Tony Mamo MMS 260 cc LS3 Heads with spin monster cam result
07-23-2018, 12:49 PM
#23
Safety Car
Quite a few people dealing with valve float with those heads and rockers (LS7, so 1.8 ratio rockers). Keep an eye on it.
Last edited by Tech; 07-23-2018 at 12:50 PM.
07-24-2018, 01:30 AM
#24
It's the very core of what's inherently wrong with most of these automotive performance forums and I will be taking a much more active role in shutting it down from here forward
In fact this build is just another example of the quality and the potential of the parts I provide. Ironically this power curve exhibits stellar valve control so that was a pretty silly thing to say looking at the data here.
Real world results and the feedback from my customers concerning my products and combinations speak much louder than the recent spread of bad 3rd party information in the LS7 community. Most of the people even discussing this wouldn't know what valve float looked like on a graph if it bit them in the shorts but the real bottom line is that this stems from a few builds over the last few months that had issues not related to the parts I provided (most of it install error). One customer had bad ignition wires, another a poor remote coil install shorting to the firewall, and another customer that had the wrong length pushrods installed. When you deal with enough people your bound to have issues come up from install errors that's naturally out of control of the guy providing the parts so in the future I would appreciate it if you try to be part of the solution and not the problem.
Josh (the OP)......congrats on the build and it looks like everything turned out great. I enjoyed dealing with you and good to see the project completed and on the road
If you need anything else in the future keep me in mind and feel free to reach out anytime if you have any questions on the heads or anything else I helped you with.
Most importantly enjoy the car and the additional HP and TQ....Im sure its alot more fun now!
Cheers,
Tony
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 07-24-2018 at 01:59 AM.
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07-24-2018, 08:05 AM
#25
That curve looks like a lot of fun. NOT bashing by any means here, just curious... Any idea what caused the little dip between 3000-3300 and 3800-4200 rpm?
Again, awesome results. Hitting 400 torque at 2700 rpm is no joke. Waiting anxiously for videos
Daniel
Again, awesome results. Hitting 400 torque at 2700 rpm is no joke. Waiting anxiously for videos
Daniel
07-24-2018, 09:45 AM
#26
Sometimes tuners are tight for time and don't focus on the low RPM WOT stuff spending most of their time in the middle to higher RPM portion of the curve where you would spend most of your time anyway at WOT (in most applications at least). It could be a hundred things but if you look at most dyno runs there are dips and flat spots that are typically present.....its not uncommon at all actually.
I only participated in a portion of this build but what I just mentioned applies to most situations anyway.
-Tony
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 07-24-2018 at 09:46 AM.
07-24-2018, 11:08 AM
#27
Safety Car
It's not wrong. It is not bad information.
These conversations take place on social media by people who aren't hiding behind screen names. Like you, their personal reputations are on the line when they make claims. They also aren't hiding behind an avatar like trolls often have done in the past on forums. These customers spend lots of money with you and have good initial results. Later, some have shown dyno graphs and other supporting evidence of valvetrain instability. I'm not an expert on valvetrains but several other reputable people in the industry (not internet experts) have made these claims. You may think it's _all_ installer error and _some_ of it could be. However, these other tuners add the mounting evidence that there could be a problem with the rockers. There is enough evidence to be concerned. I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just relaying information that looks objectionably substantive.
These conversations take place on social media by people who aren't hiding behind screen names. Like you, their personal reputations are on the line when they make claims. They also aren't hiding behind an avatar like trolls often have done in the past on forums. These customers spend lots of money with you and have good initial results. Later, some have shown dyno graphs and other supporting evidence of valvetrain instability. I'm not an expert on valvetrains but several other reputable people in the industry (not internet experts) have made these claims. You may think it's _all_ installer error and _some_ of it could be. However, these other tuners add the mounting evidence that there could be a problem with the rockers. There is enough evidence to be concerned. I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just relaying information that looks objectionably substantive.
07-24-2018, 09:18 PM
#28
It's not wrong. It is not bad information.
