2008 C6 stock LS3 with supercharger...thoughts??
03-03-2011, 03:40 PM
#41
Racer
Thread Starter
Member Since: Nov 2009
Location: Yukon Oklahoma
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These posts are confirming for me what I already suspected... 500hp from a supercharged stock LS3 is a no brainer and easy on the engine. I rarely push my car as I said in the original post...and even then I don't overdo or abuse it.... Just the occasional "stop light challenge" or hard pull onto the freeway or something. I'm really feeling that all of the things done to my C5 in the name of horsepower were a waste. I should have just supercharged it and left everything else alone. I would have had more horsepower than I ended up with, it would have run better day to day, it would have gotten better mileage and I would have been so happy with it that I would still probably have it instead of my new one. I know being an '08 with less than 8,000 miles on her that I should just leave her alone, but I'd like just a little bit more power to be absolutely happy. If she'll still be able to go close to 100,000 miles with no more issues than a stocker, than it seems the way to go to me. I'm just a little "old school" and need to get used to the idea that modern engines can handle this sort of power. Back in the day, I would NEVER have put a blower on a sbc on a Camaro or Corvette without changing to forged EVERYTHING and studding EVERYTHING for fear of making a grenade engine... It seems people are doing that very thing on today's stockers with no issues. Also seems to me that dollar for dollar, the supercharger is the most bang for the buck and I can leave everything else stock to beat..... The arguments here are pretty convincing of that...
03-03-2011, 04:40 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
But, let's think for a second OK? The Corvette is a sportscar: horsepower is what sells it. Why did GM go from 5.7L to 6L to 6.2L to 7L to gain a measly 100hp (C5Z to C6Z)? Why does the ZR-1 cost $110+thousand dollars and has a low compression, fully forged engine? Is everyone at GM just completely clueless and they don't realize you can just slap on a blower atop of a bone stock cast piston motor and make heroic power for over 100,000 miles with no issues?
Just think about that for a second. Because someone is wrong here: either you for believing it, or the Engineering team at GM for not capitalizing on a fantastic business opportunity to make super car power for cheap.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think a S/C is worth every penny. But factory reliability? Ha ha ha. You want factory reliability keep it stock. It'll run for a good while before something breaks (driveline or engine), but 100k miles? That is very unlikely. Half of that maybe, if you drive it carefully.
Last edited by PowerLabs; 03-03-2011 at 04:42 PM.
03-03-2011, 04:54 PM
#43
Pro
Supercharged Corvettes are fantastic cars, no doubt. I have one and I love it.
But, let's think for a second OK? The Corvette is a sportscar: horsepower is what sells it. Why did GM go from 5.7L to 6L to 6.2L to 7L to gain a measly 100hp (C5Z to C6Z)? Why does the ZR-1 cost $110+thousand dollars and has a low compression, fully forged engine? Is everyone at GM just completely clueless and they don't realize you can just slap on a blower atop of a bone stock cast piston motor and make heroic power for over 100,000 miles with no issues?
Just think about that for a second. Because someone is wrong here: either you for believing it, or the Engineering team at GM for not capitalizing on a fantastic business opportunity to make super car power for cheap.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think a S/C is worth every penny. But factory reliability? Ha ha ha. You want factory reliability keep it stock. It'll run for a good while before something breaks (driveline or engine), but 100k miles? That is very unlikely. Half of that maybe, if you drive it carefully.
But, let's think for a second OK? The Corvette is a sportscar: horsepower is what sells it. Why did GM go from 5.7L to 6L to 6.2L to 7L to gain a measly 100hp (C5Z to C6Z)? Why does the ZR-1 cost $110+thousand dollars and has a low compression, fully forged engine? Is everyone at GM just completely clueless and they don't realize you can just slap on a blower atop of a bone stock cast piston motor and make heroic power for over 100,000 miles with no issues?
Just think about that for a second. Because someone is wrong here: either you for believing it, or the Engineering team at GM for not capitalizing on a fantastic business opportunity to make super car power for cheap.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think a S/C is worth every penny. But factory reliability? Ha ha ha. You want factory reliability keep it stock. It'll run for a good while before something breaks (driveline or engine), but 100k miles? That is very unlikely. Half of that maybe, if you drive it carefully.
