stylinexpat

There is something about some of the roads in Vegas that I find them very slippery. In california I can put the pedal to the metal in my Supercharged 330 while driving straight and it would never slip but if I were to do the same exact thing in vegas on one of their roads the whole rear end would come out spinning and I would probably also end up between two poles. Those roads or streets in vegas are awfully slippery. There is definitely something wrong with those streets.

Toxic Z

There are a couple of exercises where they turn the system off... but correct other than that ..

Z Fast

If I were them, I too would require all systems to be left on. Although I personly like to turn off TC/AH most of the times, I wouldn't want my wife driving the Z06 without them. The very low probability of the AH causing a problem is a much better bet than my wife's right foot. I won't even tell her how the button works.


I do feel the AH is a good systems, but I do believe it has the possibilty(a very low possibility) to cause a major issue. Although I normally drive with it off, Ido not turn it off because of the very low probabilty of a problem with the system. I do use it in cold and wet conditions, and if I was truly concerned with a failure, then I would never use it. I personnally like to dirve without it under good conditions. I firmly believe it is a good sysytem and that most should use it most of the time

AU N EGL

Correct. We acctully advise ppl NOT to use the brake and accelerator at the same time in the novice classes. Use only the accelerator for speed modulation or called Feathering the throttle.

Brake only in straight lines. There is too much going on and too much for the student in novice classes to learn trail braking or brake modulation in corners.

Brake modulation actully slows you down considerable and can be very dangorious as if the student lifts the accelertor and hits the brake too much, a SPIN will occure.

The other questions is "should use AH & TC, leave it ON or turn them OFF or comp mode?"

The answer to that question is "YES."

Leave AH &TC ON untill you can run good smooth lines around a race track WITHOUT having either AH or TC come on. Once you can run those consistant lines for a full session after sesson, then time to put the car into Comp mode.

Then again doing a number of HPDEs in Comp mode and again NOT have the AH activated. When a studnet can do these activites without AH or TC coming on to <koff> help or interfear with the student, then it is time to turn them complettly OFF.

How many HPDE weekends does this take?? 7 to 10 weekends in one year.

Or a studnet can just by pass those steps and just turn them off to begin with and learn with out the AH&TC aids. This is the best method of learning High Performance Driving.

and with the AH&TC turned off the brake pads and tires will not be used up as quickly.

Personnally I never let students trail brake in corners, UNTIL they can show me good smooth CONSISTANT lines about the track. Then we move to the next level.

When the AVERAGE driver or novice HPDE student goes into a spin, their normal reaction is to BRAKE and take the foot OFF the throttle.

NOT the right thing to do.
What the correct way is to LOOK were you want to go, Steer where you want to go, The hands follow the eyes. and give more thottle until the car hooks up. There may be a slight over compenstation but just correct that again

Here is where extesive wet skid pad time is wonderfull to play and learn.
I can spend a whole day playing ( trying differnt techniques and corrrections) on a wet skid pad, it would be a GOOD DAY.

Futfixr

You probably would.

Remeber, when driving in LV to use your snow cleats.....even in summer.

kawal

Yes, it did! Here's the link:

http://www.corvettemechanic.com/foru...read.php?t=302

The Z's owner would be driving normally down the road and for an unknown reason, the left front brake would start to apply. He narrowly missed being thrown into the center divider. A DIC message came on to service active handling.

He took the car into the dealer, who could find nothing wrong, but retrieved a number of codes. Still, the only "remedy" was to replace the left front wheel sensor (which had nothing to do with the problem). So his serious problem happened again, but fortunately there was no crash. This was all posted on another forum site, z06vette.com. With no solution, he was obviously scared to drive the car.

A forum member told him to post his incident on corvettemechanic.com, and after doing so, the technicians there diagnosed his problem from the codes and sub-codes (which are apparently very important). They narrowed it down to the yaw sensor and/or the electronic brake control module (EBCM). With the help of those technicians, the dealer agreed to replace the yaw sensor and try out the car (the technicians wanted both to be replaced).

A month later (on 1/2/07), the owner reported on the forum that his car just did two 360's on the interstate and again narrowly missed disaster. This time, Detroit immediately sent out two hotshot Corvette engineers who brought parts and a new EBCM from Bowling Green. These guys knew the car inside out and immediately went to the EBCM and found that the connector was not quite pushed in exactly right when it was built at Bowling Green. This intermittent problem caused the yaw sensor input to indicate that the car was sliding sideways, which then told the computer to apply the left front brake. They replaced the EBCM anyway and installed the connector properly. They also notified Bowling Green of the problem and Delco to correct the plug design so it couldn't happen again.

