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GM Finances and the C7

 
Old 07-03-2008, 12:45 PM
  #21  
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Let's get a few facts straight here. First of all, GM has a very long development cycle, Back when the C5 Z06 had debuted, the styling for the C6 was pretty much complete and design studies for the C6 Z06 were already under way. Most likely, at this point in the game, the C7 is already too far along to go back to the beginning. The biggest debates at GM are probably how to trim a few pounds more while remaining profitable and whether or not more aggressive engine technology such as cylinder deactivation should be used. If there's a slight delay, engine design would probably play more of a roll at this point in the game.

As for the vette being dropped because it's not profitable, ever since the C5 Gen, GM has consistently made a profit off the Corvette line. Even if the C6 is no longer selling as well, the dealers have already bought their allocated vettes from GM, there's no slowdown in production at Bowling Green and no sign of it in the near future. The C7 program must continue, delaying it would actually hurt GM since the Corvette is an important source of both income and status for the overall company.
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Old 07-03-2008, 01:05 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Alex1217 View Post
Let's get a few facts straight here. First of all, GM has a very long development cycle
This is true the C5 was suppose to come out in 1993 but was delayed

Originally Posted by Alex1217 View Post

As for the vette being dropped because it's not profitable, ever since the C5 Gen, GM has consistently made a profit off the Corvette line. Even if the C6 is no longer selling as well, the dealers have already bought their allocated vettes from GM
Again true but look there are still new 2006's and 2007 on dealer lot's not to mention the 8000 2008's out there. Allocations are based on sales from dealers C6 sales are not even close to being as good as a the C5's. There are alot less buyers for a 70k+ Z06 C6 is 2009 then there were for a 52k C5 Z06 in 2002.

Used C5's had much better resale value then the C6's that says everything.


Originally Posted by Alex1217 View Post
There's no slowdown in production at Bowling Green and no sign of it in the near future. The C7 program must continue, delaying it would actually hurt GM since the Corvette is an important source of both income and status for the overall company.
Yes the Corvette is somewhat profitable but in the big picture for GM it is very small. 20k to 30k a year production just isn't enough to change things for GM. For them to retool for a C7 is very costly and will be delayed just like the C5 was when it came out. There will be huge changes at GM and unless gas goes back down to $2.50 a gallon the future is very unknown for Corvette and GM
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Old 07-03-2008, 01:53 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by red06c6hm View Post
Well, when I can't even get my fiancee to by american, she just bought a new acura, I doubt GM will ever recover. We stopped at lexus first, and we had to wait 20 minutes for a saleman. We had an appointment at the acura dealer, as she basically already had the deal done and the place was packed.

I walked over to the chevy dealer next door, I wanted to look at the jetstream blue up close, I was the only non-saleman there, on the other side was BMW, nobody there either, the other side of chevy was honda, they also were packed.

I'll continue to buy GM as long as they stay in business, or until they are bought out by the japs. After that, I'll buy german.
why the bias against the Japanese but not the Germans?
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Old 07-03-2008, 03:53 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Alex1217 View Post
Let's get a few facts straight here. First of all, GM has a very long development cycle, Back when the C5 Z06 had debuted, the styling for the C6 was pretty much complete and design studies for the C6 Z06 were already under way. Most likely, at this point in the game, the C7 is already too far along to go back to the beginning. The biggest debates at GM are probably how to trim a few pounds more while remaining profitable and whether or not more aggressive engine technology such as cylinder deactivation should be used. If there's a slight delay, engine design would probably play more of a roll at this point in the game.

As for the vette being dropped because it's not profitable, ever since the C5 Gen, GM has consistently made a profit off the Corvette line. Even if the C6 is no longer selling as well, the dealers have already bought their allocated vettes from GM, there's no slowdown in production at Bowling Green and no sign of it in the near future. The C7 program must continue, delaying it would actually hurt GM since the Corvette is an important source of both income and status for the overall company.
I think there is a lot of merit to what you say, but to be the devils advocate...

GM selling all of it's allocation to dealers is nice, but if the dealers reach a point where they are not making a reasonable return on those inventories, they will stop ordering replacement inventory and production will go down.

The Corvette may be profitable, and I believe it is. But if GM is truly in a pickle financially, they have to decide very carefully where they invest the limited capital funds they have to work with. It becomes a matter of where the BEST return on those capital investment dollars can come from. Do they invest in a car that sells 35,000 a year, or do they invest in the vehicles that sell in the hundreds of thousands and have a major impact on the bottom line and the ability to meet upcoming CAFE requirements?
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Old 07-03-2008, 06:01 PM
  #25  
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1st of all. GM doesn't have any financial woes. They just bought the RenCen and the buildings around it for almost a Billion cash, yes cash! and they put up 200 million for Gear and Axle to get with the buyout program. Trust me, they are not hurting at all and I just retired from there with a great pension package, (hourly) The C7 IS ON HOLD! It has been for about 8 months now. If you don't believe me then ask MAJZ06 or NemesisC5, if you don't believe them, well, never mind. The way the economy is going, they might not start the C7, I'm going to check in every once in awhile to see what's going on but for right now....Nothing!......Good Luck...bob.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:35 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by AFVETTE View Post
GM has all the neat stuff already bought and paid for from the XLR.

