Orbit Orange

I actually own/insure 4 vehicles currently so with our G8 GT doing the family chores/wife's DD, my GTO being a DD and an occasional track car and an older 4 door GTP for "beater" status and snow travel duty and my cheapie toy '76 El Camino. A new/lightly used Vette is appealing to me and it would actually become a 5th vehicle as I won't be trading when I'm looking for something in the next 2 years. It (vette) would probably become my daily driver on all but the most extreme winter weather days. So its partly financial and partly lifestyle really. Dropping low 40's on a new vehicle is going to be my limiter. Whether or not there will be any new "leftover" '13 C6's out there in early 2014 with the C7 out I don't know. A new C7 will be out of my price range. I think GM would love to get a "younger" owner like myself into a Corvette but as you say, it is hard for them to do. It's a 3rd vehicle for a "family" guy. 2 doors and family don't jive together. Older owners have more disposable income as well. Empty nesters can justify a 2 seater as a second car a lot easier as well. About the only way GM can get younger buyers (of new Vettes) is either to bring the price down significantly OR add a rear seat (that ain't gonna happen). The wealthy younger set just doesn't have that lust for a Corvette. Lots of reasons stated here for that, a shame really.

Hopefully I'll get to sample Corvette ownership someday soon, maybe before I'm too "old". See ya' out on the roads.

jackhall99

Oh, your original post made it sound as though the child/family issues were curtailing the Corvette.

With four cars, your choice to 'pass' on a 'vette, even if used, is that; your choice.

Sorry I misunderstood your position.

dboz

Yeah, I agree, I am not the one saying Corvettes are for old guys, their research/demographics are saying it. They are the ones looking for younger buyers. I would never buy a Camaro.

I would guess most Camaro buyers are also pushing their 50's. It is not a cheap car by any means unless you get a V6. The ZL1 is going to be north of $50k. An SS starts at about $33k. Not exactly cheap. Still a toy for those in the north. Still RWD, still limited rear seat use, still cruddy interior, still poor visibility, cartoon styling, still massive depreciation, still a Chevy.

Sorry, for the modern muscle car segment the MUSTANG is a much better car. Still has the same problems though but a GT is much cheaper to get into at about 29.5k.

The fact today is this: Most Americans are in financial trouble and buying a limited use toy is only for those more established or wealthier individuals. Buying a new Corvette is out of range for most. Buying used is more affordable, but that does not make any money for Chevy, which is why they come out with new models.

S'vette

I dont know about the "Old mans car", I guess it be more of the
"Mature mans car" The job I have now is a job in which we are all military, retired or just did their time and got out. Civil service GS 12 positions, and 99% enlisted when in. We still work with the soldiers and deploy and all and keep their equipment up and running from tanks to networks. Alot of the guys are very young and making GS12 step whatever checks, they could afford a vette easy but buy other cars that are in the same price range and sometimes more but want a "fresher look". Just the age thing I guess. But my point is that with the wars and contracts working with the military has made some young guys very good money. So atleast for now alot of younger people can afford a vette but want different. Now for me I had to retire and get this job before I could afford the vette. My days in the military didnt need the $$$$ todays is. I even know a couple of GS 13s that are under 30 but still wanted the STIs and cars like that.

Jinx

Yes, the Mustang is a better muscle car. Ford figured out how to do non-crappy interiors; GM is just now getting it. (We hope.) And Ford had a smaller, dedicated (if dated) platform as a starting point; Chevy started with a full-size sedan that was not weight-optimized to begin with. (It makes for a very bold car, but not the best it could be... and really only by comparison to the Ford.) I suspect the next-gen Alpha Camaro will do better.

And while I hesitate to downplay a 10% price difference twixt the two V8 ponies, I wonder if real-world from-the-lot cars show the same spread.

Also, the V6 Camaro (and Mustang) is still a muscle car. Not a V8, but the specs on the V6 models don't do previous-generation V8s any favors. Plenty of stoplight swagger and tail-out fun to be had. It's easy to forget that most muscle cars of days gone by were not the hallowed top-spec models, but they still made hay. And the top-spec models weren't all that affordable, either.

Finally, the back seat might not be a fun place for an adult to be, but neither is the back of a 911. It still functions for toting a pair of young'ins, which makes it possible for Dads to justify.

.Jinx

Ed32

Ppl who don't really know about Corvettes, may not ever get one anyway and GM is not going to squash a seat in the back for ur kids or make a slower and cheaper car so you don't get buyer’s remorse, there is a Camaro for that. And the term "muscle car" actually turns off any potential younger buyer including myself. Corvette to me is the affordable and practical answer from the American ingenuity to the snobby Ferrari and Alfas form the 50's, in recent years Lamborghini, Pagani etc. If you know about Corvettes you would know it was born for that purpose and that's not going to change.

