[Z06] WCCH Track Data !!!!
02-25-2013, 07:51 PM
#41
Former Vendor
I really do not know how many CHE valve guide/Solid SS valve setups we have done, but its been a lot, not including my own personal c6 z... we have not had one valvetrain instability issue or RPMing issue... My own personal (well my close friend bought it) c6 z runs a .661 lift cam with an aggressive Ramp rate on lobe, with the appropiate setup dual spring. It revs to 7400 rpm clean, has 20+ tracks days on it, and while making 640 rwhp! There is a lot of naysayers on here with he said/ she said data, and frankly unless you do this for a leaving and have seen things with your own two eyes, please stop trying to disprove things with pure speculation. The solid ss valve method may seem crude, but the results speak for themselves. This method flatout keeps these motors alive under abuse.
02-25-2013, 07:55 PM
#42
Thanks Paul, will do.
I can go on with discussing lobe side weight, but will save that for another day, another thread. In short, my personal opinion is to use a railroad tie for a pushrod if it improves stability, and to hell with the weight as I do not think it matters as much as conventional wisdom would have one believe.
I am in complete agreement with you on the valve weight, as is my head guy. The lightest solid SS valve is 20 grams heavier than the OE ex vlv. That slaughters revs at 7K. Any idiot with a calculator can figure that out...... But if doing that gives folks a piece of mind, then more power to them. I hope to here back today what my hollow stem options are. Most of the blanks come from Argentina, and apparently, there's some unrest in that part of the world that has hindered supply, so there is a six week min lead time on a custom piece. I may have to move to a 5/16" stem if I want to move away from OEM. And I'm inclined to stay OE at this point....
I can go on with discussing lobe side weight, but will save that for another day, another thread. In short, my personal opinion is to use a railroad tie for a pushrod if it improves stability, and to hell with the weight as I do not think it matters as much as conventional wisdom would have one believe.
I am in complete agreement with you on the valve weight, as is my head guy. The lightest solid SS valve is 20 grams heavier than the OE ex vlv. That slaughters revs at 7K. Any idiot with a calculator can figure that out...... But if doing that gives folks a piece of mind, then more power to them. I hope to here back today what my hollow stem options are. Most of the blanks come from Argentina, and apparently, there's some unrest in that part of the world that has hindered supply, so there is a six week min lead time on a custom piece. I may have to move to a 5/16" stem if I want to move away from OEM. And I'm inclined to stay OE at this point....
02-25-2013, 08:05 PM
#43
I really do not know how many CHE valve guide/Solid SS valve setups we have done, but its been a lot, not including my own personal c6 z... we have not had one valvetrain instability issue or RPMing issue... My own personal (well my close friend bought it) c6 z runs a .661 lift cam with an aggressive Ramp rate on lobe, with the appropiate setup dual spring. It revs to 7400 rpm clean, has 20+ tracks days on it, and while making 640 rwhp! There is a lot of naysayers on here with he said/ she said data, and frankly unless you do this for a leaving and have seen things with your own two eyes, please stop trying to disprove things with pure speculation. The solid ss valve method may seem crude, but the results speak for themselves. This method flatout keeps these motors alive under abuse.
There are several of your own customers out there who have these setups, and each time you do one, your reputation is on the line.
I've said this before, you guys who put food on your tables, and clothes on your kids backs, have a lot to lose if these setups don't work.
As such, I certainly trust your judgement when it comes to this matter.
I am running this setup in my own car, and have the utmost confidence in it.
As you know, we have run the full gamut here. From it's a geometry problem, and the development of a "tool" to determine if one has bad geometry. All the way up to that bastion of scientific research when it comes to this matter, the vaunted "wiggle test".
Oh snap, I'm sorry Mark, go ahead, what were you saying??