It wouldn't take too much to tweak the current C6 and allow it to be a world class sports car for years. Personally I would rather they get this generation "right" than to spend any more $$$ on the next generation and still have an unfinished product. There is no excuse for some of the omissions 09 Corvette buyers have to endure.
There is much more advanced technology and creature comforts in the XLR that can certainly be incorporated into the current and upcoming C6 platforms to make the C6 a true world class GT sports car.

1. Heat & Cooled Ventilated Seats
2. Adaptive Cruise Control & Lane Change Signal Warning
3. 5.1 Surround Sound Audio System with a 40 GB Hard Drive for Music Storage
4. Retractable Hardtop for the Convertible
5. Upgraded Recaro Premium Bucket Seats
6. Upgraded Premium Interior Finishes with genuine carbon fiber, Alcantara and choices of Premium Leather Hides
7. Premium Exterior 3 Stage Pearl Paint Colors
8. Carbon Ceramic Brembo Brake System.
9. Signal Lane Flashers in the Side View Mirrors
10. Power Fold-away Side View Mirrors
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Old 07-04-2008, 05:39 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by maxp View Post
why the bias against the Japanese but not the Germans?
Do the Japanese conduct business in a fair way? No. Look at how many Corvette's GM is allowed to sell in Japan and also look at the tariffs that must be paid to do so as well. While you are looking, find out if American citizens are allowed to buy property in Japan. Can the Japanese buy property over here? Look no further than Hawaiinese (Hawaii). Since so much is owned by the Japanese I reference it as such.

Well we are going to see some major changes in the automotive markets. Smaller is going to sell more. Is there a chance that we Corvette could be made to run on E85 and also lose weight? Possible. Turbocharging/less weight/possible diesel variant. There are endless possibilities but one thing that is going to happen, more MPG is a definite. GM and the rest made their bed when they made selling trucks their bread and butter. How many of you remember back around 1983 when we had the Focus and Chevette making great MPG? They had the Diesel Chevettes in 1982 getting 40-44mpg. The MPG for the gasoline engine was around 28city/40hwy. What has happened you ask? Well safety has made the cars hefty porkers. It used to be the "Quality" stigma that hurt American made cars. Well, FORD was rated as equal to Toyota this year and has that helped their slumpiong sales? Not as much as would be expected.

I really believe what is hurting the American car companies is their design teams. They are always behind when it comes to their designs. It is as though they have the elderly designing the cars for the younger generation. Face it, it isn't going to happen. Cadillac finally got it right with their lineup. As for the rest, take the new Cobalt. They car looks bland. Nice features but it just has a bland look about it. The Solstice and Skye are beautiful cars but why did it take so long to make them? Damn, they let Mazda sell over a million worldwide before they answered. It is as though they ar showing up in the ninth inning ready to play and there are already 2 outs.
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Old 07-05-2008, 10:51 AM
  #28  
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Off shore sales will keep the Corvette alive and well thanks to the loss of value for the Dollar.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:09 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by dvilin View Post
Throw me in the pile of selfish ones as I do not really care to speculate about the future as who knows where the economy is headed. I have my new (2008) Vette and I love it, if and when GM comes out with a new version I may purchase it, for now I am enjoying what I have and let others worry about what may be.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:30 PM
  #30  
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GM is in Big Trouble. Two years ago, they had $45 billion in liquidity. Today it's $24 billion. Their estimated cash burn for 2008 is $8 billion. They pay $2 billion per year in interest and have no where to go for more money since their credit rating SUCKS!

It's not a question of IF GM will go into C11, but when.

They could dig out for a few years by selling off some brands... Hummer? But who's going to purchase it? The entire auto industry is hurting... including Toyota.

I imagine the Corvette won't be going anywhere soon and a new C7 might actually help GM's image.

