Electric water pump...How much Horsepower?
#41
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The stock LS2/LS7 water pump flowed 63gpm based on Katech's testing. Brand X electric water pump flowed 18gpm, not 55gpm as advertised. Since it's electric, it's flow is a flat line where a mechanical pump is a curve that increases with RPM. I'm guessing the advertised flow numbers are from directly testing the pump itself into an open bucket. Real world scenario bolted to an engine things are very different. Electric water pumps are for drag racers. In my opinion they are not for street cars and definitely not for road race cars. I doubt they make 1 horsepower more due to the law of conservation of energy as stated before. The engine is driving the alternator that's powering the electric motor. Unless somebody invents a solar-powered electric water pump I'm skeptical of any power gains. You are also spinning an idler pulley, because the belt still goes over the electric water pump.
Just a few thouhts from the Meziere gang. The stock pump definitely will move more water than an electric pump at higher RPMs. It will also demand 15-20 horsepower to do it. our advertised rate of 55 GPM is a free flow rate (zero restriction and open inlet) as is the convention for electric water pumps...check any of the manufacturers. We try very hard to give accurate, non-inflated numbers for our products and let the consumers decide if it is a fit for their application. I know through a typical system our pumps will move about 22 GPM so the above mentioned numbers are in the ball park. For over ten years we have been producing pumps for the street performance market and have stood behind them with a 2 year warranty. There are very few coming back for warranty service and I just received one that was 7 years old with 115,000 miles on it this week. By the way, that was off of a supercharged Ford daily driver. We have successfully cooled up to 600 HP oval track cars - but everything has to be right! Our 42 GPM pumps are being used in a spec series using LS engines (I think they are around 400HP).
#42
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Tom...
I haven't done it yet but because my Trans Temp has never gone over 200 and its down to 180 for the run...
However you can get a small Tranny cooler that mounts in front near your radiator... If you get a trans cooler (about $50-70) be sure to get a STACKED PLATE TYPE it cools much faster and more temp drop than the finned aluminum...
You can do the whole job in 1 hr... Another way is the get a larger transmission finned aluminum pan with a 2 qt larger capacity..
I personally prefer the cooler.. its cheaper & better !!
I haven't done it yet but because my Trans Temp has never gone over 200 and its down to 180 for the run...
However you can get a small Tranny cooler that mounts in front near your radiator... If you get a trans cooler (about $50-70) be sure to get a STACKED PLATE TYPE it cools much faster and more temp drop than the finned aluminum...
You can do the whole job in 1 hr... Another way is the get a larger transmission finned aluminum pan with a 2 qt larger capacity..
I personally prefer the cooler.. its cheaper & better !!
I'm thinking if I need to cool the trans and can get the engine temps down at the same time with the stock pump, that an electric is useless unless some non-supplier can show before and after dyno results that prove 10 HP or more.
#43
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...but wait...there's more
Concerning the "Conservation of energy", katech is also right - they don't "make" horsepower. If your engine has a mechanical pump, that pump will demand 14-20 horsepower at 6500 RPMs to drive the water. If your engine is making 1500 HP (turbo applications and extreme boost pressures) you might need that flow rate and additional block pressure. I agree they are not for EVERY situation and we often move our customers to our mechanical pumps for that reason. But the electric motor takes 1/4 HP versus the 14 HP given to the mechanical pump. It has proven itself in some very demanding situations and we stand by our claim that, for the vast majority of street performance vehicles you will be happy with the results.
Concerning the "Conservation of energy", katech is also right - they don't "make" horsepower. If your engine has a mechanical pump, that pump will demand 14-20 horsepower at 6500 RPMs to drive the water. If your engine is making 1500 HP (turbo applications and extreme boost pressures) you might need that flow rate and additional block pressure. I agree they are not for EVERY situation and we often move our customers to our mechanical pumps for that reason. But the electric motor takes 1/4 HP versus the 14 HP given to the mechanical pump. It has proven itself in some very demanding situations and we stand by our claim that, for the vast majority of street performance vehicles you will be happy with the results.
#44
Race Director
...but wait...there's more
Concerning the "Conservation of energy", katech is also right - they don't "make" horsepower. If your engine has a mechanical pump, that pump will demand 14-20 horsepower at 6500 RPMs to drive the water. If your engine is making 1500 HP (turbo applications and extreme boost pressures) you might need that flow rate and additional block pressure. I agree they are not for EVERY situation and we often move our customers to our mechanical pumps for that reason. But the electric motor takes 1/4 HP versus the 14 HP given to the mechanical pump. It has proven itself in some very demanding situations and we stand by our claim that, for the vast majority of street performance vehicles you will be happy with the results.