Based on your power goals, I would stay NA. Have you thought about spray? A 75 or 100 wet shot will give you that once in awhile spirited driving you are looking for. With 200 foot lbs of torque, you would be faster than a down tuned SC. You also dont have to worry about belts, 100lbs of weight added to the nose of your car, and IAT issues. A 10lb bottle would give you 25-30 hits in 2nd and 3rd gear pulls. I would guess a N2O setup with window switch, bottle warmer, WOT switch, and install/tune would be around $1400. That is 5k worth of nitrous to buy. As said before, any modification increase risk and decreases the life of the motor.
03-03-2011, 05:25 PM
#44
Racer
Thread Starter
Member Since: Nov 2009
Location: Yukon Oklahoma
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now, I don't know that I totally agree with this stance.. Here's why...
GM, like any other car manufacturer, needs to warranty the cars they sell. Now, knowing that a lot of people are going to put a performance-based car through its paces, they HAVE to have the extra protection built into the engine or be prepared to lose money in the long run. After all, stupid people buy the cars too....money doesn't always equal smart, especially about cars/engines. They are banking that my drivetrain in my car will last 100,000 miles or five years and that they will not have to do any major work to it. If they go up in perceived performance and actual horsepower, people will run them harder I think (think guy that buys the stock coupe vs. the guy who pennies up for a Z06)... They still offer a warranty on these cars and they NEED to overbuild them for additional protection against people running them hard. With that being said, my original thought is that if I don't run the hell out of the engine and don't abuse it, the occasional application of the additional horsepower should have little more impact on the engine than the way I run it already. Sure, even running my stocker hard, as in wot (and let's face it, a lot of Vette owners NEVER even actually do this!!) I could break something... But going up a little over 100hp (which can very nearly be done with just a tune, headers, cai and catback) I don't think I'd really be pushing the envelope. Again, my target is around 500hp max and I'd probably be happy with 480 or so considering how my C5 performed at 409rwhp... My goal is to gain this horsepower with as few changes to the stock setup as possible. This way, if I decide to sell her in a few years because I can finally afford the C7, I can just remove and sell the supercharger and just put the C6 back to stock in a jiffy to trade her in. I just learned the hard lesson that a modified Vette is worth less in a trade than a plain jane low mileage stocker. In fact, I found it funny because the more I talked about all the aftermarket goodies in my C5, the more "lost in space" the sales manager looked!! He just followed me up by saying, "so it's a good car and not a piece of junk, right??".. Too funny. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. I'm not saying forged components wouldn't be the safest way to go as this would just be lunacy..but, I AM saying that the additional power I'm wanting shouldn't REQUIRE forged components to still give me good service and reasonable longevity. 100, 000 miles was what GM was willing to warranty on this car... Do I expect that even from a stocker?? Of course not. If I wanted that, I'd have bought a *** import car (don't be hating or snob-ish!! I love my current Vette and every one I've owned, but face it...the imports have a far better rep for longevity). If I get a reasonable number of miles and get the performance where I want it, I'll be a happy guy. After all, I'm a nurse and I know that eating steak and other crap can trim years off of my life, but even with that, it's the QUALITY and not the QUANTITY that counts, right?? That's why we eat junk, drink alcohol, skydive, drive ridiculously fast cars, etc... If she loses 20% of her life span but packs 500hp...it'll be worth it
GM, like any other car manufacturer, needs to warranty the cars they sell. Now, knowing that a lot of people are going to put a performance-based car through its paces, they HAVE to have the extra protection built into the engine or be prepared to lose money in the long run. After all, stupid people buy the cars too....money doesn't always equal smart, especially about cars/engines. They are banking that my drivetrain in my car will last 100,000 miles or five years and that they will not have to do any major work to it. If they go up in perceived performance and actual horsepower, people will run them harder I think (think guy that buys the stock coupe vs. the guy who pennies up for a Z06)... They still offer a warranty on these cars and they NEED to overbuild them for additional protection against people running them hard. With that being said, my original thought is that if I don't run the hell out of the engine and don't abuse