked me a couple years ago I'd disagree. But knowing what I know now you can gain it through fuel and timing.

SpinMonster

Unless its repeated so many times that companies like 21 century motorsports would be liars too.
Kooks vs LG's: The higher TQ was the LG's. on a 427

Phil97SVT

Guy,
You and I both know that when you see a header test and produce equal power from
3300-4000
and
5800-7000

The flat spot between 4000-5800 is tuning.

SpinMonster

I did the swap on my car and it was tuned to the max before the swap. I was told by Corvettes of Westchester that if I didnt see a gain with the LG's he would take them back. I kept them. It was obvious before the tune and stunning after it. I'm not a liar and you know me. We talked about his stuff on the phone enough. I have heard some people claim that you cant retune when you switch to the LG's from other headers because it would be the tune that makes the gains. Efficient parts require less timing and therefore the tune is altered with any airflow changing mod.

Yes the tune counts but I've seen it too many time to dismiss it. I will do the reverse again here with you and me doing the tune because i have all the time in the world. If the AR's better the LG's I will keep them. I never tried them. Kooks are day and night lower in TQ. I tried everything to get the midband up on them. I dont care what part is on the car, if it makes me faster I keep it. A few peak HP means nothing to me. The sick gains I had with the LG's in the midband were staggering. Why would I keep them if they didnt work for me? What Lou says about the header being the most powerful on earth should be followed by the fact that they are the most expensive on earth too. I wouldnt drop the money on a worse part.

Anyway you know I'm a prostreet fan so I'm not getting into a header war. Everyone posted their info and other can do with it like they please. No one ever changes camp on these threads and only a fool tries to fight the sea.

Take care and congrats again on your lil' boy.

Phil97SVT

You know we eat from the same dinner table so its all good. My little boy says "hey" to you NJ boys hopefully we'll see you guys for a drag radial race before its all over with.

SpinMonster

Point taken on the dyno numbers, I didnt know that. Still another thing I learned from you. Tuning is an art I have been drilling into for the last 2 years and have come a long way so I have to agree. I will call you sometime to catch up. I need some sleep man, I've been up for 2 days.

Take care.

Joe_G

I would agree that LG's are worth 50 over stock manifolds. I would have also state that AR's (or any other header) is worth somewhere between 30-50 over stock manifolds.

I wanted to refute your statement that AR was only worth 10-20 rwtq from stock. That statement is not fair to AR in my opinion and is misleading.

LG Motorsports

Phil,
Why is it considered "Marketing Propaganda" when the numbers come out with the LG's on top?

I never met the owner of this car and he is in florida.

So why would you call a forum member a liar or propagandist? He is a forum member and he got his results the same as anyone.

Our results ALWAYS back up this pattern. Every time, even 1 3/4 to 1 3/4 back to back tests.

Flat spots are not always from tuning. We can move flat spots around with header length and X pipe design. That is how we came up with OUR design by testing.

Isn't your engine is a Solid roller high out put engine that never sees below 5000rpm at the drag strip.

I also remember when you got LG Headers and you could not have been happier with your dyno results.

So Please don't get this thread locked. It is informative and true. the only time words get censored is when someone doesn't want others to hear them.

Thanks and have a great day.

Lou gigliotti

Below is the graph sent to us from another shop with the back to back 1 3/4 to 1 3/4 Comparison: Note, the peak torque was only up 12 but the torque difference at 4000 rpms was about 40 ft lbs And again, the peak power was only off by 1hp but the difference at 4000 is significant and meaningful.

Joe_G

Guy that's actually Doug's car in my stock file. I never dynoed mine stock. Our cars are exactly the same down to the color. Only difference is the top! Those results are pretty on par for what I've seen for stock down on our dynos here in FL. I suspect it's because it's typically 90+ in a shop year round around here and our relative humidity is 80+ year round. I've never seen a stock IAT below 110 or so on the dyno so you know what that does to timing. No dyno correction is going to correct for the 12 degrees of timing that kind of IAT will be pulling. Up north, on a cool day, you might have IAT's of 60 or so, so you will get full timing and thus much stronger baseline numbers. Of course the conservative factory IAT timing correction is the first thing most tuners take care of, thus they get 20 rwhp right off the bat by changing that one table.

It's also my opinion that that IAT timing table is why the vararam works so well down here. I saw .3 and 3 mph myself (from memory, I did a big post with average numbers if someone feels like testing my memory I don't feel like searching).

mowton

Just to clarify, I didn't call anyone a liar...I merely made 2 points to consider:

1) The results are based on 2 different size setups which would have a large influence on the low/mid range performance and would be interested to see if they were the same, what the results would be

2) Was the initial setup recommended like the 2nd setup was (actually gave LG credit)

And I based that on, if the two setups being the same, did make it a "closer race", then the 34 rwtq really wasn't applicable and we would be discussing a different scenario.

Thankfully Lou jumped in, as usual, to help straighten us out. I guess we aren't allowed to think it out on our own! This wasn't about how good or bad his headers are, more about how the the numbers were derived. If he sat back and read the context of the posts, I think he would have to admit that results from a 1 7/8 vs a 1 3/4 realtive to Dougs thread would have an influence and would have liked to gotten some of his insight on that.

I'm out, as usual. they all end the same way

Ed