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seem to say don't use the TR6. If you want a DIC message after 1500 miles, use the TR6. If you want to be trouble free, use the LS9 plug if you have FI.
seem to say don't use the TR6. If you want a DIC message after 1500 miles, use the TR6. If you want to be trouble free, use the LS9 plug if you have FI.
Ya'll have a nice day now,
Elmer
Ok Elmer. You continue to base your decisions off threads on a forum and I will continue to base mine off personal experience.
Ok Elmer. You continue to base your decisions off threads on a forum and I will continue to base mine off personal experience.
Ok, I will continue to base my information off of threads on a forum and my personal experience. I have FI, I used TR6, I got the message on my DIC, I put in the AC 41-104 and the message went away.
I guess my decisions can count too since I experienced the issue?
Ok, I will continue to base my information off of threads on a forum and my personal experience. I have FI, I used TR6, I got the message on my DIC, I put in the AC 41-104 and the message went away.
I guess my decisions can count too since I experienced the issue?
No problem, carry on!
Elmer
You can do whatever you like. I use the TR6 or BR7EF plugs for a reason and I didn't come to that decision from reading a thread or a DIC message.
Coincidently it's been about 1 year since my E-Force install with NGK TR6 plugs and MSD wires with zero issues. I just started in the last couple of weeks to get the "Check Charging System" message. It's been about 5K miles since the install with no issues but now happens every time I idle and the battery voltage is in the range of 12.5 to 12.9 volts so there should be no warning message. Also, the battery is new and the charging system has a charging voltage of 14.3-14.5 so I don't see that as an issue.
It looks like I will also change the plugs to the AC41-104 as that looks like the easiest first step to a fix. Thanks everyone for the heads-up.
Just ordered them, I will post the results to see if this actually solves my problem.
This gentleman seems to be having a DIC message that appears to be annoying. When he changes the plugs and responds (one way or the other) can we count that as another opinion on the TR6?
I don't want to argue. This stupid issue does not happen in all of our cars (I don't know why that is) but it does affect enough of the cars to be a topic of value. If your car gets no message, great, use the TR6 but if you get a "Check Charging System" there must be a reason ...
If I was to run an iridium plug it wouldn't be a delco. As I said before though you can do whatever you like. There are quite a few variables that are unknown between all of these cars that are either ok or have a problem.
Spark Plugs heat range 6:
TR6: 4177 (Mostly used in GM's. Comes pre-gapped around .038 and most often used in low boost supercharger, low boost turbo, small nitrous shot, and strong n/a tuning on 91 octane and less)
BKR6E-11: 2756
LZTR6AIX-13: 2315 (Chrysler spark plug. Commonly used in Jeep 3.8L supercharged)
Spark Plugs heat range 7:
BP7EFS: 3526 (Mostly used in GM's. Comes pre-gapped around .028 and is most often used in higher boost and nitrous applications. For those running high compression and trying to get by on 91 octane this plug may be a good option. This plug is very similar to the TR6 except heat range and base gap.)
BR7EF: 3346 (Mostly used in GM's. Comes pre-gapped around .028 and is most often used in higher boost and nitrous applications. For those running high compression and trying to get by on 91 octane this plug may be a good option. The key to this plug is the non-projected tip.)
AC Delco 41-104: 12571165 (This is the spark plug that comes in the LSA and LS9's. If you want to use an iridium spark plug and run a supercharger this is the spark plug to use). NGK equivalent would be the TR7ix
Thanks, great info where did you get it?
These are also the same plugs for a LS7. This is not a forced induction car and should have peak cylinder pressures similar to an LS2/3.
OK here is what they came back with after consulting GM engineers along with a few ecu experts who engineer the gm stuff:
I have a short list of problems that could cause this code( points 1-3 are probably less likely, and I feel that Point 4 is the real cause:
1. Electrical System corrosion- primarily noted on the 4 pin connector on the back of the alternator. Which could cause a voltage drop, from the commanded voltage to the alternator from the ECU.( I’ve attached a P0621 diagnostics file from GM.)
