LouieM

This all makes sense to me. Adding $25K to the cost of a base Vette would drive away half of its potential buyers, including me. The fundamental impracticality of a midengine design for an everyday car strongly argues against this design' I LIKE the engine in front.

32valves

the comments in this thread are funny.


Given how short the LS engines are or could be made to be......GM would have no issues designing a practical car. Mid engined cars do not have to have "more interior noise", "cabin heat", or less luggage space than a front engined car. There is also nothing inherently more expensive about putting the engine behind the driver.

TLGunman

Zoxxo

Change is inevitable.

I don't know why it's assumed that this is the case. There is nothing inherent in a mid-engine car that makes it more expensive. Indeed, the economy of scale that GM can bring to this would assist in making it more possible to keep the price down.

Well, it is a business they are running, right? They market automobiles.

This supposed goal was never stated by GM. It was stated by the (somewhat delusionally optimistic) author of the opinion piece.

Z//

robvuk

I see this all the time but the fact is that GM has already produced a very good rear engine car for cheap. I guess no one remembers the Fiero.

w1ctc

Sounds just like 1962, 1968, 1982. The end is near and
Corvette is going to Hell.

Zoxxo

Only marginally on topic but very interesting nonetheless, is this pair of articles on the future of supercars:

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto...hnology/39622/

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto...hnology/39671/

GM and Corvette will have to go in a similar direction. The Corvette can either lead or it can follow...

Z//

tome

About 6 months ago I did an auto clinic here in So Calif and it was comparing all the different sports/2 seat upper end cars. There was a detailed evaluation on 3 mid-engine proposed car designs with a specification sheet outlining target performance. Sheet said to assume good luggage space and or room for 2 sets of clubs, V8 power at around 450. They had three full size drawings on the wall, each a different design, and then a couple of other makes in the flesh for us to crawl in and out of to say what we liked and didn't like. Cars DEFINATELY had Corvette inspired look with just a hint of Viper on the rear end view. Most of the people there were Corvette owners. Was it GM? Don't know, but now I am more convinced it was. Wish now that I had taken better notes......

Tom400CFI

I'll tell you why it's "assumed". Because it was stated by the OP that, and I quote:
"the new car will have a target base price that's very close to a loaded Corvette convertible of today"

That's 50% MORE than the current base price, and for many (like me), it's not attainable.

Zoxxo

The Original Poster simply reprinted a piece from a "blogger." (translation: "I can say anything at all on the internet and lots of people will take it as fact" and, much like an astrologer, he will crow about the one time he guessed right and forget about the 100 times he guessed wrong.) The blogger says that he knows things and has seen things but as others have pointed out, this is all total speculation based on nothing but what one person has told us. No concrete evidence whatsoever. I'm not sure why we should believe any of this.

That said, if any of it is true (and we've been hearing about mid-engine Corvettes forever) it's just as easy to say that GM could do exactly the same thing with a mid-engine car that they do with the current car - sell a base 400 hp car that sells many copies and a "Z06" that's higher performance and "extra". And that makes a whole lot more sense than the idea that they intend to jack the price of all Corvettes by 50%. That would cost them sales for sure,

GM is a business. They aren't going to shoot the Corvette's success over something like this. They know what they have in the Corvette and any such change would have to make economic, marketing, and technical sense.

Z//

I Bin Therbefor

"Corvette from the Inside" by McLellan who has some interesting things to say about a mid-rear engined Corvette. Among them is that at that point in time the mid-rear car came out 100lbs lighter. By the way, it was a side winder. But the chassis design is of the C6 type, with a backbone tube and easier to execute than a C6 because the engine and drive wheels are co located.

GM raced a Corvette GTP car which was mid-rear engined, turbo V6 powered and at the end , V8 powered. British chassis. Too many engineer's goldplated screw drivers and not enough racer. Blindingly fast as a qualifier. This engine was mounted long wise.

The question to me is, how is the engine mounted and how did GM handle the trans? Corvette can not afford its own trans program. As for the chassis, look at the Corvette Indy, piece of cake.

If desired, this design, mid-rear, can be suspension tuned to oversteer with the best of them! If desired!

