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All of the above options with the respective tuning, of course.
I know this subject has been discussed over and over, seen most, if not all related threads. But I haven't seen a whole lot of recent information on the topic. Yes, I have done a good amount of searches and research but it is still not very clear. I know that most people will recommend the standard and "logic" progression of CAI and headers first, then the cam, maybe intake manifold and finally graduate to the supercharger. All of these mods have pros and cons, (price, issues, driveability, lifespan, fuel economy, etc) not one is 100% a clear choice to improve performance and there are way too many opinions, I read them all. I want to hear from people that went straight to the cam or to the supercharger without the supporting mods. Most professionals agree that the LS3 is a great engine with great intake and great exhaust that a better cam would make the engine come alive.
I am not looking for more opinions or friendly advice, looking for the scientific approach and the back up data. I would like to hear mostly from people with real world numbers and data. I know that a cam only doesn't mean that, it means with the supporting mods. There are several reputable shops offering cam packages regardless supporting mods and they claim some excellent numbers.
So here is the basic equation; LS3 bone stock engine, Z51 with just he factory npp exhaust. Horse power gains with a decent CAI, Headers and a tune seem to be consistent at about 40 rwhp.
What is a realistic number for a half way cam (not mild but not the most aggressive) and a tune but with everything else stock? No supporting mods! Just a good header and a good tune!
What are the realistic numbers for a decent supercharger (again not the cheapest but not the top of the line) and the respective tune? without any supporting mods, just the supercharger.
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Depends on how you want the car to drive, how much power, and what you are going to do with it.
LS3 cars
H/C/I/H (Heads/cam/intake/headers)
If you want light weight, quick reving, autoX/road course use...this is my personal suggestion. It doesn't add any weight, and most of the time will remove it. There is less effect on the cooling system because you are just adding HP, not blocking the radiator with a big blower intercooler in front of it. The car is going to be more balanced over all and generally less expensive to do (depending on options). Power increase can be as low as 40-50 (cam/headers/cai) or as much as 120 to the tires again depending on options picked. There is generally going to be some livability changes to the car based on the cam but power should be pretty linear
Centri blower (A&A, Procharger...)
These are the most efficient blowers and can support a lot of power given you go with a big head unit and supporting mods. These can gain on the low side of 110 rwhp or as much as 500 rwhp, again depending on supporting mods and fuel used all on a stock LS3 short block. Our record is 928 rwhp on a stock LS3 short block with an F1A Procharger/heads/cam/headers/meth on 104 race gas. Figure you are going to add approx 80 lbs to the nose of the car and can have some cooling issues in the southern states during the summer with the added parts and intercooler up front blocking the radiator. Power comes on with RPM and so does boost so low RPM driving you will never know it is there, most don't really start making boost til 2500-3000 RPM and make max boost at redline.
Roots blower (E-Force, Maggie, LS9...)'
Sometimes these require a hood to clear, most of the time not. These are going to make your LS3 feel like a big block because boost comes on really quickly and low and mid range torque. Expect full boost by 2500 RPM or so. They do add a bit more weight and they do add weight on top as it sits on top of the engine. Generally more parts come with these, and they will not support super high HP numbers, at least not like a Procharger would. These typically make street cars really fun because of the torque. Figure most of these kits are going to add 100-150 hp at the tires, but torque is their selling point.
I would say the big advantage with a blower, either style, is that you can add power without changing anything drivablity wise on the car which makes them very appealing to a lot of customers.
So my question to you, how much do you want to make in the long run and what is the use of the car?
Working from your assumption that headers + tune goes from a base of 380 to 420 HP, then adding a typical street cam would take you to 460 - 480 HP.
For a s/c without any supporting mods, especially headers, I've seen a few around 500 RWHP. Don't count on the stock cats lasting forever with a blower and when they fail, the power drops off.
The discussion would make more sense if you defined "supporting mods" and identified specifically what you don't want to do. For example, the quoted cam numbers assume new valve springs. To me, it's a supporting mod that is a necessity to do a good job. If you want a cam and don't want to change the springs, the cam lobe choice is pretty limited and a less aggressive cam is needed.
Likewise "decent supercharger" is not a helpful description. For example, ECS and A&A both make good reliable kits, but they are a very different solution than an Edelbrock kit. Within their offerings, more expensive kits are not necessarily "top of the line" (except for bling factors) so much as they are scaled to the HP goals of the build.