2. Possible bad battery( cell) or faulty alternator
3. Aftermarket ignition wires #1 cylinder lead is too close to the alternator causing some sort of interference issue.
4. So the Original spark plugs are Iridium/ Platinum precious metal spark plugs. When switching to the TR5/TR6, which are nickel, the ignition system actually works harder. Traditional Nickel center electrodes require more voltage to fire than a precious metal Iridium/ Platinum, simply because of the center electrode diameter. Next is the coil design: There’s the primary and secondary winding in these coils ( as in most coils)and GM set it up so that between firings of the spark plug there would be a voltage reserve within the coil. Now when you install the Nickel TR5/TR6, that voltage reserve is completely spent on firing the plug every time. This if normal for higher RPMS. At idle the demand voltage is much higher than what the alternator is being commanded to put out. The vehicle is programmed to have the least amount of drag at idle to help keep fuel consumption to a minimum and to not rob the engine of horsepower at idle. So the voltage demand from the coils is more than the output of the alternator and is causes the P0621 code trip at idle. If you want to continue using the TR5/TR6 plugs there are a few ways to fix the problem:
1. Go into the programming and command the alternator to generator more voltage at idle. This can be done with aftermarket laptop tuning software( HP Tuners, EFI Live, etc.
2. Delete the code from the ECU altogether so it is not triggered at idle.
Lastly I would encourage you to try the Iridium IX spark plugs. TR5IX/ TR6IX. This may also solve the problem. I also have found that not all GM models have a problem with this code after installing Nickel plugs. It’s just some of them.
We do offer tr6IX plugs as well as the ac delco 41-110 and will now stock the ac delco 41-104
Great info, thanks! It now makes sense why I am starting to have the "check charging system" message after 5K miles with the TR6 previously with no issues. If your Vette is borderline to begin with, it does take more voltage to fire the same plugs with increased mileage and it gets to the point where it triggers the charging system alarm.
OK here is what they came back with after consulting GM engineers along with a few ecu experts who engineer the gm stuff:
We do offer tr6IX plugs as well as the ac delco 41-110 and will now stock the ac delco 41-104
So, bottom line, the nickle plug voltage requirement is the core issue to the TR6 problem. If you get the DIC message then use the Iridium aftermarket plugs or use the LS9 AC 41-104 OR you can program the ECM for more voltage at idle OR you can just block the code (not really a good solution).
Thank you for chasing that out. I think it answers the question on the TR6 and the DIC message.
Thank you for chasing that out. I think it answers the question on the TR6 and the DIC message.
Elmer[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. Tune the car and have no issues regardless of plug choice. (not delete the code). The reason I and many others like to run a TR6 or other non iridium plug especially on FI applications is because it is more forgiving and plug damage will occur before piston damage in most cases. If you are stock there is nothing wrong with stock plugs. I also suspect the higher idle speed those of us with cams run makes the issue less prevalent and in turn those that run an under drive pulley with the stock idle speed will likely see more issues.
These are also the same plugs for a LS7. This is not a forced induction car and should have peak cylinder pressures similar to an LS2/3.
I found the info on a car tech forum(not LS1 tech), it was a sticky from a moderator. I originally researched the plugs almost a year ago right after my cam install..
Hey everyone. I saw this thread last week and read into it. I have a heavy modded N/A LS2... look at sig for details. I was still using stock LS1 plugs.
Took the plugs out today and they were fouled and looked like crap, just like the previous pair from last year. Swapped them for "C6 Z06" plugs AC Delco Professional Iridium plugs part # 41-104.
First impressions:
Idle is more consistant
Less vibration from the heavy cam (better manners)
Seemingly more "quiet" idle... still loud but also better mannered
On the drive:
A bit lighter feeling throttle (maybe more responsive)
Overall, totally sweet and I'm glad I did it. Took me 45 minutes in the driveway... probably 15 of that spent on the inside driver side plug, that one is a PITA.
Bottom line, if you're in Z06 horsepower territory, use Z06 parts.