it, the occasional application of the additional horsepower should have little more impact on the engine than the way I run it already. Sure, even running my stocker hard, as in wot (and let's face it, a lot of Vette owners NEVER even actually do this!!) I could break something... But going up a little over 100hp (which can very nearly be done with just a tune, headers, cai and catback) I don't think I'd really be pushing the envelope. Again, my target is around 500hp max and I'd probably be happy with 480 or so considering how my C5 performed at 409rwhp... My goal is to gain this horsepower with as few changes to the stock setup as possible. This way, if I decide to sell her in a few years because I can finally afford the C7, I can just remove and sell the supercharger and just put the C6 back to stock in a jiffy to trade her in. I just learned the hard lesson that a modified Vette is worth less in a trade than a plain jane low mileage stocker. In fact, I found it funny because the more I talked about all the aftermarket goodies in my C5, the more "lost in space" the sales manager looked!! He just followed me up by saying, "so it's a good car and not a piece of junk, right??".. Too funny. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. I'm not saying forged components wouldn't be the safest way to go as this would just be lunacy..but, I AM saying that the additional power I'm wanting shouldn't REQUIRE forged components to still give me good service and reasonable longevity. 100, 000 miles was what GM was willing to warranty on this car... Do I expect that even from a stocker?? Of course not. If I wanted that, I'd have bought a *** import car (don't be hating or snob-ish!! I love my current Vette and every one I've owned, but face it...the imports have a far better rep for longevity). If I get a reasonable number of miles and get the performance where I want it, I'll be a happy guy. After all, I'm a nurse and I know that eating steak and other crap can trim years off of my life, but even with that, it's the QUALITY and not the QUANTITY that counts, right?? That's why we eat junk, drink alcohol, skydive, drive ridiculously fast cars, etc... If she loses 20% of her life span but packs 500hp...it'll be worth it
Supercharged Corvettes are fantastic cars, no doubt. I have one and I love it.
But, let's think for a second OK? The Corvette is a sportscar: horsepower is what sells it. Why did GM go from 5.7L to 6L to 6.2L to 7L to gain a measly 100hp (C5Z to C6Z)? Why does the ZR-1 cost $110+thousand dollars and has a low compression, fully forged engine? Is everyone at GM just completely clueless and they don't realize you can just slap on a blower atop of a bone stock cast piston motor and make heroic power for over 100,000 miles with no issues?
Just think about that for a second. Because someone is wrong here: either you for believing it, or the Engineering team at GM for not capitalizing on a fantastic business opportunity to make super car power for cheap.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think a S/C is worth every penny. But factory reliability? Ha ha ha. You want factory reliability keep it stock. It'll run for a good while before something breaks (driveline or engine), but 100k miles? That is very unlikely. Half of that maybe, if you drive it carefully.
But, let's think for a second OK? The Corvette is a sportscar: horsepower is what sells it. Why did GM go from 5.7L to 6L to 6.2L to 7L to gain a measly 100hp (C5Z to C6Z)? Why does the ZR-1 cost $110+thousand dollars and has a low compression, fully forged engine? Is everyone at GM just completely clueless and they don't realize you can just slap on a blower atop of a bone stock cast piston motor and make heroic power for over 100,000 miles with no issues?
Just think about that for a second. Because someone is wrong here: either you for believing it, or the Engineering team at GM for not capitalizing on a fantastic business opportunity to make super car power for cheap.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think a S/C is worth every penny. But factory reliability? Ha ha ha. You want factory reliability keep it stock. It'll run for a good while before something breaks (driveline or engine), but 100k miles? That is very unlikely. Half of that maybe, if you drive it carefully.
03-03-2011, 05:45 PM
#45
A similiar type discussion is going on over on the FI Forum. Thought I'd drag over a couple of quotes from guys who have more than a "sample size of one" or the "sample size of none" as their frame of reference.
The problem with posing a question such as this is that the regular guy who installed a system and just drives it, isn't constantly looking for more power, isn't hanging around the FI section every day.
I have LOTS of customers who have been going for years. (like 5 years or more) It's a VERY VERY small minority who have engine problems. Those are just the ones you hear about.
Who posts that my engine DIDN'T break?