The problem of GM is that there r plenty of yonger ppl who make decent money but decide to get a different sports car. They never mentioned in any article that they will make the Vette cheaper.

Corvettes are reliable and the best bang for the buck in terms of performance and looks but they are mostly a toy, it could be a nice DD but not the best car to run errands around town all year round and that will never change either.

But on the other hand, they just added the cup tires option, tweaked the TC and the 2012 Z06 and ZR1 are on the top of the lap times in the Nurburgring again, that's what matters to real younger Vette owners and GM. The interiors are not the best for the price; GM knows that, that's why the centennial edition has suede, the same kind of material they use in Lambos.

The Vette is not an old's guy car is just that younger ppl are less loyal to GM in recent years and that may become a problem in the near future.

That's just my opinion, I bought my Vette new last year when I was 33.

Orbit Orange

Hey its alright. I could swing a new base model 1LT Vette more than likely, but it is a choice. It remains on my short list for my next vehicle coming in a couple of years as well. With my situation, it isn't as un-practical as it might be for 4 people families and up.

I'm curious, I see you're 33, are you single/married? Kids? Is your Vette a DD or weekend ride? Thanks for any info. My brother owned an '05 coupe for a couple of years back when he was 30 and married with no children. A lot easier to own for a couple of course.

I guess a point I'm trying to make with the C7 is that it seems GM wants to up the appeal of the Corvette and sell more but without some sort of drastic change it just isn't going to happen. Now with the Camaro a lot of performance guys will "settle" for the SS since you could wedge your kids in it. If GM brings the C7 too upscale I fear they may leave some possible buyers like myself behind. I could swing a base model coupe new but not a 4LT, GS or Z06/ZR1 new. Then again if they did take it upscale even more maybe they could rob some of those Porsche/ low end Ferrari type sales. It just seems GM is stuck in this mold with the Vette and will continue to see sales around 10K a year in perpetuity with what they are doing now. Thats not necessarily a bad thing but does it make GM enough $$$ to continue the Corvette program? I'm excited to see what happens. I know a lot of purists would hate to see it, but if Corvette became a brand and offered a (hold your breath) stretched sedan or coupe version with a small rear seat, they could open up a different market. Keep with the status quo and I'm afraid with all the options out there for the sportscar buyer, sales will drop further and further. I don't want to see Corvette die, I want to see another 60 years of awesomeness.

dboz

Ah, the catch 22. Maybe if the car was cheaper, they would sell more which would spread R&D and tooling costs over more cars. I think GM needs to budge on their side and cave on the price. I think the car is great and all, but the price for what you get is really not well balanced. Essentially you get a plastic car with more plastic interior, with awesome brakes and suspension and a powerful engine. I really don't see why they should cost more than $40k. OK, the radical stuff with carbon fiber and superchargers and special UV paint etc., I get that, but why not build a budget car that has the same body....IE the GrandSport but with a more modern drivetrain.

Don't read on for all the traditionalists.

Turbo charged V6 (400-450HP), dual clutch transmission, aggressive body, HID's, big brakes, make it a base car around 35-40K, then use all the V8 and traditional stuff the loyalists demand and love spending the money on. The young will go nuts, the old/wealthier buyers have the car they want (and more exclusivity since the upper exotic models will be able to be priced even higher (monster crazy stuff with alcantara interior)), GM sells tons more (maybe back into the 20k-30k unit range) and has their cake.

Ed32

I'm married, no kids, and my only toy is the Vette. The wifey has a full size sedan and I have a beater for the bad weather; most US households have at least 2 cars. You are certainly right! there is a market for sporty cars with a rear seat and GM just released a video of a new beast in this category:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWFP6LM-_q8

The Camaro ZL1 in the Nurburgring, AKA "The Ring", that's how the manufacturers are calling it these days. Also there is a monster Caddy the CTS V (over 500 ponies) and the CTS DI with the direct injection is over 300 ponies range and u can get a used one for a reasonable price.

Pagani has sold 3 or 5 cars in the US so far and they r not whining about it, about the same with Bugatti, the only ones whinning r the rich guys who did not make the cut in the waiting list. GM doesn't need to sell a lot of Corvettes, in the same way Nissan doesn't need to sell a bunch of GTR's.

There is no drama with GM at all, they just said they want to attract younger buyers, that's all!!! They just invested over 100 million in the bowling green plant where they only make Vettes.