Yeah, yeah, yeah, any time, Mark, any time. Go and have fun with that.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 02-25-2013 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Said "geology", meant to say "geometry"
02-25-2013, 08:13 PM
#44
I really do not know how many CHE valve guide/Solid SS valve setups we have done, but its been a lot, not including my own personal c6 z... we have not had one valvetrain instability issue or RPMing issue... My own personal (well my close friend bought it) c6 z runs a .661 lift cam with an aggressive Ramp rate on lobe, with the appropiate setup dual spring. It revs to 7400 rpm clean, has 20+ tracks days on it, and while making 640 rwhp! There is a lot of naysayers on here with he said/ she said data, and frankly unless you do this for a leaving and have seen things with your own two eyes, please stop trying to disprove things with pure speculation. The solid ss valve method may seem crude, but the results speak for themselves. This method flatout keeps these motors alive under abuse.
Or perhaps those laws are just pure speculation
In any case, I think everyone gets it -- solid stem stainless valves are building up a good track record in the LS7, despite being a pretty radical departure from the OEM design on several fronts. There are not really any engineering tests to determine how well they are working, but they seem to be making good power up to redline without breaking anything. In some circles, that is considered an unqualified success. Congratulations
02-25-2013, 08:18 PM
#45
02-25-2013, 08:19 PM
#46
I really do not know how many CHE valve guide/Solid SS valve setups we have done, but its been a lot, not including my own personal c6 z... we have not had one valvetrain instability issue or RPMing issue... My own personal (well my close friend bought it) c6 z runs a .661 lift cam with an aggressive Ramp rate on lobe, with the appropiate setup dual spring. It revs to 7400 rpm clean, has 20+ tracks days on it, and while making 640 rwhp! There is a lot of naysayers on here with he said/ she said data, and frankly unless you do this for a leaving and have seen things with your own two eyes, please stop trying to disprove things with pure speculation. The solid ss valve method may seem crude, but the results speak for themselves. This method flatout keeps these motors alive under abuse.
Then when I spoke to WCCH not long after, they hands down recommended SS valves over both OE and Ti valves.
Two experts with two very strong recommendations for SS valves. I was previously torn on using the lighter Ti valves but it was pretty clear to me what to do after that.
02-25-2013, 08:20 PM
#47
Michael
I never got involved in those arguments as they were beyond my knowledge base. But they certainly did stick in my mind. And I was concerned enough to querry both my specialty shop (CMS) and WCCH. Richard said it would be impossible to tell a differnce.
I have done what I can to help bring useful data to the forum. I think the sound comparison let guys see that the beefed up heads sound great although technically a little louder.
The only way I had to indirectly prove that my motor is spinning up the same as before was to look at my final speed (which also corresponds to 4th gear redline)at a specific point of the track and compare it to many previous times at the same track.
Do you feel this is a valid methodology ?
DH
I never got involved in those arguments as they were beyond my knowledge base. But they certainly did stick in my mind. And I was concerned enough to querry both my specialty shop (CMS) and WCCH. Richard said it would be impossible to tell a differnce.
I have done what I can to help bring useful data to the forum. I think the sound comparison let guys see that the beefed up heads sound great although technically a little louder.
The only way I had to indirectly prove that my motor is spinning up the same as before was to look at my final speed (which also corresponds to 4th gear redline)at a specific point of the track and compare it to many previous times at the same track.
Do you feel this is a valid methodology ?
DH
Engine acceleration rate can only be quantified with any sort of reliable information on an engine dyno. I would be amazed to see a noteworthy % rate of change with a slightly heavier valve, correct springs and the same camshaft. Swap the cam and that’s a whole different ball game, but more is at play that “just” valve motion when you make those changes. You’d see more of a change in acceleration rate with a different flywheel than just swapping valves. That has not been my argument. My argument is peak RPM. Not fuel cut off rev limited peak RPM, but what the engine can safely spin up to without putting the valve train into the territory of instability. I do not know what the peak RPM is when moving to a heavier valve in this engine, and not getting too crazy with cam profiles and aggressive springs. Until some data can be collected, it is anyone’s guess. About the only thing you can go off of are success stories from others.
Have you ever missed an up shift to second or third at WOT and pegged the fuel cut off?? If so, what RPM did the engine reach?? If it did not climb past 7300 or so, you’re probably OK with your set up. I have seen 7600 before “with my own two eyes”, and that was with the stock fuel cut off settings. That was with an aftermarket cam and springs though.
