Who's at fault here ??
09-22-2018, 08:05 AM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Who's at fault here ??
My problem...
My new 6.8 ltr LS2 forged and roller motor with D1 ProCharger needed a new dyno tune. Motor had 2200 miles on it when I went with a sheet metal intake and pullied down from 4.0 to 3.6. Injectors were 80 lb Marren units.
The "tuner" at the shop wanted 60 lb injectors (???) so I took him what he wanted. The shop installed them.
After several pulls, the "tuner" decides he needs the 80 lb injectors, so they pull out the 60's and re-install the original 80's. This was late in the day and they decided to tune the car the next morning.
They fire the car and, without allowing the motor to completely warm up, run it to 7k rpm, and the oil pressure drops to 10 psi !!!
After talking to some others at the shop I found out the following:
1. Instead to draining the fuel rails when swapping injectors, the "tuner" simply pulled the fuel pump fuse then turned the motor over until all fuel was dispersed into the engines cylinders (both times). I believe this washed down the cylinders and diluted the oil. After draining the oil, there was a STRONG smell of gas in the liquid.
2. The last pull on the dyno was before the engine was warmed up. The car has a large external oil cooler and in 90* weather, it would still require 10 miles of average driving to get the oil temp up to 150*, what I have been told, ages ago, that 150* is the MINIMUM temp for high perf usage.
3. On this last dyno pull, the oil pressure dropped to 10 psi.
4. Upon cutting open the oil filter, there is bearing material inside.
I have now pulled the motor and it is at the shop that originally built it for me (Not the shop with the dyno). No word on the damage, but pretty sure I have bearing and cylinder wall issues.
My question:
Is the tuner shop liable for their stupidity?
Has anyone successfully sued a shop for "malpractice" ?
Thanks for listening to my vent.....
My new 6.8 ltr LS2 forged and roller motor with D1 ProCharger needed a new dyno tune. Motor had 2200 miles on it when I went with a sheet metal intake and pullied down from 4.0 to 3.6. Injectors were 80 lb Marren units.
The "tuner" at the shop wanted 60 lb injectors (???) so I took him what he wanted. The shop installed them.
After several pulls, the "tuner" decides he needs the 80 lb injectors, so they pull out the 60's and re-install the original 80's. This was late in the day and they decided to tune the car the next morning.
They fire the car and, without allowing the motor to completely warm up, run it to 7k rpm, and the oil pressure drops to 10 psi !!!
After talking to some others at the shop I found out the following:
1. Instead to draining the fuel rails when swapping injectors, the "tuner" simply pulled the fuel pump fuse then turned the motor over until all fuel was dispersed into the engines cylinders (both times). I believe this washed down the cylinders and diluted the oil. After draining the oil, there was a STRONG smell of gas in the liquid.
2. The last pull on the dyno was before the engine was warmed up. The car has a large external oil cooler and in 90* weather, it would still require 10 miles of average driving to get the oil temp up to 150*, what I have been told, ages ago, that 150* is the MINIMUM temp for high perf usage.
3. On this last dyno pull, the oil pressure dropped to 10 psi.
4. Upon cutting open the oil filter, there is bearing material inside.
I have now pulled the motor and it is at the shop that originally built it for me (Not the shop with the dyno). No word on the damage, but pretty sure I have bearing and cylinder wall issues.
My question:
Is the tuner shop liable for their stupidity?
Has anyone successfully sued a shop for "malpractice" ?
Thanks for listening to my vent.....
09-22-2018, 09:11 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
Tough case.
First, I think you need to send the oil out for analysis, yet the chain of evidence has been lost.
Does the shop have a history of failures?
Can you prove this with evidence?
You points 1 & 2 are hearsay at this point... video evidence? witnesses expertise & their reason for making
those claims?
Fact the engine is modified.
Fact more than one shop, plus you the owner involved with modifications.
Seems like a race car failure.
I don't think you'd win without a seasoned attorney...maybe 16 hours at attorney rate fees.
Small claims, good luck, IMO tough cased to prove as plaintiff; defendant as many options.
That's my 2 cent comment and maybe not what you wished to read.
Maybe another co-member has some better insights.
Good luck.
First, I think you need to send the oil out for analysis, yet the chain of evidence has been lost.
Does the shop have a history of failures?
Can you prove this with evidence?
You points 1 & 2 are hearsay at this point... video evidence? witnesses expertise & their reason for making
those claims?
Fact the engine is modified.
Fact more than one shop, plus you the owner involved with modifications.
Seems like a race car failure.
I don't think you'd win without a seasoned attorney...maybe 16 hours at attorney rate fees.
Small claims, good luck, IMO tough cased to prove as plaintiff; defendant as many options.
That's my 2 cent comment and maybe not what you wished to read.