GM has been producing a lot of crap in the last 10 years (Saturn, Hummer, Pontiac) they are all gone for good now but GM's reputation still suffers because of that. Like somebody else mentioned ppl in their late 20's 30's and even 40's still think american cars are crap, they think Japanesse cars are realiable and German cars cool and sophisticated.
Things are changing in the recent years, GM is in good shape but younger ppl rather spend 60k in a BMW or an Audi than in a "Chevy". It will take some time for the average Joe who doesn't read car magazines or check the auto news to find out that a lot of things have changed in the american auto industry.

Corvette has tried the sedan approach about 50 years ago and it was a failure. GM has gone through all kinds of problems over the life of the Vette and the worse thing they have done in the 80's is to reduce the horse power to 180. The rear seat is not happening, why? I don't feel like writing an essay about it, u can research that yourself but just to show you some numbers here are the times in the Nurburgring, Corvette zr1, new Camaro zl1, Caddilac CTS-V all of them over 500 horses.

7:19.63 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 2012 ahead of Paganis, Maserattis, Ferraris just by a few seconds.

7:41.27 Camaro ZL1 (2012) (with a rear seat and the stylish "retro muscle car" look )

7:59 Cadillac CTS-V (2009) (comfy seats, luxurious, trunk space, etc)

Corvette it's been GM's high performance iconic car for over 50 years and that's not going to change. Unfortunatelly this costs $$$

I've got a Z-51 because of the performance package, they got rid of it on 2010 and now they have the GS instead, they added the gills and a couple of things here and there and they raised the price over 10k, so I don't think GM is too concerned about making it any cheaper, Z06's with the Z07 package now went up to the high 80k, even 90k and that's happening right now, I'm talking about the 2012 models.

If u really want a Vette just get a used C6, you can get a 2005 for a decent price and get a beater for the bad weather. Or u can get a Camaro or a Cts instead if you really need the rear seat. Good luck!

Jinx

You want them to ADD COST to the car and sell it for THIRTY PERCENT LESS. But I guess it doesn't matter how much they lose on each one, they'll make it up in volume, right?

Please, go buy a Mustang V6, a big turbo, and a combat kit.

.Jinx

dboz

Check. I guess FORD is doing it better anyway, they already have the turbo V6 for the SHO and F-150. I would get the supercharger for the Mustang V6 though (427HP at the wheels with 31 MPG) and still be under $30k. Not sure what you mean about a combat kit though. Corvette owners are very arrogant and go over board demeaning anyone not on their level. I guess you could not stop when I said purists stop reading here.

It is better to sell so few cars to the purists that they eventually don't have a reason to even make them any longer. Last I checked, C6 sales were not that great (10k this year). If it ain't working keep doing it, the government is always there to lend a hand. This car has to get subsidized somehow, since the financial case is surely not there. Oh yeah, it is, with overcharging the few die hards that buy them new.

Jinx

That makes 40-90hp less than you want.

That's not an EPA number, is it? But by all means, go aftermarket and get your modding groove on.

You thought I could ignore the cherry on top of the absurdity sundae? What you're proposing is utterly ridiculous and unreasonable for the Corvette platform. You're completely ignoring, or discounting, the qualitative and quantitative differences between the Corvette platform and a taller narrower heavier less-stiff cheaper-built car. And here's the thing: by your own admission, Ford makes the car you want, short the supercharger you can easily get, apparently. So why are you asking GM to commit commercial suicide by debasing their halo car? What does Corvette have that you want, and are you really silly enough to think that it costs nothing and GM is just pocketing the difference? If it costs nothing, then why isn't someone else giving it to you already?

If you call it arrogance when you say something absurd that underhandedly slams a great car and somebody calls you on it, I can only direct you to a dictionary and suggest you use it.

Duh, two-seater sold to some of the people hardest hit by the recession. At the end of its product cycle. Yes, the Corvette program, which, until the economic collapse, generated a healthy profit for every unit sold going back a decade, is responsible for GM's financial difficulty. I shudder to think what GM's quarterly statement would look like with you making the product decisions.

.Jinx

Orbit Orange

Thanks for answering my question, I appreciate it. I actually do have a small interest in the CTS-V coupe. I can't afford it new but could swing a 2 or 3 model year used one in the future. I love the thought of a 580 HP SC V8 in the ZL1 but the problem is I have a real repulsion to the Camaro. There are so many things I don't like about it. The ZL1 would also have to be a used purchase for me as well. I will want an LS3 Corvette as well. That means 2008 and up. So I'm looking at a new leftover base model 1LT 2013 C6 Vette in early 2014 (if there are any left) or a 2/3 model year used of the same type at that time too. I've got other vehicles on my list as well. Vette ownership is very appealing to me though. Its still "exclusive" in my mind.

GettinMyKicksNaZO6

I'm a gel-haired, iPhone using, West coast....er and I drive a C5 Z06!