There are many more details in the story, and I found it fascinating, because of the talent and knowledge that these technicians and engineers have about our cars. But it took this talent a long time to get engaged in the problem.

The final solution was simple, but that very small plug issue caused a complete loss of control of the car.

Another note was that this owner's final 720 spin happened on a wet interstate, but the active handling system should have tried to prevent a spin, not cause it. There are many references in this thread to slippery roads, etc., but they may have no relevance to this incident - if it is similar to the other EBCM issue. If the driver was not accelerating hard, and he lost control for no apparent reason, the active handling system should never have put him sideways.

But only those computer codes, and someone with enough knowledge to understand them, can help resolve this mystery.

Janet Curran

[Quote:
Originally Posted by pajohns
.. when I was at Spring Mountain they talked about using the brake and accelerator while turning to adjust the traction to either the front or rear wheels (respectively).. this was in extreme moderation and using them only to maintain control .. not to accelerate or slow the car to any great extent.

Can I assume that this is NOT what you are talking about?

I truly appreciate all who have participated in this fabulous thread. I have read this thread in its entirety about four times and expect to read it again a number of times. Very Informative!!!QUOTE=AU N EGL;1559165841]Correct. We acctully advise ppl NOT to use the brake and accelerator at the same time in the novice classes. Use only the accelerator for speed modulation or called Feathering the throttle.
.[/QUOTE]

What PAjohns is talking about at Spring Mountain is balancing the car. A light touch on the brakes to bring the nose of the car down for turn in, OR a little throttle to add traction to the rear wheels. Looking where you want to go (your hands follow your eyes), balancing the car and being SMOOTH are all extremely important.

This is a great thread and should help people to ask more questions.

Janet Curran
www.racespringmountain.com
1.877VET4FUN

vetteship

I'm with Doc on this one. GM please tell us you've built enough redundancy in the system where it would default to "neutral" when the computer can't process the info given by it by the sensors properly.

allanlaw

Usually a reading that is off the normal scale, or does not coincide with another redundant reading (for example, the throttle position sensors), the car goes into a self-protective mode - reduced power, total shutoff, etc. However, if it gets an incorrect reading but within normal scale, such as with the steering position or wheel speed sensors, it will react in accordance with its normal programming. Many times on the track, if I've left traction control and/or active handling on by mistake, the active handling will interpret my skillful (?) drifts as a mishap waiting to happen, and clamp down on a single brake rotor (usually driver front on a clockwise track) screwing things up royally. That is an example of the sensors correctly reading the angles, speeds etc. leading to a bad result. The sensors could also read things incorrectly, but within normal scale (not unusual if the wheel speed or steering position sensors are not right) and do something bad, although codes are usually present when this happens. It is still not clear what happened to the OP - good data with bad result, bad data with bad result, driver error (sorry) or who knows what. Without the codes, this is a waste of time.

slgz06

Your posts are generally helpful, but they do tend toward an absolutist tone. In this post, for example, you should point out that LESS EXPERIENCED drivers should do all their braking before turning in. You made it sound like that is the only proper way to drive, when in fact most experienced track drivers us some combination of straight line and trail braking depending on the car and the conditions.
Just as you "accelerate" near the apex (a more accurate description would be to say a measured increase in throttle should generally begin at the end of the apex), you can "deccelerate" after turn in (more accurately described as a measured decrease in braking after turn in and before apex).


I have always been a trail braker, and have used it to great advantage track racing. There are, of course, times when I have not used it. When braking deep to the inside while passing at corner entry for example. In this case the corner was taken more slowly, but the competitor was passed, a good compromise.
My point is that racing, and fast street driving techniques should almost never be described in absolute terms.

outnumbered

What PAjohns is talking about at Spring Mountain is balancing the car. A light touch on the brakes to bring the nose of the car down for turn in, OR a little throttle to add traction to the rear wheels. Looking where you want to go (your hands follow your eyes), balancing the car and being SMOOTH are all extremely important.

This is a great thread and should help people to ask more questions.