I don’t do C6 cam swaps or tune cars for a living, so I reckon I better just STFU now. I have no f’ing idea what it is I’m talking about. I have a plane to catch anyway.
02-25-2013, 08:23 PM
#48
Quick, surely you know the problem with pretending to be dumb, don't you?
02-25-2013, 08:26 PM
#49
Funny enough, my builder/tuner said something very similar. When I brought up a lot of this stuff, including the valve weights, he called the forums 'dangerous' and instead of worrying about I read on the internet, he recommended that I listen to the advice of people who do this stuff all day, every day. [...]
02-25-2013, 08:29 PM
#50
....
In any case, I think everyone gets it -- solid stem stainless valves are building up a good track record in the LS7, despite being a pretty radical departure from the OEM design on several fronts. There are not really any engineering tests to determine how well they are working, but they seem to be making good power up to redline without breaking anything.
In any case, I think everyone gets it -- solid stem stainless valves are building up a good track record in the LS7, despite being a pretty radical departure from the OEM design on several fronts. There are not really any engineering tests to determine how well they are working, but they seem to be making good power up to redline without breaking anything.
It looked a little something like this:
http://2012photoaday.wordpress.com/2...roject365-219/
Well, the time came, when that peach seed had to be eliminated, and unfortunately for the canine, and as fate would have it, the peach pit, well, it took a sideways orientation at the last minute and at the last few inches prior to it's exit.
Tears streamed from the creature's eyes as he "worked".
I don't know why I thought of that story, when I read what you had to say above, and where you are now forced to admit:
....
In any case, I think everyone gets it -- solid stem stainless valves are building up a good track record in the LS7, despite being a pretty radical departure from the OEM design on several fronts. There are not really any engineering tests to determine how well they are working, but they seem to be making good power up to redline without breaking anything.
In any case, I think everyone gets it -- solid stem stainless valves are building up a good track record in the LS7, despite being a pretty radical departure from the OEM design on several fronts. There are not really any engineering tests to determine how well they are working, but they seem to be making good power up to redline without breaking anything.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 02-26-2013 at 12:59 AM.
02-25-2013, 08:32 PM
#51
Instructor
Congrats Howie - that's gotta be satisfying !
Thanks for the post and thanks Quick for posting the links.
Btw, I'll be going the WCCH route as well, but does anyone know of a Shop
with Cunningham Motorsports' level of expertise in North Florida ?? Thanks -
Thanks for the post and thanks Quick for posting the links.
Btw, I'll be going the WCCH route as well, but does anyone know of a Shop
with Cunningham Motorsports' level of expertise in North Florida ?? Thanks -
02-25-2013, 08:38 PM
#52
Your mileage may vary
02-25-2013, 08:41 PM
#53
Good point.However, GM clearly has an ulterior motive behind their statement. They don't want to pay up.
While folks like my builder and WCCH don't care which valve I use. They make money on the service, not the parts they're recommending. They were willing to go with whatever valve I wanted, but when I asked them for a recommendation, it was quite clear SS was their preference.
02-25-2013, 08:45 PM
#54
Interesting approach Mark.
Good point.However, GM clearly has an ulterior motive behind their statement. They don't want to pay up.
While folks like my builder and WCCH don't care which valve I use. They make money on the service, not the parts they're recommending. They were willing to go with whatever valve I wanted, but when I asked them for a recommendation, it was quite clear SS was their preference.
The people doing your heads, are going to get paid no matter which valve option you choose.
In fact, they would have gotten paid more had they let you go ahead with, or talked you into, Ti/Mo exhaust valves, but they didn't.
GM OTOH, like you say, has a different motive.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 02-26-2013 at 06:43 PM.
02-25-2013, 08:48 PM
#55
Former Vendor
Engine acceleration rate can only be quantified with any sort of reliable information on an engine dyno. I would be amazed to see a noteworthy % rate of change with a slightly heavier valve, correct springs and the same camshaft. Swap the cam and that’s a whole different ball game, but more is at play that “just” valve motion when you make those changes. You’d see more of a change in acceleration rate with a different flywheel than just swapping valves. That has not been my argument. My argument is peak RPM. Not fuel cut off rev limited peak RPM, but what the engine can safely spin up to without putting the valve train into the territory of instability. I do not know what the peak RPM is when moving to a heavier valve in this engine, and not getting too crazy with cam profiles and aggressive springs. Until some data can be collected, it is anyone’s guess. About the only thing you can go off of are success stories from others.