If you don't push the envelope, there's absolutely no reason for the engine to break, EVER.
I have LOTS of customers who have been going for years. (like 5 years or more) It's a VERY VERY small minority who have engine problems. Those are just the ones you hear about.
Who posts that my engine DIDN'T break?
If you don't push the envelope, there's absolutely no reason for the engine to break, EVER.
Well said Andy, the highest mileage customers here that I can think of are C5's since obviously they are older. One of them we installed our procharger kit on his car at 105,000 miles, the car now has over 225,000 miles and came back for a cam and methanol injection and a roll bar. (against our recommendation, but is still going strong, and that was 6-8 months ago) The car has had a trans rebuilt, but is on the stock engine still.
The second one that comes to mind is Shawn/2003VETTE on CF, who has now serpassed 1200 1/4 passes on his ECS Paxton kit/cam/alky. He was the very first customer to have a Paxton installed when we made the switch away from ATI, and has won the entire race series of our PRO 10.50 class last season, and has came very close during the last few years to other class wins. I'm not sure of the mileage during that time, but 1200 passes is pretty impressive to me, let alone it holds the record for the fastest stock bottom end LS1 @ 9.75/142, so this car is no slouch either.
.
The second one that comes to mind is Shawn/2003VETTE on CF, who has now serpassed 1200 1/4 passes on his ECS Paxton kit/cam/alky. He was the very first customer to have a Paxton installed when we made the switch away from ATI, and has won the entire race series of our PRO 10.50 class last season, and has came very close during the last few years to other class wins. I'm not sure of the mileage during that time, but 1200 passes is pretty impressive to me, let alone it holds the record for the fastest stock bottom end LS1 @ 9.75/142, so this car is no slouch either.
.
03-03-2011, 06:15 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
Now, I don't know that I totally agree with this stance.. Here's why...
GM, like any other car manufacturer, needs to warranty the cars they sell. Now, knowing that a lot of people are going to put a performance-based car through its paces, they HAVE to have the extra protection built into the engine or be prepared to lose money in the long run. After all, stupid people buy the cars too....money doesn't always equal smart, especially about cars/engines. They are banking that my drivetrain in my car will last 100,000 miles or five years
GM, like any other car manufacturer, needs to warranty the cars they sell. Now, knowing that a lot of people are going to put a performance-based car through its paces, they HAVE to have the extra protection built into the engine or be prepared to lose money in the long run. After all, stupid people buy the cars too....money doesn't always equal smart, especially about cars/engines. They are banking that my drivetrain in my car will last 100,000 miles or five years
You can believe anything you want to believe but always be sure to ask the question: "does this make sense"
Are we outsmarting everyone who designed this car, or are we simply making a reliability compromise tha they could never make
03-04-2011, 10:39 AM
#48
Safety Car
I recall a few people with stock C6 manifolds having cat failures on S/C cars. My guess is that LS9 cats are not the same as the LS3. If I were supercharging an otherwise stock car and not running headers, I'd look into swapping to LS7 manifolds and cats or the set-up used on the ZR1.
03-04-2011, 06:15 PM
#49
Racer
Thread Starter
Member Since: Nov 2009
Location: Yukon Oklahoma
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good advice ragtop.... I'm finding the same issues with others in posts I've seen. I'm not really opposed to changing from stock, I just want to keep it to a minimum given my previous C5 fiasco... Thanks for the tip...
03-04-2011, 06:48 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
Blew out my stock ls3 cats in less than 2k miles. Want to see the difference? The first dyno is with blown cats and with running more timing and leaner. We replaced the stock cats, pulled timing, and made the tune richer, and still got more power. My guess is with the same tune, I lost 40-50hp with blown cats. Also, look at how the car falls flat on its face and the powerband shifted with blown cats. I'm replacing the cats this week with headers to see what gains I get.
Bottom line, you can't run boost with stock cats. I thought my car was fine until we strapped it down.
Bottom line, you can't run boost with stock cats. I thought my car was fine until we strapped it down.