These conversations take place on social media by people who aren't hiding behind screen names. Like you, their personal reputations are on the line when they make claims. They also aren't hiding behind an avatar like trolls often have done in the past on forums. These customers spend lots of money with you and have good initial results. Later, some have shown dyno graphs and other supporting evidence of valvetrain instability. I'm not an expert on valvetrains but several other reputable people in the industry (not internet experts) have made these claims. You may think it's _all_ installer error and _some_ of it could be. However, these other tuners add the mounting evidence that there could be a problem with the rockers. There is enough evidence to be concerned. I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just relaying information that looks objectionably substantive.
These conversations take place on social media by people who aren't hiding behind screen names. Like you, their personal reputations are on the line when they make claims. They also aren't hiding behind an avatar like trolls often have done in the past on forums. These customers spend lots of money with you and have good initial results. Later, some have shown dyno graphs and other supporting evidence of valvetrain instability. I'm not an expert on valvetrains but several other reputable people in the industry (not internet experts) have made these claims. You may think it's _all_ installer error and _some_ of it could be. However, these other tuners add the mounting evidence that there could be a problem with the rockers. There is enough evidence to be concerned. I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just relaying information that looks objectionably substantive.
One of them is a well known shop who I wont name (that I know your alluding to) who mis-diagnosed the bad remote coil installation and kicked my customer out the door saying sorry about your valve float issues and took his money for an incomplete tune. I personally built and tested that engine on an engine dyno and it ran flawlessly making 767 HP. We shared that info with the shop at the time they were having issues on the chassis dyno but no one cared. My customer than took that combo to another local shop who properly diagnosed the problem.....they rerouted the wires going through the firewall and it made 660+ at the rear wheels with perfect valve control. Another shop who thought there was an issue was dealing with incorrect pushrod lengths that were holding the valve open causing the power to curtail at the higher RPM's.
I could go on and on. Find me a legit thread on this forum with a customer of mine having real unsolved issues and not making good power....whether its a cathedral, LS3, LS7.....I dont care and I will gather a list of about 50 threads with my customers making big power all with independent builds and independent 3rd party tuners that I have zero affiliation with. More 600+ RWHP LS7 builds have been documented on this very forum with my MMS 265 heads than any other. Fourteen 3rd party independent LS7 dyno records have been set with Mamo Motorsports LS7 combinations......all of these records on 3rd party independent dyno's....in fact the last one (record #14) was on Tick performance's dyno and god knows how many combo's must have rolled on that dyno (a very popular shop).
You seem like a level headed guy.....if you truly don't have an agenda and want to get more of the story I suggest you reach out to me directly because I do not want to hijack Josh's build thread. While I initially tried to take an approach I felt was more professional (my decision to not get involved in some of these threads hoping it would just blow over), I have recently decided I am not going to sit idle and let this kind of inaccurate information spread any longer. I have worked too long and too hard developing the reputation I have.
Really its a numbers game....the busier and larger you get the more people you help and the greater the opportunity for things to go wrong as most builds are out of your control
Josh.....sorry about derailing your thread a bit.....Tech I would appreciate if you reached out to me directly via PM, email, or phone if you want further clarification.
-Tony
07-24-2018, 10:43 PM
#29
Racer
It's not wrong. It is not bad information.
These conversations take place on social media by people who aren't hiding behind screen names. Like you, their personal reputations are on the line when they make claims. They also aren't hiding behind an avatar like trolls often have done in the past on forums. These customers spend lots of money with you and have good initial results. Later, some have shown dyno graphs and other supporting evidence of valvetrain instability. I'm not an expert on valvetrains but several other reputable people in the industry (not internet experts) have made these claims. You may think it's _all_ installer error and _some_ of it could be. However, these other tuners add the mounting evidence that there could be a problem with the rockers. There is enough evidence to be concerned. I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just relaying information that looks objectionably substantive.