Have you ever missed an up shift to second or third at WOT and pegged the fuel cut off?? If so, what RPM did the engine reach?? If it did not climb past 7300 or so, you’re probably OK with your set up. I have seen 7600 before “with my own two eyes”, and that was with the stock fuel cut off settings. That was with an aftermarket cam and springs though.
I don’t do C6 cam swaps or tune cars for a living, so I reckon I better just STFU now. I have no f’ing idea what it is I’m talking about. I have a plane to catch anyway.
Have you ever missed an up shift to second or third at WOT and pegged the fuel cut off?? If so, what RPM did the engine reach?? If it did not climb past 7300 or so, you’re probably OK with your set up. I have seen 7600 before “with my own two eyes”, and that was with the stock fuel cut off settings. That was with an aftermarket cam and springs though.
I don’t do C6 cam swaps or tune cars for a living, so I reckon I better just STFU now. I have no f’ing idea what it is I’m talking about. I have a plane to catch anyway.
02-25-2013, 08:51 PM
#56
Former Vendor
I dont know how close you are to Redline Motorsports, but Howard and Jay over there can easily take care of you.
02-25-2013, 09:05 PM
#57
Instructor
02-26-2013, 12:10 AM
#58
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie, I have to say that I am impressed not only by your results, but in how you have documented the whole thing.
All 4 of your threads, linked to below, and in regard to your new setup, have been informative, no nonsense threads which have erased some of the mistique, myths and misconceptions about this particular approach to the LS7 valve train issue.
Now, people can make up their minds with FACTS, instead of a lot of theories being bandied about.
This is undoubtedly, a safe and effective method of dealing with the LS7 valve train issue.
And I, for one, thank you for your efforts, and your attention to detail in your documentation.
Thanks Howie.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...pictorial.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...installed.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...ock-heads.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...rack-data.html
All 4 of your threads, linked to below, and in regard to your new setup, have been informative, no nonsense threads which have erased some of the mistique, myths and misconceptions about this particular approach to the LS7 valve train issue.
Now, people can make up their minds with FACTS, instead of a lot of theories being bandied about.
This is undoubtedly, a safe and effective method of dealing with the LS7 valve train issue.
And I, for one, thank you for your efforts, and your attention to detail in your documentation.
Thanks Howie.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...pictorial.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...installed.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...ock-heads.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...rack-data.html
DH
02-26-2013, 12:12 AM
#59
2. Have you done a guide upgrade only? (retaining OEM exhaust valves). What is your opinion on the OEM exhaust valve? Is it safe?
3. This one is open to anyone that does heads for a living -- is there any downside regarding combustion chamber temps when exchanging the hollow sodium valve for a solid stem valve? If not, why in the world are the GM engineers specifying a sodium valve, which is designed to transfer more heat out of the combustion chamber than a non-sodium valve (solid or hollow)?
02-26-2013, 12:22 AM
#60
Team Owner
Thread Starter
It was near the beginning of the first video. I suspected you had street tires due to the squealing in a couple of the corners. A setup Bimmer would definitely leave you in the corners if you were on street tires. At the Glen I can run them down if I am on track tires but they eat me alive if I am on street tires.
Bill
Bill
I gave him a point by on the inside. I don't remember exactly what that car had but you can see that it was race prepped with wing, suspension and tires. Plus you could see the way he pulled that it was not a stock motored BMW
Usually I catch all those guys on the long straight and I can hold 130mph thru the NASCAR turn. But the wind which has never been a factor there destroyed my confidence at end of straight and the whole Nacar turn. There were many guys (obviously this one too) who didn't seem to be bothered by the wind at all. My best time was in the next session (2nd video) and even that was 1.5 seconds off my PB
DH