Maybe another co-member has some better insights.
Good luck.
09-22-2018, 09:43 AM
#3
Safety Car
this
My problem...
My new 6.8 ltr LS2 forged and roller motor with D1 ProCharger needed a new dyno tune. Motor had 2200 miles on it when I went with a sheet metal intake and pullied down from 4.0 to 3.6. Injectors were 80 lb Marren units.
The "tuner" at the shop wanted 60 lb injectors (???) so I took him what he wanted. The shop installed them.
After several pulls, the "tuner" decides he needs the 80 lb injectors, so they pull out the 60's and re-install the original 80's. This was late in the day and they decided to tune the car the next morning.
They fire the car and, without allowing the motor to completely warm up, run it to 7k rpm, and the oil pressure drops to 10 psi !!!
After talking to some others at the shop I found out the following:
1. Instead to draining the fuel rails when swapping injectors, the "tuner" simply pulled the fuel pump fuse then turned the motor over until all fuel was dispersed into the engines cylinders (both times). I believe this washed down the cylinders and diluted the oil. After draining the oil, there was a STRONG smell of gas in the liquid.
2. The last pull on the dyno was before the engine was warmed up. The car has a large external oil cooler and in 90* weather, it would still require 10 miles of average driving to get the oil temp up to 150*, what I have been told, ages ago, that 150* is the MINIMUM temp for high perf usage.
3. On this last dyno pull, the oil pressure dropped to 10 psi.
4. Upon cutting open the oil filter, there is bearing material inside.
I have now pulled the motor and it is at the shop that originally built it for me (Not the shop with the dyno). No word on the damage, but pretty sure I have bearing and cylinder wall issues.
My question:
Is the tuner shop liable for their stupidity?
Has anyone successfully sued a shop for "malpractice" ?
Thanks for listening to my vent.....
My new 6.8 ltr LS2 forged and roller motor with D1 ProCharger needed a new dyno tune. Motor had 2200 miles on it when I went with a sheet metal intake and pullied down from 4.0 to 3.6. Injectors were 80 lb Marren units.
The "tuner" at the shop wanted 60 lb injectors (???) so I took him what he wanted. The shop installed them.
After several pulls, the "tuner" decides he needs the 80 lb injectors, so they pull out the 60's and re-install the original 80's. This was late in the day and they decided to tune the car the next morning.
They fire the car and, without allowing the motor to completely warm up, run it to 7k rpm, and the oil pressure drops to 10 psi !!!
After talking to some others at the shop I found out the following:
1. Instead to draining the fuel rails when swapping injectors, the "tuner" simply pulled the fuel pump fuse then turned the motor over until all fuel was dispersed into the engines cylinders (both times). I believe this washed down the cylinders and diluted the oil. After draining the oil, there was a STRONG smell of gas in the liquid.
2. The last pull on the dyno was before the engine was warmed up. The car has a large external oil cooler and in 90* weather, it would still require 10 miles of average driving to get the oil temp up to 150*, what I have been told, ages ago, that 150* is the MINIMUM temp for high perf usage.
3. On this last dyno pull, the oil pressure dropped to 10 psi.
4. Upon cutting open the oil filter, there is bearing material inside.
I have now pulled the motor and it is at the shop that originally built it for me (Not the shop with the dyno). No word on the damage, but pretty sure I have bearing and cylinder wall issues.
My question:
Is the tuner shop liable for their stupidity?
Has anyone successfully sued a shop for "malpractice" ?
Thanks for listening to my vent.....
09-22-2018, 06:02 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jul 2014
Location: The Lowcountry South Carolina
Posts: 2,782
Received 314 Likes
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I’d go to the shop owner next and give him an opportunity to make you whole again. Otherwise your only recourse is go public, let it fly thru social media outlets and the enthusiast community. You must be unrelenting and stay away from slandering comments. Unless you go after the shop & individual who created the problem with vengeance, you will be pissing in the wind... look for others this shop has harmed.... strength in numbers.
09-22-2018, 11:51 PM
#5
Team Owner
Were you actually there and witnessed them do a 7K pull on cold oil?
Last edited by MTPZ06; 09-22-2018 at 11:52 PM.
09-23-2018, 03:11 AM
#7
Hate to say it, but a lot of dyno shops/tuners have blown up a lot of motors.
It is what it is, with some taking the blame, but other just roller the problem off to the owner to repair the damage on their own dime instead.
So before you let a shop/Tuner loose on a your car, you better be dam sure they know what they are doing, and if they do cause a motor to blow during tuning, will stand behind having the motor fixed at there expense as well.
My guess is the shop is now telling you to go **** up a rope, and as noted, hard to prove now without evidence that they caused the problem in the first place. Hence with 2200 miles on the motor already, could have already started to take out the main barrings/ had slivers/shar's in the oil stating to make it way to the pump by-pass valve to hold it open before even the dyno run, and would have causes the oil starvation in the first place to cause the motor melt down during the run.