These conversations take place on social media by people who aren't hiding behind screen names. Like you, their personal reputations are on the line when they make claims. They also aren't hiding behind an avatar like trolls often have done in the past on forums. These customers spend lots of money with you and have good initial results. Later, some have shown dyno graphs and other supporting evidence of valvetrain instability. I'm not an expert on valvetrains but several other reputable people in the industry (not internet experts) have made these claims. You may think it's _all_ installer error and _some_ of it could be. However, these other tuners add the mounting evidence that there could be a problem with the rockers. There is enough evidence to be concerned. I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just relaying information that looks objectionably substantive.
07-24-2018, 11:21 PM
#30
The ironic thing about this whole deal is I pay more attention to it than most (in fact its actually part of the secret of my combinations's success) that the "Internet" is now trying to spin the other way. Some of it (alot perhaps) is people not in the know parroting others not in the know (the typical way bad info spreads) and make no mistake about the fact that some of it is purposeful with hidden agendas behind it and that's even worse.
In fact ALL of my Mamo full CNC heads (my premium products) include hollow stem lighter weight intake valves for this very reason.....I wont even sell a premium MMS product without it (my cheaper as cast products I offer both ways). I only run Ultralite Yella Terra rockers for the same reasons.....they are lightweight purpose built rockers aimed at providing excellent control with an HR valvetrain (T&D, Crower, Jesel.....all of them are too heavy and over built for most HR builds).
Anyway.....trying to keep this brief and on point. I will probably start my own thread to combat this and try to keep all the information in one place....finding the time to do that this time of year is a challenge but I think its the best approach to snuffing this BS over the long haul.
At the end of the day the documented results on this forum (and others) from all my customers builds will continue to scream the truth about what's really happening to those that are really trying to listen (my future potential customers).
-Tony
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 07-24-2018 at 11:22 PM.
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07-24-2018, 11:42 PM
#31
Racer
Thanks for the info, but the original poster didnt have to work for it n that seems to be much of the problem in the world of free( internet) info. He was talking of the ls7 heads n rockers , production parts as I read it. Thats where I called it out, as you the after market are the ones that are called to remedy the error.
07-25-2018, 10:58 AM
#32
Safety Car
YokesC5 actually proved Tony's point. Contrary to Yokes, I did take the time to understand the problem and read multiple accounts of people having problems with the LS7 combo before saying anything to anyone about it. I did not jump to conclusions or parrot things blindly without evidence. I'm not here to lambast Tony for his combos. My comment was rather small and innocuous, until Tony made a big deal about it by incorrectly stating what I said was wrong and now are forcing me to provide more information on how I formed my opinion. Nothing I said was wrong. People have reported issues with valve control. Removing the rockers solved the issue. Both facts.
It's entirely possible that these other reputable tuners have an axe to grind with you. I also suggested the OP keep an eye on it, not to remove the parts. There are enough people having issues, that the caution is warranted in my opinion (opinions are like ____, I know). The tuners who have fixed these issues didn't have _anything_ to gain by putting stock rockers back on a head. Anybody can spread misinformation. Maybe the tuners fixed the issue the wrong way in your opinion. Maybe not. Nobody is willing to pay to find out when putting stock rockers cured the issue.
It's entirely possible that these other reputable tuners have an axe to grind with you. I also suggested the OP keep an eye on it, not to remove the parts. There are enough people having issues, that the caution is warranted in my opinion (opinions are like ____, I know). The tuners who have fixed these issues didn't have _anything_ to gain by putting stock rockers back on a head. Anybody can spread misinformation. Maybe the tuners fixed the issue the wrong way in your opinion. Maybe not. Nobody is willing to pay to find out when putting stock rockers cured the issue.
Last edited by Tech; 07-25-2018 at 10:58 AM.
07-25-2018, 01:25 PM
#33
Safety Car
YokesC5 actually proved Tony's point. Contrary to Yokes, I did take the time to understand the problem and read multiple accounts of people having problems with the LS7 combo before saying anything to anyone about it. I did not jump to conclusions or parrot things blindly without evidence. I'm not here to lambast Tony for his combos. My comment was rather small and innocuous, until Tony made a big deal about it by incorrectly stating what I said was wrong and now are forcing me to provide more information on how I formed my opinion. Nothing I said was wrong. People have reported issues with valve control. Removing the rockers solved the issue. Both facts.