It's a mess. 54 year low for the stock price? A shame!
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:26 PM
  #31  
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Corvette has always been the sacred cow, but with the economy as it is, GM stock sinking I'd guess anything is possible. I can't see anything happening to Corvette or Chevrolet in general. They are still fat in middle management and need some cuts there. I currently have a C5 and would love to move up to C6 in a few years, so I'm hoping previously owned C6 selling prices take a whopping drop. If the C6 generation goes 10 years I'll be able to get a 2007-2010 for a great price.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:09 AM
  #32  
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GM's woes are not within the Corvette group, IMO. The Corvette is the car GM has going right at this point. The C5 was great, kept the production life short, gave us a better C6 and hope they keep the production life short again. This keeps buyers in the market for the vehicle and gets the attention it needs. GM actually needs to take the current Corvette group attitude and apply it out into the other vehicle groups within GM. GM has a TON of engineering capability and already has a TON of R&D into very criticle improvements needed(more effecient drivetrains, LOTS of reduced mass engineering research and application, electric vehicle experience).

What GM fails at is taking this research and actually getting it into a vehicle. The new Malibu is a great example. While it is a nice vehicle, it is overweight. GM has all this mass reduction effort going on with the Vette, but the new CTS and Malibu are overweight pigs in their segments....What is worse, GM actually got good MPG numbers for those vehicles and seems content to just sit there and say we made the mark...Why doesn't GM try to SET THE MARK with some of this R&D they have???? Why, I think, is because there are some bean counters up in the top ranks still pulling on those strings. I'm not too happy with Lutz the putz lately either. He better start moving foward and get off the "old school" vehicle line. That thinking will only produce so many vehicles that a small percentage of the public purchases......
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:27 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by WhiteDiamond View Post
GM's woes are not within the Corvette group, IMO. The Corvette is the car GM has going right at this point. The C5 was great, kept the production life short, gave us a better C6 and hope they keep the production life short again. This keeps buyers in the market for the vehicle and gets the attention it needs. GM actually needs to take the current Corvette group attitude and apply it out into the other vehicle groups within GM. GM has a TON of engineering capability and already has a TON of R&D into very criticle improvements needed(more effecient drivetrains, LOTS of reduced mass engineering research and application, electric vehicle experience).

What GM fails at is taking this research and actually getting it into a vehicle. The new Malibu is a great example. While it is a nice vehicle, it is overweight. GM has all this mass reduction effort going on with the Vette, but the new CTS and Malibu are overweight pigs in their segments....What is worse, GM actually got good MPG numbers for those vehicles and seems content to just sit there and say we made the mark...Why doesn't GM try to SET THE MARK with some of this R&D they have???? Why, I think, is because there are some bean counters up in the top ranks still pulling on those strings. I'm not too happy with Lutz the putz lately either. He better start moving foward and get off the "old school" vehicle line. That thinking will only produce so many vehicles that a small percentage of the public purchases......
With all due respect, I don't think you have hit on what GM's problem is. If weight were the problem, Mercedes Benz would have been gone a long time ago. A SL550 (and it's brothers) is a two seat car about 3 inches longer than a Corvette that weights about 40% more than a Corvette.

Also, weight is not hurting the CTS. Dealers can't keep them in stock. GM's problem is that their business model is built around a certain volume. When that volume is not met, they cannot cover their fixed costs. Second is that their business model is built too heavily around large SUV's. See problem #1 above.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:38 AM
  #34  
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I rented an Impala last week and was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the vehicle and the gas mileage. 3 cyl cut out ( of the V6) and you cruise along at 65 mph getting around 33 mpg. Not bad.

However, the car was so darn ugly on the outside. It had no style!

Corvette C6 & the new CTS are the only two cars in GM's fleet (IMHO) that look good. Hell, I've had Toyota Camry's cause me to double-take.

I think GM is getting the fuel economy in order... and even the quality is there. They're just lacking in style and desireablity.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:52 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by jschindler View Post
With all due respect, I don't think you have hit on what GM's problem is. If weight were the problem, Mercedes Benz would have been gone a long time ago. A SL550 (and it's brothers) is a two seat car about 3 inches longer than a Corvette that weights about 40% more than a Corvette.

Also, weight is not hurting the CTS. Dealers can't keep them in stock. GM's problem is that their business model is built around a certain volume. When that volume is not met, they cannot cover their fixed costs. Second is that their business model is built too heavily around large SUV's. See problem #1 above.
This sediment is exactly the reason GM gets away with not "setting the mark" but mearly approaching it. If we were all just satified that our cars where in the segment, but not leaders, then GM would be doing fine. Why would a manufacturer like GM have a CTS, all though it is a fine vehicle, that is 500lbs overweight and gets segment average fuel economy?? GM could have easily dumped the 500lbs, and probably more, and had segment LEADING fuel economy.

Comparing to MB is rediculous. Most buyers of MB products are not looking for fuel economy. They are looking for appointments and GM could easily lead that segment as well.....Why they don't..........Well, GM has problems. The Corvette group certainly has been working harder on leading segment engineering than the whole of GM. Top brass should take note.