03-04-2011, 07:05 PM
#51
Premium Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5/6/7 609-752-0321
Posts: 23,313
Received 1,084 Likes
on
656 Posts
You had an unfortunate situation, but I persoanlly do not agree with that statement. A major part of cat failure is in the tune, and out of 100's of cars we have supercharged over the years, I have had one stock cat fail here, and that happened on the road course.
03-04-2011, 07:36 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
For what it's worth my cats are still going strong after over 40,000 miles on boost. The engine blew up at 30k, but the cats are fine.
These are aftermarket cats on arh headers.
These are aftermarket cats on arh headers.
03-04-2011, 08:06 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
Interesting, Doug. I've heard a lot of people in Houston blowing there stock cats on boosted cars from the 3 big tuners here.
I'll be interested to see if 1-2k miles blew out the replacement ones when I take them off this week.
I'll be interested to see if 1-2k miles blew out the replacement ones when I take them off this week.
03-05-2011, 09:47 AM
#55
Drifting
ill tell you rnbiker.. i was in the SAME position as you only a few weeks ago.
I went with an ECS kit on my 08 ls3 which is FULLY stock. I was looking to break 550ish rwhp as well/... with the nice cool weather it came back at 590rwhp/590rwtq
So you are def on target if not even very LOW for a base supercharger kit.
As far as driveability... besides getting 4mpg MORE then I was before... the throttle is only like 2% more touchy at like 2k rpm (prolly because of the 400lb tq) but otherwise stock
I say GO FOR IT!!! you will need to relearn how to drive lol but so far its well worth it for me!! (plus a proper tune is key for not making your engine go boom)
and ps read the reason WHY some of these guys engines exploded.... one guy the BAP was turned OFF completely ... and he wonders if it was his engines time.... no it wasnt... but someone messed with her car and not enough fuel = lean= boom thats not a superchargers fault!
pss yes it will slowly kill your engine but driving decently i think it will be worth your time.
I went with an ECS kit on my 08 ls3 which is FULLY stock. I was looking to break 550ish rwhp as well/... with the nice cool weather it came back at 590rwhp/590rwtq
So you are def on target if not even very LOW for a base supercharger kit.
As far as driveability... besides getting 4mpg MORE then I was before... the throttle is only like 2% more touchy at like 2k rpm (prolly because of the 400lb tq) but otherwise stock
I say GO FOR IT!!! you will need to relearn how to drive lol but so far its well worth it for me!! (plus a proper tune is key for not making your engine go boom)
and ps read the reason WHY some of these guys engines exploded.... one guy the BAP was turned OFF completely ... and he wonders if it was his engines time.... no it wasnt... but someone messed with her car and not enough fuel = lean= boom thats not a superchargers fault!
pss yes it will slowly kill your engine but driving decently i think it will be worth your time.
03-05-2011, 01:35 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
besides getting 4mpg MORE then I was before...
and ps read the reason WHY some of these guys engines exploded.... one guy the BAP was turned OFF completely ... and he wonders if it was his engines time.... no it wasnt... but someone messed with her car and not enough fuel = lean= boom thats not a superchargers fault!
pss yes it will slowly kill your engine but driving decently i think it will be worth your time.
and ps read the reason WHY some of these guys engines exploded.... one guy the BAP was turned OFF completely ... and he wonders if it was his engines time.... no it wasnt... but someone messed with her car and not enough fuel = lean= boom thats not a superchargers fault!
pss yes it will slowly kill your engine but driving decently i think it will be worth your time.
Or why the ZR1 has to pay gas guzzler tax. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the DIC calculating fuel consumption based on injector duty cycle and the larger injectors we run because of added fuel consumption on boost FYI mine just broke. No det, no bad fuel, no failed BAP, and it was very well tuned by the same guy that tuned your car. The piston ring land simply fatigued and broke off; that stuff just happens...
03-05-2011, 02:56 PM
#57
...it "just broke"...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there is probably some correlation between beating the crap out of your car all of the time and how long you can expect it to last..mod'd or not.
03-05-2011, 03:41 PM
#58
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
That said, they make the exhaust quieter than a cat less exhaust and there is no smell. I couldn't stand cat less exhaust, and I'm very happy running cats.
03-05-2011, 03:45 PM
#60
Le Mans Master
No point in having the power and not using it. To each, their own though.