[Z06] FIXED Heads Red Lined at Track !!!
01-28-2014, 05:57 PM
#41
While I don't get to the track as often as Howie (something about living in Minnesota where we have six months of winter) I do have 6 track days on my WCCH heads and hundreds of redline (7100 rpm) shifts. I plan to do about 6 to 8 more track days this summer and then have the valve springs replaced and heads checked next winter. (Knocking on wood). Katech's findings on ss exhaust valves do concern me, but WCCH's experience with this combination on dozens or more LS7s that see regular track use was what convinced me to try them.
I had my car on the dyno when the heads were first installed and then again last fall after the track days and about 8000 miles total. It first did 555 rwhp and in the fall did 564 rwhp. Car was still making 550 rwhp at the 7100 rpm redline. Does anyone know if an LS7 would make 97% of peak hp at redline if the valves were floating or doesn't that mean anything?
I had my car on the dyno when the heads were first installed and then again last fall after the track days and about 8000 miles total. It first did 555 rwhp and in the fall did 564 rwhp. Car was still making 550 rwhp at the 7100 rpm redline. Does anyone know if an LS7 would make 97% of peak hp at redline if the valves were floating or doesn't that mean anything?
The Spintron tests pretty much validated the spring/valve combo as regards to float, but not to bounce. Of course, to hear the devoted tell it, the Spintron tests are meaningless or rigged. So again, there is no point in discussing it. If anyone wants technical info on valvetrains, I suggest they shop at another forum.
If anyone really wants to validate a particular fix, then put a couple hours on the engine at 7000 RPM (not a couple hours at 4000 RPM with maybe a dozen spurts to 7000), tear the heads down, and make some inspections/measurements. That's the way the pros do it. Or use a Spintron, but we all already know that's out
.
Last edited by Vette_DD; 01-29-2014 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Deleted inappropriate language
01-28-2014, 06:13 PM
#42
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Ditto...except with so far under 87k mileage I still wouldn't be impressed.
I'll be impressed with WCCH if Howie's engine blows after 87k of hard track use and Richard steps up to the plate and GIVES him a completely new engine for FREE
Thing is, I wonder how Richard will feel after he GIVES Howie a complete new engine and Howie STILL bad mouths him all over the internet, surely the bromance will end at that point
Cheers, Paul.
I'll be impressed with WCCH if Howie's engine blows after 87k of hard track use and Richard steps up to the plate and GIVES him a completely new engine for FREE
Thing is, I wonder how Richard will feel after he GIVES Howie a complete new engine and Howie STILL bad mouths him all over the internet, surely the bromance will end at that point
Cheers, Paul.
DH
01-28-2014, 06:15 PM
#43
Team Owner
Thread Starter
DH people can say whatever but u proved them wrong but ls7 does not need to be reved to 7000 these cars benefit power at 6400 6700 I have tracked mine at done tests no need..to but hey if people get mad oh well drive it to 1500rpm and shift slow....maybe it won't break...
DH
01-28-2014, 06:19 PM
#44
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Not really interested in an debate, but you've misunderstood the post of mine you quoted.
According to several people here, his SS valves were going to float, snap valve springs, and destroy his engine once it was running higher RPM and driven hard a track days.
Assuming 5 sessions each day at 20 minutes a pop, his 13 track days is almost enough to complete a 24 hour race. Yet it's still fine.
His OEM heads didn't have the valvetrain stress that concerns so many people here, so the comparison to his original heads/mileage isn't a valid. This is about the valve float and not guide wear (which to my knowledge, hasn't been measured). This is apples and oranges.
I hope he gets much more service life out of them, but to prove that, it will take time. But people here are very impatient and demand 100k + 100 track days immediately. I find that the fact hes got 13 track days and 24k miles on them on these new heads so far is quite remarkable. My car took over 7 years to get to 24k miles.
I find these early results to be extremely positive and I'm looking forward to hearing updates from Howie. The amount of time he gets on his heads in that environment reflects the durability of his current setup. The more time he can put on the engine the higher the perceived durability. This will take time.
According to several people here, his SS valves were going to float, snap valve springs, and destroy his engine once it was running higher RPM and driven hard a track days.
Assuming 5 sessions each day at 20 minutes a pop, his 13 track days is almost enough to complete a 24 hour race. Yet it's still fine.
His OEM heads didn't have the valvetrain stress that concerns so many people here, so the comparison to his original heads/mileage isn't a valid. This is about the valve float and not guide wear (which to my knowledge, hasn't been measured). This is apples and oranges.