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Depends on how you want the car to drive, how much power, and what you are going to do with it.
LS3 cars
H/C/I/H (Heads/cam/intake/headers)
If you want light weight, quick reving, autoX/road course use...this is my personal suggestion. It doesn't add any weight, and most of the time will remove it. There is less effect on the cooling system because you are just adding HP, not blocking the radiator with a big blower intercooler in front of it. The car is going to be more balanced over all and generally less expensive to do (depending on options). Power increase can be as low as 40-50 (cam/headers/cai) or as much as 120 to the tires again depending on options picked. There is generally going to be some livability changes to the car based on the cam but power should be pretty linear
Centri blower (A&A, Procharger...)
These are the most efficient blowers and can support a lot of power given you go with a big head unit and supporting mods. These can gain on the low side of 110 rwhp or as much as 500 rwhp, again depending on supporting mods and fuel used all on a stock LS3 short block. Our record is 928 rwhp on a stock LS3 short block with an F1A Procharger/heads/cam/headers/meth on 104 race gas. Figure you are going to add approx 80 lbs to the nose of the car and can have some cooling issues in the southern states during the summer with the added parts and intercooler up front blocking the radiator. Power comes on with RPM and so does boost so low RPM driving you will never know it is there, most don't really start making boost til 2500-3000 RPM and make max boost at redline.
Roots blower (E-Force, Maggie, LS9...)'
Sometimes these require a hood to clear, most of the time not. These are going to make your LS3 feel like a big block because boost comes on really quickly and low and mid range torque. Expect full boost by 2500 RPM or so. They do add a bit more weight and they do add weight on top as it sits on top of the engine. Generally more parts come with these, and they will not support super high HP numbers, at least not like a Procharger would. These typically make street cars really fun because of the torque. Figure most of these kits are going to add 100-150 hp at the tires, but torque is their selling point.
I would say the big advantage with a blower, either style, is that you can add power without changing anything drivablity wise on the car which makes them very appealing to a lot of customers.
So my question to you, how much do you want to make in the long run and what is the use of the car?
Holy crap! that LS9 blower H/C on 100 octane has almost 772ft-lbs at 3K RPM?!?! WOWZERS! Are the G9X2 specs still "top secret"??
I like where this thread is going. I too have a stock LS3 I'm starting to mod. I'm thinking LTs, ORX, DRs and tune no matter what.
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Originally Posted by LoganExplosion
Holy crap! that LS9 blower H/C on 100 octane has almost 772ft-lbs at 3K RPM?!?! WOWZERS! Are the G9X2 specs still "top secret"??
I like where this thread is going. I too have a stock LS3 I'm starting to mod. I'm thinking LTs, ORX, DRs and tune no matter what.
Afraid so....no release plans for specs on that camshaft.
Depends on how you want the car to drive, how much power, and what you are going to do with it.
LS3 cars
H/C/I/H (Heads/cam/intake/headers)
If you want light weight, quick reving, autoX/road course use...this is my personal suggestion. It doesn't add any weight, and most of the time will remove it. There is less effect on the cooling system because you are just adding HP, not blocking the radiator with a big blower intercooler in front of it. The car is going to be more balanced over all and generally less expensive to do (depending on options). Power increase can be as low as 40-50 (cam/headers/cai) or as much as 120 to the tires again depending on options picked. There is generally going to be some livability changes to the car based on the cam but power should be pretty linear
Centri blower (A&A, Procharger...)
These are the most efficient blowers and can support a lot of power given you go with a big head unit and supporting mods. These can gain on the low side of 110 rwhp or as much as 500 rwhp, again depending on supporting mods and fuel used all on a stock LS3 short block. Our record is 928 rwhp on a stock LS3 short block with an F1A Procharger/heads/cam/headers/meth on 104 race gas. Figure you are going to add approx 80 lbs to the nose of the car and can have some cooling issues in the southern states during the summer with the added parts and intercooler up front blocking the radiator. Power comes on with RPM and so does boost so low RPM driving you will never know it is there, most don't really start making boost til 2500-3000 RPM and make max boost at redline.
Roots blower (E-Force, Maggie, LS9...)'
Sometimes these require a hood to clear, most of the time not. These are going to make your LS3 feel like a big block because boost comes on really quickly and low and mid range torque. Expect full boost by 2500 RPM or so. They do add a bit more weight and they do add weight on top as it sits on top of the engine. Generally more parts come with these, and they will not support super high HP numbers, at least not like a Procharger would. These typically make street cars really fun because of the torque. Figure most of these kits are going to add 100-150 hp at the tires, but torque is their selling point.