BTW: I posted on another thread about Bosch... total freakin garbage in a Vette. I was backfiring like Uncle Buck when I installed Bosch 4 tip platinum plugs. They don't give a complete burn. If my car wasn't busy ruining my $550 cats, I bet flames would have shot out the exhaust. My lesson learned and experience to share with you all.
The 41-104 are also the plugs used in the LS9. They are 1 step colder and gapped tighter. The LS9 is supercharged.
I use the 41-104s in my car. It is supercharged. The plugs idle smooth, and have caused no issues.
I'm really tired of this debate. The TR6 is NOT plug and play for all the FI Corvettes. NGK recommends you use the TR5IX/ TR6IX for FI cars. The TR6 might require a voltage increase during idle conditions to be set via ECM tuning. When people get the DIC message, they either need to tune or change the damn plugs, period.
The 41-104 are also the plugs used in the LS9. They are 1 step colder and gapped tighter. The LS9 is supercharged.
I use the 41-104s in my car. It is supercharged. The plugs idle smooth, and have caused no issues.
I'm really tired of this debate. The TR6 is NOT plug and play for all the FI Corvettes. NGK recommends you use the TR5IX/ TR6IX for FI cars. The TR6 might require a voltage increase during idle conditions to be set via ECM tuning. When people get the DIC message, they either need to tune or change the damn plugs, period.
Elmer
Just set the idle at 700rpms and run any plug you wish. I've never had an issue in 5yrs running TR6 plugs (gapped @ .035) with idle programed above 650.
In a FI car I prefer to change the plugs and oil much more frequently.
At $2/plug for TR6's it's cheap to swap them out frequently. I also like to frequently monitor the plug burn.
I am running the LS3 in the Camaro with the TVS2300 and I used the LS9 spark plugs. All seems well! I would definitely agree with FI = LS9 spark plugs!
__________________ Phone: 484-334-8833 Owner of CULTRAG Performance
Coincidently it's been about 1 year since my E-Force install with NGK TR6 plugs and MSD wires with zero issues. I just started in the last couple of weeks to get the "Check Charging System" message. It's been about 5K miles since the install with no issues but now happens every time I idle and the battery voltage is in the range of 12.5 to 12.9 volts so there should be no warning message. Also, the battery is new and the charging system has a charging voltage of 14.3-14.5 so I don't see that as an issue.
It looks like I will also change the plugs to the AC41-104 as that looks like the easiest first step to a fix. Thanks everyone for the heads-up.
Just ordered them, I will post the results to see if this actually solves my problem.
The plugs are installed and I no longer get the "Service Charging System" message as I'm idling with the fans going full blast which was happening daily. I also noticed that the charging system can now keep up with the fan current draw during idle which it didn't do before. The battery voltage would drop below 12 VDC if I idled for an extended time, now it stays at 13+ VDC at idle. Another observation is that the max charging voltage which had increased to 14.6 VDC after the NGK TR6 install is now is at 14.3 VDC max, right where it was at before the SC and TR6 plug install. Note that the only difference is the plug change.
All in all, the non-iridium plugs do have an effect on the charging system as outlined in Forum member 99blancoss's post as everything now works as it did before my SC/TR6 install. For those that prefer a NGK plug, they do make a iridium version, the TR6IX.
For your reference, info from GM Engineering from that post,
"4. So the Original spark plugs are Iridium/ Platinum precious metal spark plugs. When switching to the TR5/TR6, which are nickel, the ignition system actually works harder. Traditional Nickel center electrodes require more voltage to fire than a precious metal Iridium/ Platinum, simply because of the center electrode diameter. Next is the coil design: There’s the primary and secondary winding in these coils ( as in most coils)and GM set it up so that between firings of the spark plug there would be a voltage reserve within the coil. Now when you install the Nickel TR5/TR6, that voltage reserve is completely spent on firing the plug every time. This if normal for higher RPMS. At idle the demand voltage is much higher than what the alternator is being commanded to put out. The vehicle is programmed to have the least amount of drag at idle to help keep fuel consumption to a minimum and to not rob the engine of horsepower at idle. So the voltage demand from the coils is more than the output of the alternator and is causes the P0621 code trip at idle."
04-25-2012, 02:54 PM
