pDz

wow.

that's good insight.

Notch

No, you still don't get it. The fact is, the best handling cars score well in BOTH subjective and objective assessments. Consider two cars...the one car that does not score "the best" in terms of objective assessments might score higher in the subjective assessments...well enough such that when the two categories are combined it ends up with a better overall ranking than the car that scored best in the objective assessments. "Best Handling" is a combination of objective and subjective assessments.

waltk88

It's scary that the GT3 can do so well on both the objective and subjective handling factors. I guess you get what you pay for.

bcmarly

Ah, now you've expanded the criteria to include both subjective and objective information. I feel like we're making progress here. If the best handling car according to objective criteria also happens to offer the best subjective experience then there's no doubt that would be one very good handling car. The reverse however would not constitute a good handling car.

The problem with subjective impressions is that they vary wildly from person to person. Road and Track has maintained in their assessment of the Z06 that it offers good road feel and driver feed back. Car and Driver, depending on the issue, has described the steering as numb and uncommunicative with a chassis that can be unsettling. Yet Car and Driver in its recent comparison of the Z06 to the Exige, and 997 GT3, described the Z06 in glowing terms. They attributed the change in feel and responsiveness to (non existent) new rear shocks. Tiff, a respected English automotive journalist who hosts a TV show in England called 5th Gear named the Z06 its "best fast car of the year."
Included in the comparison were several super cars including the DB9, the Murciallago 640LP and the new Ferrari Fiorano GTB. In his assessment of the Ferrari he asserted that the Z06 handled better on the track. Had there been an objective criteria his impressions might have been contradicted.

BlaznZ06

Wow! So, testers opinion means just as much as objective assessments?

I think people define best handling by their own requirements.

Race cars handle for crap at slow speed and excellent at speed.

Street cars handle well for their street purpose and marginal at best on the track.


The Z is fun on the track, but seat time is the key to get the best out of the car, as is R compound tires, and it could handle better with Motons. But, then this is just my subjective assessments.

SMFCPACFP

elanderholm

A good 'feeling' car isn't necessarily fast, and vice versa. they were obviously more interested in feel and ease of use and not just which car is fastest around a track. A lot of the people freaking out about this test have probably not driven even half of these cars on the street or track. Just because something is faster on track or street doesn't mean it handles better. I would guess the biggest reason the Z06 is faster then the Cayman S on the track is because it makes almost double the HP and not because it 'handles' better.

Notch

Making progress? Have you read any of my prior posts in this thread?? Here are some of the things I said...

"Because "handling" is comprised of more than just stopwatch times."

"handling is not all about things that are measured with a stopwatch or g-meter. Handling as a whole encompasses those traits that build driver confidence, provide for stability through the turn, and provide fun/meaningful/pleasurable steering wheel weighting and feedback."

"The real litmus test is asking the same driver if he were more confident turning the same time in another kind of sports car."

"I guess it's just that some people can only recognize the stopwatch/G-meter as qualifiers with regard to handling...if you're one of them, then you're not going to "get it" in terms of the other factors that contribute to "good handling"..."

I've been very consistent in stating that there is more to judging a car's handling than just the stopwatch or the g-meter.


I've never said the reverse were true.

And that's the reason people should not necessarily get bent out of shape about articles like the one in MT.

bcmarly

[QUOTE=Notch;.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcmarly
The problem with subjective impressions is that they vary wildly from person to person.

And that's the reason people should not necessarily get bent out of shape about articles like the one in MT.

Which goes to the heart of the matter: Objectivity vs. subjectivity.

Notch

They are both important considerations. It's the total of the mix that counts to some people...and MT took this same approach in their test.- the total mix. People are obviously free to base their handling judgements solely on objective data, but there are plenty of people who place more value in a wider view.

bcmarly

The "wider view." Oh please! We just established that auto jounalists are all over the place with their subjective feelings on handling. Car and Driver vs. Car and Driver, vs M&T vs Road and Track etc...and you're going to give credibility to their subjective evaluations!

Chris S

Wow, a lot of denial here!

JimBacus

I'm impressed with mine...

agentf1

Wow, just picked up the wife a 335i. It came in ahead of the Z06 Vette in 6th place.

heavychevy

I have to agree that handling is only subjective in the areas that the driver can determine the objective handling abilities of the car, for example if you look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_handling

the first part of handling is the driver and the drivers ability to make the car handle the way it's meant to, for example if your driving a car with tons of understeer, full steering wheel lock is not going to get max handling out of the car because it make the understeer worse.

A shifter cart handles better than any car there is, and it's the same concept as you go up in size, a smaller lighter car with better turning radius and ABILITY TO USE POWER IN TURNS (i.e. not corvette on stock tires) will be the better handling car (as long as it has a proper chasis and suspension setup).

Boulder GT3

Great car. Congratulations. Staggering brakes and precise handling. I still think they are awful (the 997 only a bit better) on the street but brilliant on the track. I've got one on order to replace my 996GT3.

IMO, while many of the comments about the Z have some validity, what's important is driving what you like and enjoy. The Z is very fast on the track and if that's key then you'll think it's a great handling car. I know many very good drivers that hate the engine hanging off the *** end design of a 911 and don't like the handling. To each his own. I'm faster and much more comfortable in a GT3 but like the Z as well.

I can't figure out some of the other cars in the test but I haven't driven them.

TAILWAG

IDOTS???????

Notch

I'm sure you understand that there is nothing that says all people must have the same subjective views. Do you expect every person in the world to like (a subjective call) the handling of the Vette over all other cars?

As I said, there is obviously nothing wrong with someone in the market to buy a sports car deciding to use just objective data as the sole litmus test to determine which car handles "better". For those folks, there would be no reason at all for them to test drive the car...the "numbers" would be the total story. Good for them. However, there are those (people in the market to buy a car) that place value on the subjective assessment (THEIR subjective assessment) of a car's handling - a wider view than those who use only objective data. For those people, a car magazine that offers subjective assessments can provide a platform from which they might identify factors that help them refine their buying decision - the subjective assessments from magazines can be used as a framework with which the potential buyer can develop references to use during a test drive - the "see for myself" approach. The magazine may have brought up handling issues that the buyer had not considered, and the buyer's test drives could confirm or dispel these issues.

I see nothing at all wrong with subjective information being published in car magazines, and I can see where this information may in fact help a buyer make a better informed decision.

xfifty

Are you kidding me. If you think Herr WW is spending the money wisely question yourself buying into VW that's not little money.

I'll find the reference and will post it.

TeddyFreddy

Average driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is bad!"

Good driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is good!"

Everything depends on the final objective. I guess the objective of Z06 is to go very fast not to make average drivers feel good