I would say the big advantage with a blower, either style, is that you can add power without changing anything drivablity wise on the car which makes them very appealing to a lot of customers.
So my question to you, how much do you want to make in the long run and what is the use of the car?
Let me start by saying Thank you very much for taking time from your busy schedule to help with such authority backed by your impeccable reputation. I read most of your posts and was hoping to get you input, recognizing that you are one of the most knowledgeable professionals around.
The car is my daily driver, I don't believe in owning such an amazing machine and not enjoyed it every day. Life is too short to drink cheap wine and to drive anything else that pure breed sport scars.
I do not have a particular hp number in mind or a 1/4 time to achieve. I'm looking to improve the performance without excessive noise (I run the npp open 95% of the time) but don't want to go louder than that and keep the option to quiet down if needed.
I don't mind decreasing "drivabilty" some to get the extra horsepower. That is why I am interested in know what to expect by upgrading the cam but keeping the stock exhaust.
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Originally Posted by Nelson765
Let me start by saying Thank you very much for taking time from your busy schedule to help with such authority backed by your impeccable reputation. I read most of your posts and was hoping to get you input, recognizing that you are one of the most knowledgeable professionals around.
The car is my daily driver, I don't believe in owning such an amazing machine and not enjoyed it every day. Life is too short to drink cheap wine and to drive anything else that pure breed sport scars.
I do not have a particular hp number in mind or a 1/4 time to achieve. I'm looking to improve the performance without excessive noise (I run the npp open 95% of the time) but don't want to go louder than that and keep the option to quiet down if needed.
I don't mind decreasing "drivabilty" some to get the extra horsepower. That is why I am interested in know what to expect by upgrading the cam but keeping the stock exhaust.
I get some flack for it, but for a daily driver street car...with no plans to make 800/1000+ rwhp the E-Force is a pretty darn good deal. I would do the 599 kit if I was going to do it, don't see much point in the 550 kit myself. Most of these will make about 500-510 rwhp on average, about 120-130 rwhp gain on a completely stock car with their tune. Add headers and a custom tune and you can pick up another 30 or so on top of that.
Now why you might ask? (see dyno sheets above) You get a lot for what you are doing and you get a lot of torque, which for stoplight to stoplight driving it makes the car a lot of fun to drive and you can blow the tires off and slide it around without much throttle input. The blower will make more if pushed and mid 600's to the tire isn't to hard to do with them with the addition of headers/cam/headers and a pulley change.
Last edited by Anthony @ LGMotorsports; 01-04-2017 at 02:49 PM.
I did almost exactly what you are describing on my LS3. I have the eforce 599 kit but added ID850 injectors to go with the down sized 3" pulley and 1.75" headers (sorry not yours though). My best pull was 12* timing with 93 octane and got 581/575 to the wheels. I moved to AZ though and had my tune dial timing back being 91 octane is the preferred EPA blend here. I found a place selling Sunoco 100 (across from Bondurant's place) so I make a mix to get back up to ~94 octane.
I do debate a cam but don't want something wild. Any quick recommendations? I like the thought of an LS9 but am looking at trying for 50rwhp more and I here maybe 20rwhp with the LS9.
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Originally Posted by grady
Lou;
I did almost exactly what you are describing on my LS3. I have the eforce 599 kit but added ID850 injectors to go with the down sized 3" pulley and 1.75" headers (sorry not yours though). My best pull was 12* timing with 93 octane and got 581/575 to the wheels. I moved to AZ though and had my tune dial timing back being 91 octane is the preferred EPA blend here. I found a place selling Sunoco 100 (across from Bondurant's place) so I make a mix to get back up to ~94 octane.
I do debate a cam but don't want something wild. Any quick recommendations? I like the thought of an LS9 but am looking at trying for 50rwhp more and I here maybe 20rwhp with the LS9.
That car put down 650 rwhp with our 1 3/4 Super Pro's, Akrapovic mufflers, G9X2 cam, LG ported LS3 heads, 599 E-force with a 10% overdrive ATI balancer, ID 1000 injectors, no meth on 93 pump fuel.
Last edited by Anthony @ LGMotorsports; 01-04-2017 at 03:37 PM.