Worth noting: CTS's are sitting on dealer lots all over the country. The new "impact" has worn off and it is just another 4 door luxury car in a segment it could have led.

Last edited by WhiteDiamond; 07-08-2008 at 10:55 AM. Reason: added
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Old 07-13-2008, 07:50 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by NocarbutaVetteforme View Post
Do the Japanese conduct business in a fair way? No. Look at how many Corvette's GM is allowed to sell in Japan and also look at the tariffs that must be paid to do so as well. While you are looking, find out if American citizens are allowed to buy property in Japan. Can the Japanese buy property over here? Look no further than Hawaiinese (Hawaii). Since so much is owned by the Japanese I reference it as such.

Well we are going to see some major changes in the automotive markets. Smaller is going to sell more. Is there a chance that we Corvette could be made to run on E85 and also lose weight? Possible. Turbocharging/less weight/possible diesel variant. There are endless possibilities but one thing that is going to happen, more MPG is a definite. GM and the rest made their bed when they made selling trucks their bread and butter. How many of you remember back around 1983 when we had the Focus and Chevette making great MPG? They had the Diesel Chevettes in 1982 getting 40-44mpg. The MPG for the gasoline engine was around 28city/40hwy. What has happened you ask? Well safety has made the cars hefty porkers. It used to be the "Quality" stigma that hurt American made cars. Well, FORD was rated as equal to Toyota this year and has that helped their slumpiong sales? Not as much as would be expected.

I really believe what is hurting the American car companies is their design teams. They are always behind when it comes to their designs. It is as though they have the elderly designing the cars for the younger generation. Face it, it isn't going to happen. Cadillac finally got it right with their lineup. As for the rest, take the new Cobalt. They car looks bland. Nice features but it just has a bland look about it. The Solstice and Skye are beautiful cars but why did it take so long to make them? Damn, they let Mazda sell over a million worldwide before they answered. It is as though they ar showing up in the ninth inning ready to play and there are already 2 outs.
It is not the design teams, it is top managment. They make the decisions and everyone else, including design, follows their directives. Until that changes, GM is hosed. GM has been reactive, not proactive. It is what has made the company what it is today - a follower, not a leader.
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:03 AM
  #37  
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All the discussion about Japanese car companies is relevant, but misses the major problem:
The U.S. car companies seem unable to build cars that Americans actually want to buy. The Corvette is an exception, and big pickups were an exception until gas prices Tasered their sales. But most everything else we make here is perceived as second rate. My own experience, going back 30 years to our first Toyota, confirms this.
Thirty years ago, American car companies had the means (money and talent) to design better cars, but were too dumb to see the threat. Now, they are too broke to do it (hence, this thread), and may not have enough talent even if the money were available. A rising star engineer or manager is not going to sign on with a company like GM that is circling the drain, so the problem gets worse.
GM is going to go through Ch 11 or a similar process some day. But like United Airlines, they don't even have enough management talent to do a good job of that. So they will emerge smaller, weaker, and one step closer to extinction. Only the timetable is in doubt; no one knows if this will take a few years or a few decades.

Last edited by Gearhead Jim; 07-14-2008 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:30 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Gearhead Jim View Post
GM is going to go through Ch 11 or a similar process some day. But like United Airlines, they don't even have enough management talent to do a good job of that. So they will emerge smaller, weaker, and one step closer to extinction. Only the timetable is in doubt; no one knows if this will take a few years or a few decades.
What really brings this situation a possible bad outcome is that the same entrenched management that could not see the light 5 years ago, when there where plenty of signs the gas issue was going to get worse, is still there today and is getting bigger paychecks/bonuses. All the top brass at GM should be wiped clean, IMO, as they simply don't get it. Wag-no-brain is the same CEO that told us gasoline prices have nothing to do with what vehicles Americans buy.....He should have been gone long ago when his leadership put GM below the index consistantly and kept getting worse. He is still there, getting BIG paychecks/bonuses.......for what????
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:14 PM
  #39  
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Bondholders can buy credit default swaps, which function like insurance if the bond issuer fails to pay off. The price of the CDS varies with the market perception of how likely a default is. Those who study this kind of stuff can use the price to determine what the market thinks about the situation. Right now, the CDS on GM bonds are priced to indicate a 25% risk of default within the next year, and a 70-80% risk of default within the next 5 years.
That's pretty bad. Personally, I'm more optomistic than that but i still think the long term (5 years +) picture is pretty grim. OTOH, things can change quickly for the better or for the worse depending on oil prices and the U.S. economy.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:41 PM
  #40  
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Wide body C6 seems like a natural. Direct injection and maybe Dual clutch sequential transmissions make sense for the C6 ..

C7 no earlier than 2015. IMO
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