It's entirely possible that these other reputable tuners have an axe to grind with you. I also suggested the OP keep an eye on it, not to remove the parts. There are enough people having issues, that the caution is warranted in my opinion (opinions are like ____, I know). The tuners who have fixed these issues didn't have _anything_ to gain by putting stock rockers back on a head. Anybody can spread misinformation. Maybe the tuners fixed the issue the wrong way in your opinion. Maybe not. Nobody is willing to pay to find out when putting stock rockers cured the issue.
It's entirely possible that these other reputable tuners have an axe to grind with you. I also suggested the OP keep an eye on it, not to remove the parts. There are enough people having issues, that the caution is warranted in my opinion (opinions are like ____, I know). The tuners who have fixed these issues didn't have _anything_ to gain by putting stock rockers back on a head. Anybody can spread misinformation. Maybe the tuners fixed the issue the wrong way in your opinion. Maybe not. Nobody is willing to pay to find out when putting stock rockers cured the issue.
Last edited by irok; 07-25-2018 at 01:28 PM.
07-25-2018, 11:36 PM
#34
Safety Car
The people who reported issues were generally raked over the coals by people questioning their conclusion. Could it have been pushrods? Sure. In every case? Not likely. Improper spring setup? Maybe. Could all of them have been caused by different things other than the rockers? Maybe. I’m just saying I think its wise to keep an eye on it. At this point, I think its probably best to take this convo to PM. Continuing to talk about it may give the impression that I’m busting *****, which was never my intent.
07-26-2018, 07:58 AM
#35
Advanced
Thread Starter
Have you considered its in the best interest of my competitors to help spread the bad information?
One of them is a well known shop who I wont name (that I know your alluding to) who mis-diagnosed the bad remote coil installation and kicked my customer out the door saying sorry about your valve float issues and took his money for an incomplete tune. I personally built and tested that engine on an engine dyno and it ran flawlessly making 767 HP. We shared that info with the shop at the time they were having issues on the chassis dyno but no one cared. My customer than took that combo to another local shop who properly diagnosed the problem.....they rerouted the wires going through the firewall and it made 660+ at the rear wheels with perfect valve control. Another shop who thought there was an issue was dealing with incorrect pushrod lengths that were holding the valve open causing the power to curtail at the higher RPM's.
I could go on and on. Find me a legit thread on this forum with a customer of mine having real unsolved issues and not making good power....whether its a cathedral, LS3, LS7.....I dont care and I will gather a list of about 50 threads with my customers making big power all with independent builds and independent 3rd party tuners that I have zero affiliation with. More 600+ RWHP LS7 builds have been documented on this very forum with my MMS 265 heads than any other. Fourteen 3rd party independent LS7 dyno records have been set with Mamo Motorsports LS7 combinations......all of these records on 3rd party independent dyno's....in fact the last one (record #14) was on Tick performance's dyno and god knows how many combo's must have rolled on that dyno (a very popular shop).
You seem like a level headed guy.....if you truly don't have an agenda and want to get more of the story I suggest you reach out to me directly because I do not want to hijack Josh's build thread. While I initially tried to take an approach I felt was more professional (my decision to not get involved in some of these threads hoping it would just blow over), I have recently decided I am not going to sit idle and let this kind of inaccurate information spread any longer. I have worked too long and too hard developing the reputation I have.
Really its a numbers game....the busier and larger you get the more people you help and the greater the opportunity for things to go wrong as most builds are out of your control
Josh.....sorry about derailing your thread a bit.....Tech I would appreciate if you reached out to me directly via PM, email, or phone if you want further clarification.