I hope he gets much more service life out of them, but to prove that, it will take time. But people here are very impatient and demand 100k + 100 track days immediately. I find that the fact hes got 13 track days and 24k miles on them on these new heads so far is quite remarkable. My car took over 7 years to get to 24k miles.
I find these early results to be extremely positive and I'm looking forward to hearing updates from Howie. The amount of time he gets on his heads in that environment reflects the durability of his current setup. The more time he can put on the engine the higher the perceived durability. This will take time.
DH
01-28-2014, 06:25 PM
#45
Team Owner
Thread Starter
While I don't get to the track as often as Howie (something about living in Minnesota where we have six months of winter) I do have 6 track days on my WCCH heads and hundreds of redline (7100 rpm) shifts. I plan to do about 6 to 8 more track days this summer and then have the valve springs replaced and heads checked next winter. (Knocking on wood). Katech's findings on ss exhaust valves do concern me, but WCCH's experience with this combination on dozens or more LS7s that see regular track use was what convinced me to try them.
I had my car on the dyno when the heads were first installed and then again last fall after the track days and about 8000 miles total. It first did 555 rwhp and in the fall did 564 rwhp. Car was still making 550 rwhp at the 7100 rpm redline. Does anyone know if an LS7 would make 97% of peak hp at redline if the valves were floating or doesn't that mean anything?
I had my car on the dyno when the heads were first installed and then again last fall after the track days and about 8000 miles total. It first did 555 rwhp and in the fall did 564 rwhp. Car was still making 550 rwhp at the 7100 rpm redline. Does anyone know if an LS7 would make 97% of peak hp at redline if the valves were floating or doesn't that mean anything?
And great question !!
DH
01-28-2014, 06:27 PM
#46
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I hit my redline on the track all the time but my redline is 6500 RPM 
after installing SS exhaust valves. That's what I'm comfortable with given the increased weight of the valve train. Although i did 3 runs on the drag strip that did go to 7000 just to see how it did. At the track I shift at 6500 because i sleep better at night that way.
after installing SS exhaust valves. That's what I'm comfortable with given the increased weight of the valve train. Although i did 3 runs on the drag strip that did go to 7000 just to see how it did. At the track I shift at 6500 because i sleep better at night that way.Thats a joke !!!!!!!!!
DH
01-28-2014, 06:37 PM
#47
Melting Slicks
Not really interested in an debate, but you've misunderstood the post of mine you quoted.
According to several people here, his SS valves were going to float, snap valve springs, and destroy his engine once it was running higher RPM and driven hard a track days.
Assuming 5 sessions each day at 20 minutes a pop, his 13 track days is almost enough to complete a 24 hour race. Yet it's still fine.
His OEM heads didn't have the valvetrain stress that concerns so many people here, so the comparison to his original heads/mileage isn't a valid. This is about the valve float and not guide wear (which to my knowledge, hasn't been measured). This is apples and oranges.
I hope he gets much more service life out of them, but to prove that, it will take time. But people here are very impatient and demand 100k + 100 track days immediately. I find that the fact hes got 13 track days and 24k miles on them on these new heads so far is quite remarkable. My car took over 7 years to get to 24k miles.
I find these early results to be extremely positive and I'm looking forward to hearing updates from Howie. The amount of time he gets on his heads in that environment reflects the durability of his current setup. The more time he can put on the engine the higher the perceived durability. This will take time.
According to several people here, his SS valves were going to float, snap valve springs, and destroy his engine once it was running higher RPM and driven hard a track days.
Assuming 5 sessions each day at 20 minutes a pop, his 13 track days is almost enough to complete a 24 hour race. Yet it's still fine.
His OEM heads didn't have the valvetrain stress that concerns so many people here, so the comparison to his original heads/mileage isn't a valid. This is about the valve float and not guide wear (which to my knowledge, hasn't been measured). This is apples and oranges.
I hope he gets much more service life out of them, but to prove that, it will take time. But people here are very impatient and demand 100k + 100 track days immediately. I find that the fact hes got 13 track days and 24k miles on them on these new heads so far is quite remarkable. My car took over 7 years to get to 24k miles.
I find these early results to be extremely positive and I'm looking forward to hearing updates from Howie. The amount of time he gets on his heads in that environment reflects the durability of his current setup. The more time he can put on the engine the higher the perceived durability. This will take time.
You seem to be doing your fair share of cutesy comments and adding your opinion for someone not looking for a debate.