It is what it is, with some taking the blame, but other just roller the problem off to the owner to repair the damage on their own dime instead.
So before you let a shop/Tuner loose on a your car, you better be dam sure they know what they are doing, and if they do cause a motor to blow during tuning, will stand behind having the motor fixed at there expense as well.
My guess is the shop is now telling you to go **** up a rope, and as noted, hard to prove now without evidence that they caused the problem in the first place. Hence with 2200 miles on the motor already, could have already started to take out the main barrings/ had slivers/shar's in the oil stating to make it way to the pump by-pass valve to hold it open before even the dyno run, and would have causes the oil starvation in the first place to cause the motor melt down during the run.
09-23-2018, 05:54 PM
#8
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: altered state
Posts: 81,242
Received 3,043 Likes
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2,602 Posts
St. Jude Donor '05
Boy is that a rough one, how do you pursue that?!
After a visit to a dyno and the operator running it far over the rpm I told him it "was done" at..never again. Some dont have an ear for engines, just take a look at lots of dyno vids here or youtube.
Keep us posted
After a visit to a dyno and the operator running it far over the rpm I told him it "was done" at..never again. Some dont have an ear for engines, just take a look at lots of dyno vids here or youtube.
Keep us posted
Last edited by cv67; 09-23-2018 at 05:57 PM.
09-24-2018, 08:35 AM
#9
Team Owner
Shop isn't liable at all. You picked the shop, you did your research and due dilagence before handing it over. All high performance work is at owners risk, unless you are paying up front for a warranty, in which they charge you for a failure before it ever even happens. If it lost a piston, bearing, etc etc etc it doesn't matter.
Only way a shop is liable is gross negligence, which none of this is even close. Almost all cars come from parking lot and get strapped right to dyno. Shops don't drive them for 20+ minutes to warm them up. An example of negligence you may be able to go after them would be something like forgetting to put oil in it, or not installing lash caps on ls7. A motor letting go a dyno is a lessoned learned to pick a better shop/tuner.
Only way a shop is liable is gross negligence, which none of this is even close. Almost all cars come from parking lot and get strapped right to dyno. Shops don't drive them for 20+ minutes to warm them up. An example of negligence you may be able to go after them would be something like forgetting to put oil in it, or not installing lash caps on ls7. A motor letting go a dyno is a lessoned learned to pick a better shop/tuner.
09-24-2018, 01:30 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
Shop isn't liable at all. You picked the shop, you did your research and due dilagence before handing it over. All high performance work is at owners risk, unless you are paying up front for a warranty, in which they charge you for a failure before it ever even happens. If it lost a piston, bearing, etc etc etc it doesn't matter.
Only way a shop is liable is gross negligence, which none of this is even close. Almost all cars come from parking lot and get strapped right to dyno. Shops don't drive them for 20+ minutes to warm them up. An example of negligence you may be able to go after them would be something like forgetting to put oil in it, or not installing lash caps on ls7. A motor letting go a dyno is a lessoned learned to pick a better shop/tuner.
Only way a shop is liable is gross negligence, which none of this is even close. Almost all cars come from parking lot and get strapped right to dyno. Shops don't drive them for 20+ minutes to warm them up. An example of negligence you may be able to go after them would be something like forgetting to put oil in it, or not installing lash caps on ls7. A motor letting go a dyno is a lessoned learned to pick a better shop/tuner.
09-25-2018, 07:57 AM
#11
Safety Car
If the tuner only pulled the fuel pump fuse, left ignition system on and cranked the motor to use up the fuel in the rails before swapping injectors, then that wouldnt have hurt anything. If the ignition was off as well (car didnt fire) there still isnt isnt enough fuel in the rails to dilute all the oil to the point that it would kill a motor especially if they waited until the next day to do the pulls with the 80lb injectors. As for the oil temps, you would need proof. See if the data log of the run shows temp. Sorry youre experiencing this but unfortunately its a part of hot rodding.
Last edited by C5Natie; 09-25-2018 at 08:06 AM.
09-26-2018, 02:40 PM
#12
They normally ask what rpm you will allow them to pull to. Did they do that?
What was the HP with the 60lb injectors?
What was the HP on the 7000 rpm pull with 80lb injectors?
You do know that when you turn up the boost, you find out what shakes loose?
Did you sign something that said that you acknowledge that high HP cars sometimes fail?
What was the HP with the 60lb injectors?
What was the HP on the 7000 rpm pull with 80lb injectors?
You do know that when you turn up the boost, you find out what shakes loose?
Did you sign something that said that you acknowledge that high HP cars sometimes fail?