Zivnuska

The autoextremist (Peter DeLorenzo) has a long history in the auto business and is very well connected. He also revealed many of the C6 and C6 Z06 details (power, components, price) long before others knew of them. His Z06 information in 2003 (500hp, $65k, carbon fiber parts) was responsible for me waiting for the C6 Z06 that I got in 2006.

funshipone

I have owned a Mid Engine Ferrari of course was a 1984 308 GTS QV and the cabin was very warm, but sound deading and heat shielding material has improved a lot from 1984.
What is interesting about this topic is the latest 3 cars Ferrari has brought out are front engine cars 612, 599 and soon to be new Maserati Gran Turismo.

niphilli2

Agreed, especially on count #1. Adding 20K to the base price of a vette would have a dramatic impact on the entire performance image of the GM brand. It would take me out of the equation. The new C6Z06 took me out of the equation, but the fundamental that they did not violate is that the C6Z51 is everything that the C5 Z06 was from a performance standpoint, and that vehicle is still in the equation for buyers such as me (80% of the corvette population).

This entire post only confirms one thing to me: GM is still being run by bean counters. The engineers and marketing folks see the signifigance of a mid-engine technological showcase, but the bean counters will not allow them to move forward unless it is cost justified. So what do they do? Please dont cut off your nose to spite your face, please dont design the entire Corvette marquis around 20% of your customer base without providing a product for the 80%ers like myself.

-vet

612 and 599 are indeed 'front engine' designs. However they have the engine mounted so far back in the chassis to tip weight distribution toward the rear. The styling especially of the 612 does little to mask this with it's out of proportion hood. The only worse style example of this is the MB SLR. Drivers prefer the handling 'feel' ie. sharpness of the F430 over the bloated 599's understeer that can turn to oversteer with Enzo power on tap. The Ferrari 12 cyl models have really gotten too heavy in the latest models. Carbon brakes are mandatory on the 599 as a result. While the Enzo is lighter it's sheer size makes it more daunting.
It is simply econmics of scale to get the most dollars for each unit built. When the F430 replacement arrives it will move up market pricewise; why shouldn't the Corvette follow? At a discreet distance hopefully...

2K3Z06

I would love to see/drive a mid-engine vette. I have driven an F430 and Cayman. Both are wonderful driving/handling cars. Corvette tradionalist will cry foul. But if you don't believe in mid engine cars, go drive a F430. The F430 handles better than an Z06, without a doubt. Cockpit heat, not an issue.
Noise, now thats funny!!! The Z06 is the loudest car I have owned, and most corvette owners take off the exhaust and put something louder on. So thats not an issue.
The F430 was more quiet than my Z06 IMO.
Which leaves luggage space, most sports car owners would prefer performance over cargo capacity. If you want haul golf clubs and BBQ grilles and 30qt ice chests. A caddilac or lexus is your vehicle.

I believe Zora was on the right track 50 years ago. Just look at all the successful rear engine race cars, F1, Indy, LMP, GT-40, R-8. Its a proven superior design from a performance standpoint.

A mid engine vette would raise the performance bar even higher, and could be built to a reasonable price point. I wish GM would do it, rather than another rehash of the C5 and C6(C5.5).

Make mine red with a paddle shift dual clutch gearbox.

KretzJ

But your argument is why I think a mid-engine Corvette with a base price of $68k makes PERFECT sense.

Because by 2009 we will have a NEW lower-entry performance car from GM / Chevrolet.... the Camaro.

If you want V8 performance with a 6-speed manual and a drop-top for upper $30k's / lower $40k's then it will be the Camaro. The Corvette simply CANNOT keep up (yes it's marketing) with the cars that it constantly gets compared to. Push it to $68k base, make it mid-engine and some exotic stuff with 550 - 600 HP and it WILL STILL beat the pants off similar cars costing 2x. The Camaro will take over in the value performance market (and personally I think it will do well).

Can I afford a $68k base Corvette? No way. Not even CLOSE. Am I upset because I will be damaged? Nope. I want to see the Corvette take on the 911's, Viper's, F430's and such and beat them at their own game with $70k or more left in the pocket. It just won't be MY pocket.

I'm already strongly considering an order for a V8 convertible 2010 Camaro but I will ALWAYS love Corvettes. My disposable income simply hasn't kept up with the market.

-John K.

KretzJ

Then perhaps, like me, you need to set your sights on something you can afford. I won't be able to afford a $68k Corvette... but I'm not trying to hold up innovation because I'm not getting what I want. I'll simply buy a 2010 Camaro and still get V8 fun with a convertible top.

There will be PLENTY of people with pockets deep enough to buy a $70k base Corvette. It just might not be all of us.

-John K.

Hool97

Thats the ticket.

-vet

What he said; except maybe silver instead of 'arrest me red' would be OK!