-Tony
One of them is a well known shop who I wont name (that I know your alluding to) who mis-diagnosed the bad remote coil installation and kicked my customer out the door saying sorry about your valve float issues and took his money for an incomplete tune. I personally built and tested that engine on an engine dyno and it ran flawlessly making 767 HP. We shared that info with the shop at the time they were having issues on the chassis dyno but no one cared. My customer than took that combo to another local shop who properly diagnosed the problem.....they rerouted the wires going through the firewall and it made 660+ at the rear wheels with perfect valve control. Another shop who thought there was an issue was dealing with incorrect pushrod lengths that were holding the valve open causing the power to curtail at the higher RPM's.
I could go on and on. Find me a legit thread on this forum with a customer of mine having real unsolved issues and not making good power....whether its a cathedral, LS3, LS7.....I dont care and I will gather a list of about 50 threads with my customers making big power all with independent builds and independent 3rd party tuners that I have zero affiliation with. More 600+ RWHP LS7 builds have been documented on this very forum with my MMS 265 heads than any other. Fourteen 3rd party independent LS7 dyno records have been set with Mamo Motorsports LS7 combinations......all of these records on 3rd party independent dyno's....in fact the last one (record #14) was on Tick performance's dyno and god knows how many combo's must have rolled on that dyno (a very popular shop).
You seem like a level headed guy.....if you truly don't have an agenda and want to get more of the story I suggest you reach out to me directly because I do not want to hijack Josh's build thread. While I initially tried to take an approach I felt was more professional (my decision to not get involved in some of these threads hoping it would just blow over), I have recently decided I am not going to sit idle and let this kind of inaccurate information spread any longer. I have worked too long and too hard developing the reputation I have.
Really its a numbers game....the busier and larger you get the more people you help and the greater the opportunity for things to go wrong as most builds are out of your control
Josh.....sorry about derailing your thread a bit.....Tech I would appreciate if you reached out to me directly via PM, email, or phone if you want further clarification.
-Tony
07-29-2018, 12:25 PM
#37
Advanced
Thread Starter
havent planned on it as i love roll racing more but everybody ive talked to wants me to run it on 1/4 at least for a night lol so i may end up doing that one day just need to buy some good back tires and run it and see what time id get.
07-29-2018, 07:08 PM
#38
Instructor
It cracks me up to see the hate on high ratio rockers. I use 1.85s personally and my engine has been spun to 7900 in between shifts. Stock heads stock cam psi1511 springs and makes 470rwhp runs mid 10s@131. Op good luck and if your not a track guy then don’t waste your efforts trying to put a good pass together. One outing will not get you there.
07-30-2018, 12:39 PM
#39
Safety Car
It cracks me up to see the hate on high ratio rockers. I use 1.85s personally and my engine has been spun to 7900 in between shifts. Stock heads stock cam psi1511 springs and makes 470rwhp runs mid 10s@131. Op good luck and if your not a track guy then don’t waste your efforts trying to put a good pass together. One outing will not get you there.
I'm not hating on the 1.8s, but the comparison to your set-up isn't exactly even. The stock LS3 cam has significantly lower lift than what he is running. On the intake side, his cam's lift with the normal 1.7 rockers exceeds the stock cam's lift using 1.85 rockers. His lighter valves do make it easier to maintain proper control and if I had the lighter valves, I'd run more lift than I currently do too.
Last edited by Ragtop 99; 07-30-2018 at 12:40 PM.
07-30-2018, 01:05 PM
#40
Instructor
Let me start by saying that is an excellent result with stock heads and cam. Which intake are you using to support the 7000 rpm+ breathing?
I'm not hating on the 1.8s, but the comparison to your set-up isn't exactly even. The stock LS3 cam has significantly lower lift than what he is running. On the intake side, his cam's lift with the normal 1.7 rockers exceeds the stock cam's lift using 1.85 rockers. His lighter valves do make it easier to maintain proper control and if I had the lighter valves, I'd run more lift than I currently do too.
I'm not hating on the 1.8s, but the comparison to your set-up isn't exactly even. The stock LS3 cam has significantly lower lift than what he is running. On the intake side, his cam's lift with the normal 1.7 rockers exceeds the stock cam's lift using 1.85 rockers. His lighter valves do make it easier to maintain proper control and if I had the lighter valves, I'd run more lift than I currently do too.