No one said anything about float or really anything you said above. None that I can remember. Can you please quote that for me? From what I have seen and read the bounce was higher than what would be considered satisfactory or stable to Katech after they ran their tests. They stated that the consequences would be unknown over time and they don't recommend running that setup. 24K miles without inspection tells us nothing. So coming to any conclusions without some type of tear down is silly. You're free to do it though.
The OEM Valetrain was compared to what he considers a "Fixed" head. The reason he has come to this conclusion is it hasn't blown up yet. Nothing more. As stated his OEM Valvetrain went 86K miles as well without blowing up. It is absolutely a valid comparison. When he makes the comment that his heads are "Fixed" he is absolutely comparing his OEM heads to his WCCH heads. Its apples to apples. Sorry.
People aren't impatient. If anyone is being impatient its Howie by making premature "Fixed" statements. Everyone else is in a waiting period. Howie seems to think hes fixed and I have yet to see anything to back that up other than words and 24K miles. Again, he got 86K miles out of his OEM setup with the same type of track abuse. He went with the WCCH heads to "Fix" the OEM heads.
I have plenty of time and hope he gets lots of life out of those heads as well. I am in fact being patient and not making threads about fixed heads.
01-28-2014, 06:40 PM
#48
Team Owner
Thread Starter
If anyone really wants to validate a particular fix, then put a couple hours on the engine at 7000 RPM (not a couple hours at 4000 RPM with maybe a dozen spurts to 7000), tear the heads down, and make some inspections/measurements. That's the way the pros do it. Or use a Spintron, but we all already know that's out
.
.
Wait, I'm bored so I will give it a try ..........
10 laps per session
4 sessions per day
2 seconds at 7K
Thats 80 seconds per day
Lets just make that 2 minutes in case there are more laps or a track with more opertunities to hit red line.
So 2 minutes of 7K every time I go to the track (I'm sure this is way more than actual)
So I need 30 track days to hit one hour or 60 to hit the two hours mentioned.
At 12 track days a year it will take me 5 years (MINIMUM)
I will post back then
DH
01-28-2014, 06:45 PM
#50
Melting Slicks
Cheers, Paul.
01-28-2014, 06:49 PM
#51
Thank you. I got a rash of crap because that last track day led some to believe that I was afraid of these issues. I am not. All I did if anyone cares to read my OP is to point this out with video to prove it. Then these same guys that have to eat crow want to get all defensive about it
Curious as to the validity of his claim, I took a look at one of his data-overlaid track videos. Each lap was mostly run in 3rd gear between about 3500-5200 RPM, with a couple short bursts up to about 6100 RPM (in 3rd), a start-finish line crossing at 6200 RPM in 4th, and one 3-4 upshift at 6700-6800 RPM. Except for that last part (upshift) all that is not very taxing for any LS valvetrain... LS1-2-3-6-7-9, so it is hardly a proof-of-concept validation for heavier valves/springs.
01-28-2014, 06:51 PM
#52
01-28-2014, 06:57 PM
#53
Team Owner
Thread Starter
No of course not. BUT if he has a valve related failure (the whole point of this thread...guess you weren't paying attention) which took out the entire engine you can be sure Richard wont be replacing it after 87,000 miles and 45 track days the way GM did the last time Howie had a valve related failure. Of course if Richard didn't give Howie a new engine, you could hardly blame him, assuming he had an idea of what good doing so did GM
Cheers, Paul.
Cheers, Paul.
Having said that I love my Corvette and the 5 that preceded it. And I cannot imagine driving anything but a Corvette, made by GM. That does not mean I cannot beef up parts of my Corvette wether it be axels. transmissions, cooling or heads. So in the same vain I will always have Richard's heads in my Corvettes.
Please stop making these dispicable assertions. It is a personal attack. You know better and it is demeaning yourself.
DH
01-28-2014, 07:02 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
But what happens if Richard doesn't give you a new engine the way GM did???
My apologises IF I have misrepresented your dissatisfaction and anger with GM, maybe my memory is failing me???
Cheers, Paul.
Last edited by MTIRC6Z; 01-28-2014 at 07:06 PM.
01-28-2014, 07:09 PM
#55
Don't really want to debate and how you interpret my comments is up to you. Tone is hard to gauge online but I can tell you its not what you think.
Pretty sure there were concerns about float/bounce at high RPM months back. I don't really follow that stuff anymore and don't care to try to prove anything here.
Anyway, like I said, not interested in a debate. I'm glad Howie is posting this stuff and I am very encouraged by his results. He is doing what he can to help validate what he thinks the fix is.