Concerning the "Conservation of energy", katech is also right - they don't "make" horsepower. If your engine has a mechanical pump, that pump will demand 14-20 horsepower at 6500 RPMs to drive the water. If your engine is making 1500 HP (turbo applications and extreme boost pressures) you might need that flow rate and additional block pressure. I agree they are not for EVERY situation and we often move our customers to our mechanical pumps for that reason. But the electric motor takes 1/4 HP versus the 14 HP given to the mechanical pump. It has proven itself in some very demanding situations and we stand by our claim that, for the vast majority of street performance vehicles you will be happy with the results.
#45
Melting Slicks
Hey Don, while we have your attention...I believe what Jason is implying is that your EWP will result in such an additional load on the electrical system that any HP savings will be reused (required) to drive the alternator (and the idler pulley). Is this even possible? Where do you get your 1/4 hp figure, is this the additional load on the alternator and/or what's required to drive the idler?
Cheers, Paul.
Cheers, Paul.
#46
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Happy to help. The motor is about 1/4 HP at 12 volts. It requires about 12 amps to run and is independent of engine RPM. That is, at 2000 or 8000 RPM it still requires 12 amps. A mechanical pump will require less than 1 horsepower at idle but at 6000-8000 RPM the load will be quite substantial. One of the original electric WP companies used to claim 20 horsepower. Our back-to-back testing usually nets 11-14 for V8 applications at 6000 RPM. The HP requirement for the idler will vary according to the engine RPM but if you're not driving the impeller and only have the drag of the bearings the loss is MUCH less. Furthermore, when running a stock type pump in an RPM range it was not designed for it can get very inefficient - result can be cavitation. We've seen this in a number of off-road, Baja 1000 style vehicles. Moving them to our LS mechanical with a swept vane impeller design has proven to be a good solution.
#47
Melting Slicks
Thanks Don...so what you're saying is the engine is not going to use up whatever HP is saved turning the MWP to drive the alternator because it needs to produce an additional 12A for EWP. And the idler pulley also ain't gunna eat up any measurable HP, so the net result is approximately 14 more hp.
Cheers, Paul.
Cheers, Paul.
#48
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That's correct. Back in the initial development days, the pump was tested on a chassi dyno first with a mechanical, then to the electric and back to the mechanical. I blieve that was 12 HP.
#49
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Thanks for your comments and explanations, Don. It looks like I'll ask Santa for one of your EWP's for my street-only C6 after all.
#50
Get Some!
One thing you have to understand is that if a mechanical pump pumps X water and an electric pump pumps X water, then the electric is guaranteed to use more power. This is because some electricity will be converted to heat while converting to mechanical. It justs pushes the load to the alternator so now the engine has to work the alternator harder. The only way you would see gains is if the electric pump pumps less at high rpm!!! See "Law of Conservation of Energy" Physics 101.
It saves drag racers HP as the can "turn off" the alternator for the run, so the pump is just running off the battery, and as said they can then run just the pump between runs to cool the engine.
#51
And, even though I did install the EWP, I've never thrown a belt in over 2 years and 20k miles.
#52
Melting Slicks
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I ran a meziere for two years, zero issues, zero problems..car never got over 180 even with 100+ outside temps.Bumper to bumper no issues, city traffic no issues.
#53
Melting Slicks
I guess the "Law of Conservation of Energy" would have more bearing on this particular situation IF both pumps pushed the same amount of coolant at 6500 rpm.
Cheers, Paul.
Cheers, Paul.
#54
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There's just not a lot of incentive to spend $ based on advertising claims. CAI claims of HP gains are a great example.
#55
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Although, so far no one has come forward with the comparitive dyno charts to show where any HP gains exist on an LS motor. I'd even prefer 1/4 mile timeslips (DA corrected, of course) from a regular and consistant racer who switched to an EWP as the only change.
There's just not a lot of incentive to spend $ based on advertising claims. CAI claims of HP gains are a great example.
There's just not a lot of incentive to spend $ based on advertising claims. CAI claims of HP gains are a great example.
HCI (Imports...not a direct corrrelation but 12 HP!) June '06
Muscle Mustangs approx November '06 "Pump the Power"
I'm sure we've done more articles since but haven't kept track of them...
#56
Race Director
everyone always asks, i have seen 2 in the last couple weeks, how about a complete in detail instructions on how to wire it into the c6, specifically the fuel pump wire in the fuse box
#58
Race Director
yes that's what i have, but you should have it for your pump c6 specific without it, i put mine in and a few of my friends did theirs, all had problems with the installation of the plug and play, my tuner told me that piggybacking the clips in the fuse box could cause problems it does stretch the clips 2 in 1 its not a real piggyback, so instructions without would be easier and people can choose, i remember buying your pump and waiting months for the zip product, as you can see fartpipe and c6batmobile have both asked in the last 2 weeks
#59
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See also Vette 2008-"High Volts, Low Temps." This article includes installation instructions including the Zip product. It also includes a dyno before and after graph.