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Originally Posted by grady
Thanks Lou for the audio/video...
While the cam does have a pretty good lope to it, once tuned with a blower they drive pretty close to stock...for a cam'd car anyway. The car was running at a measured 14 psi of boost, but I would have to go back and see what timing was on it.
Working from your assumption that headers + tune goes from a base of 380 to 420 HP, then adding a typical street cam would take you to 460 - 480 HP.
For a s/c without any supporting mods, especially headers, I've seen a few around 500 RWHP. Don't count on the stock cats lasting forever with a blower and when they fail, the power drops off.
The discussion would make more sense if you defined "supporting mods" and identified specifically what you don't want to do. For example, the quoted cam numbers assume new valve springs. To me, it's a supporting mod that is a necessity to do a good job. If you want a cam and don't want to change the springs, the cam lobe choice is pretty limited and a less aggressive cam is needed.
Likewise "decent supercharger" is not a helpful description. For example, ECS and A&A both make good reliable kits, but they are a very different solution than an Edelbrock kit. Within their offerings, more expensive kits are not necessarily "top of the line" (except for bling factors) so much as they are scaled to the HP goals of the build.
Thank you for the input. When I said supporting mods, I was thinking of the headers and CAI. The springs, retainers, pushrods, etc. will be upgraded as part of the cam swap. I understand the importance of upgrading these with the cam for reliability, performance and lifespan. The cam would be bought as a kit with all the required upgrades to do it correctly.
A decent supercharger . . . sorry is vague, I don't know much about them. That is why I'm asking. I definitely don't care about the bling or about squeezing every possible horsepower out of the engine. I don't want to get a cheap one that works half *** and is not reliable. I'm not even sure what horse power to expect form different models. I have no idea of the difference of an A&A, ECS vs. the Edelbrock.
Based on other responses, It seems that the cost of getting the CAI, quality Headers, a cam and the tune will be similar to just getting a supercharger, but the supercharger by itself will produce twice the horse power while maintaining better drivability. Would that be a good assumption/interpretation?
I would say a heads/cam kit would be $6-8k, centrifugal supercharger $8-10k and a PD supercharger would be $10-12k.
The heads/cam car is the road race car, the centrifugal car is 1/4 - 1 mile race car and the PD car is the street car with more hp than stock and more than you need (although never enough) for boulevard cruising like I do.
That car put down 650 rwhp with our 1 3/4 Super Pro's, Akrapovic mufflers, G9X2 cam, LG ported LS3 heads, 599 E-force with a 10% overdrive ATI balancer, ID 1000 injectors, no meth on 93 pump fuel.
Out of curiosity, did you do any work on the bottom end or is it all stock? What kind of life can one reasonably expect if a car like this is used for periodic 1/4 or 1 mile runs on a stock bottom end? Would a build like this be suitable for a car used in something like the Big Bend Open Road Race?
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
Originally Posted by 98Pace
Out of curiosity, did you do any work on the bottom end or is it all stock? What kind of life can one reasonably expect if a car like this is used for periodic 1/4 or 1 mile runs on a stock bottom end? Would a build like this be suitable for a car used in something like the Big Bend Open Road Race?
That car had a stock short block and arrived to us with 37 miles on the clock when we built it.
Mind your manners with it, and do your normal maintenance and listen to it, if something isn't working right yeah it should last you a very long time. The owner we built the car for had it for 3 years in that form before trading for a C7Z. I don't know where the car is now, however but yeah shouldn't have any issues with it.
Something like that for street, 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile stuff would be no problem. I would suggest some cooling upgrades for 1 mile runs and possibly meth. Big Bend, could be done but again it is going to need some cooling upgrades to do something like that.
Headers with cam kit is $4k - $6k installed and tuned depending upon the headers selected, the shop, and misc supporting mods.
A centri blower kit is $7 - 8k installed and tuned. It's a little easier to get huge low end torque (e.g., 2500 rpm) out of a PD blower (Edelbrock) than a centri (A&A, ECS), but that comes with a couple grand higher price tag.
I like the feel of a cammed car and with a mild cam there is no drivability downside. S/C cars can feel like stock until you hammer it, which is nice too. You live in Florida and a S/C does add to the car's heat load. If you have an A6 car, there can be a lot of heat to dissipate on a 100* day in stop and go traffic.
01-04-2017, 10:39 AM
CAI & Headers vs Cam vs Supercharger for LS3
Best bang for the buck!