01-28-2014, 07:24 PM
#56
Hyperbole (i.e., never happened). AKA B.S. Don't need to gauge tone to determine that.
01-28-2014, 07:30 PM
#57
Are you saying no one has said this or had similar concerns about SS valves?
01-28-2014, 07:42 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
You are confusing floating with bouncing. Many people confuse many things around here, which is why it is pretty much pointless to try and engage in any type of technical discussion... it just winds up being a dick measuring (bragging) contest.
The Spintron tests pretty much validated the spring/valve combo as regards to float, but not to bounce. Of course, to hear the devoted tell it, the Spintron tests are meaningless or rigged. So again, there is no point in discussing it. If anyone wants technical info on valvetrains, I suggest they shop at another forum.
If anyone really wants to validate a particular fix, then put a couple hours on the engine at 7000 RPM (not a couple hours at 4000 RPM with maybe a dozen spurts to 7000), tear the heads down, and make some inspections/measurements. That's the way the pros do it. Or use a Spintron, but we all already know that's out
.
The Spintron tests pretty much validated the spring/valve combo as regards to float, but not to bounce. Of course, to hear the devoted tell it, the Spintron tests are meaningless or rigged. So again, there is no point in discussing it. If anyone wants technical info on valvetrains, I suggest they shop at another forum.
If anyone really wants to validate a particular fix, then put a couple hours on the engine at 7000 RPM (not a couple hours at 4000 RPM with maybe a dozen spurts to 7000), tear the heads down, and make some inspections/measurements. That's the way the pros do it. Or use a Spintron, but we all already know that's out
.
Consideration for when a valve is out of control is subject to debate, however .015" of bounce is the basis we will use these recommendations.
INTAKE: see configuration 1
EXHAUST: .015" max bounce @ 7100RPM, tested up to 7500RPM
Install height: 1.950"
Seat: 113#
Open: 323#
Katech's recommendation: This combination is fine for a street car if you set your rev limiter to 7000RPM. In road racing conditions we prefer to see 500-800RPM of safety margin so if you plan on road racing with this combination our recommendation is to set the rev limiter to 6300-6600RPM.
3. Stock cam/dual springs, solid stainless exhaust valve
INTAKE: .014" max bounce @ 7300RPM, tested up to 7500RPM
EXHAUST: .016" max bounce @ 7200RPM, tested up to 7500RPM
Install height: 1.700"
Seat: 187#
Open: 417#
Katech's recommendation: This combination is fine for a street car if you set your rev limiter to 7000RPM. If road racing, set the rev limiter to 6400-6700RPM.
Most of us have street cars so even Katech is ok with a 7k redline with the above setups, but DH is clearly a road racer even among those who casually track their cars. The only difference with DH is that he has accepted risk on the margin of safety between his redline and where valve bounce passes 0.015". That doesn't even take into consideration that the valve bounce peaks at 0.015"/0.016" and then decreases according to the Katech bounce plots.
So it isn't so much about the bounce, but margin of safety one is comfortable with.
Last edited by Rock36; 01-28-2014 at 07:45 PM.
01-28-2014, 07:56 PM
#59
Safety Car
01-28-2014, 10:11 PM
#60
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I'm sure Richard will be relieved to know you aren't the kind of person to treat him the same way you treated GM if your engine fails exactly the same way
But what happens if Richard doesn't give you a new engine the way GM did???
My apologises IF I have misrepresented your dissatisfaction and anger with GM, maybe my memory is failing me???
Cheers, Paul.
But what happens if Richard doesn't give you a new engine the way GM did???
My apologises IF I have misrepresented your dissatisfaction and anger with GM, maybe my memory is failing me???
Cheers, Paul.
You must have missed the posting where I replied to you:
If anyone cares they can look back and see that I gave high accolades to GM for replacing my motor that blew up BEFORE the stated warranty. I also did the same everytime they replaced another members motor. As time passed and everyone agreed that there is a problem that GM is responsible for (whatever you believe it to be) I too have admonished them for it.
Having said that I love my Corvette and the 5 that preceded it. And I cannot imagine driving anything but a Corvette, made by GM. That does not mean I cannot beef up parts of my Corvette wether it be axels. transmissions, cooling or heads. So in the same vain I will always have Richard's heads in my Corvettes.
Please stop making these dispicable assertions. It is a personal attack. You know better and it is demeaning yourself.
And you can also stop your false characterizations of what I feel about GM. I have NO ANGER. I do feel they are responsible for the head issue that we all are living with .......... just like almost every other member here !!!
And I would NOT expect Richard to buy me a new motor.....
DH