Janet Curran
www.racespringmountain.com
1.877VET4FUN[/QUOTE]


This made a huge difference in my driving skills and comfort level. After
7 weekends of Hpde's, No ONE! taught me anything about balancing the car.

So the results were as I got faster, I got sloppier and very uncomfortable.

Spring Mountain IMO! is a must for beginners.

I will be back for level 2 and private lessons.



Dan

GTC

I have experienced panic mode and "reduced engine power" and "service traction system" dancing across the dic all too often. However, I have never experienced it going into a total shutoff mode. Has anybody experienced total shutoff because the computers get some bogus readings and it goes into a panic / self-protective mode?

kawal

I agree!

The driver of the other Z06 that went haywire (user name Zorvette) who posted on z06vette.com and corvettemechanic.com is trying to post on this forum as well, but he hasn't been able to yet. He is recommending that ICU812 post on the corvettemechanic.com site as well. There is already a thread started called Traction Control Failure Part II started at:

http://www.corvettemechanic.com/foru...ted=1#post2767

One of the high powered techs who diagnosed Zorvette's problem is named Chick, and after reading the first post (Zorvette's issue), she is pretty impressive.

Foosh

Thanks, and thanks for the feedback as well, and you're 100% correct. I was aiming it for 99.9% of the audience here. Yes, very skilled drivers can do a lot of things mere mortals cannot.

BTW, I am one of the mere mortals

allanlaw

That would be me, which is why I know about it. Inconsistent readings from the throttle position electronics caused a total engine shutdown and it could not be restarted. Yes, flatbed city - but after replacing the throttle body, all was well (in only one day).

tomato

You made me remember my trip to Vegas in my '03 ZO6 a couple of years ago...You are absolutely right! I noticed it near the strip. Just normal putting around felt like I was driving on a sheet of ice. Didn't appear to be oil or other stuff on the roads either...

Could be on to something.

Doctor Electron

As a driver that has logged 175,000 + miles in 4 corvettes since 1996 I realize that there is no where like the pilot’s seat to perfect driving skills, however; for those that would like a really good class room version of the physics of racing, you will find this link most exhilarating. Physics of Racings You have to go back to the index to see the whole series, the next button doesn’t work past chapter 12, there are 26 chapters total. It builds on the tradition of “Electroneze” type analysis so those that grunt when they see me asking “what if..” need not apply. It is written by Dr. Brian Beckman, an engineer for Microsoft who is or was, an avid member of the No Bucks Racing Club in California. What can I say, physics turns me on. They got me into the bungee business in the 90’s, yes sir; Global Bungee Authority Inc was a real ride, one even the Z cannot duplicate. Zero G’s can be as cool as lateral G’s for sure. And having a 50 ton crane with a 165 ft stick was like the ultimate Tonka toy. Those that venture down this particular rabbit hole, enjoy. Best mod for the buck, driver knowledge & skills enhancement!

All the Best,
Doc E.

stylinexpat

I am positive that there is something up with those streets in Vegas. Dubai is the same. Just apply a little gas and watch the thing slide. Apply a bit of brakes and it's just as bad if not worse. Would be like you went skiing or something. I'm no road engineer but the material or something in the Asphalt they use probably contains too much oil or something. In Dubai now they have some of the highest road deaths and accidents out there and I have noticed that there roads are way above average when it comes to being slippery. The vegas road is no different. I think some enquiry should be launched into this slippery road thing.

zorvette

I want to let you know that I had the exact same issues (different results-no wreck) and spun 720 degrees also among other issues. The problem was diagnosed after GM flew 2 engineers from detroit to where I am located (california). I think you should read the thread located at
http://www.corvettemechanic.com/foru...read.php?t=302 and if you want we can arrange a phone call. I can say that there was concern for another car (minimum) to have the same issue I did, which turned out to be a bad connection between the connector and the EBCM. This faulty connection was done in the factory during assy and was near impossible to see. Only when the car was on a lift and the engineer from the 'harness team' looked at it was the problem located.

The mis-connection caused a faulty signal to be sent to the EBCM as though the Yaw Sensor was seeing a maximum event of 75 degrees per second yaw rate in the positive direction (from drivers seat-rotation to right). The EBCM then did what it was supposed to do and added max braking to the left front wheel causing my spins and other event. Your description is identical to the events I had.

Please read the thread if you want and contact via either site.
Zorvette

C6Tim

He said he was "half throttle"... Half throttle in that monster is pretty significant.