BUT...I'm from Texas. I agree! Keep it American!

dboz

I guess I will just have to scrape by with my C3, muscle car and ricer until I can actually afford a new Corvette someday. No that is not correct either. I will never pay for a new Corvette someday, because they have priced themselves out of any reasonable market. But I am glad you feel it is a worthy purchase, I would love to pick up a Z06 on the cheap in about 5 years.


And yes, that is an EPA number. And I would take 40-90 hp less, it is easy to turn up the boost myself and would fill my modding groove itch. I guess I am from the old school crowd who always looks to make stuff faster, not that it is not fast enough already, it is just what most gear heads do to see what they can get out of it.

I guess you have not seen the Boss 302 Laguna Seca. It is none of the things you profess. I am not some brand loyalist. I am a car guy. My money goes where it makes sense, best bang for the buck.

When you can buy a GT for 30k, add a supercharger and suspension for another 7-9k and lay down 600+ HP for under $40k, I don't care if is has two seats or four. Or if it says Chevy or Ford. I am a performance enthusiast. I don't care who makes it. So as you state, I will be taking my 30-40K elsewhere.

I have no clue where you get I am slamming a great car. I have never once bashed the Corvette. Sorry, it is not the perfect car. I am a car guy, not a fan boy. And I sure don't belittle the Mustang or their owners.

Stage IT

old guys car... right . i also love how guys on here make it seem like the younger guys dont make any money. here is my old guy 08 LS3 when i was 21 with a newborn the week i bought it and was still affordable....

Orbit Orange

I hear what your saying. I'm a performance car fan at heart. The Mustang GT is on my short list as well. I'm interested in the next-gen Mustang for 2014 or 2015 and the possible IRS. I'm just VERY interested in a Vette with its low weight and high power quotient. I'll even bring this one up with you. I love my Pontiacs, have 3 right now. I'd like to see GM bring back a couple of niche Pontiac models, one of them based on the Corvette platform, maybe call it Phoenix or something new I suppose. It could be a cheaper stablemate to the Corvette. Smaller engine than the upcoming C7 with its DI V8, lower-grade interior materials, (steel/aluminum body???) and less bells and whistles. Drop the base price of it down to $40K or low 40's. I know I'll catch flack for suggesting this but oh well. Its been done on the higher end with the XLR and XLR-V so why not try the lower end with a niche Pontiac two-seater? Keeps Bowling Green busier, lets GM amortize the cost of the Vette program and gets some younger guys into a less expensive 2-seater based on the Vette. Then someday we could "step up" to a big-boy Vette when our pocketbooks allow it. Just some spitballing here. I'm trying to do some thinking outside the box.

That's great you can, congrats. Like the yellow BTW. When compared to the "norm" you are in the minority though. Average age of new Corvette buyers is way up there. They ought to be thanking you for bringing the age down. I just went to the Corvette FunFest in Effingham Illinois this September. I'd say 95% of owners of C5 & C6 models were 55 and up. I saw one guy a little younger than me (probably in his 30's) with his wife in a nice blue GS and I wanted to hijack his car and make a run for Mexico, it was beautiful. Granted the guys that attend these events have the time to stay 2 or 3 days due to they are retired, so I'm sure its not a representative sample. The question is how does GM shed this "old-mans" car image? It needs to appeal to more guys like yourself AND it needs to be more attainable. Stay the status-quo and that old-guys car image will remain. A shame because the Vette is a kick *** ride.

Jinx

dboz...

"I have never once bashed the Corvette."
"I really don't see why they should cost more than $40k."

"Yes that's an EPA number." Not for 427hp at the wheels; it doesn't come that way and isn't tested that way. It doesn't exist, it's just a tantalizing idea. Comparing what you could do for your aftermarket money and what you get off the lot is a silly game. Pick your starting point, add equivalent dollars to your target's base price, and you can usually produce a faster car. That doesn't make it a better car, and it doesn't mean the target is necessarily overpriced. People do this with Corvettes to "embarass" exotics all the time, and yet Porsche and Ferrari aren't slashing prices on 911s and 458s to make more money in volume.

You know this, but you play this game... I guess because it's empowering to say GM is blowing it and everything would be better if they just made a Mustang competitor. Different cars, different values, different missions, man. Camaro is GM's competitor, and you can bitch about whether it's good enough for modders -- seems to me Mustang and its owners (which I've not belittled despite your implication) are eating its lunch -- but Camaro is still what GM has in that market for now, and it's still selling. The "fix" for Camaro or Corvette is not to chase you with a cheap Corvette. In fact, it should be noted that Ford doesn't offer a FI V6 sports car despite having all the parts in-house. Same for Nissan... oh, actually, they do, but they're just as lost as GM, apparently, because they have priced themselves out of any reasonable market.

Corvette is more than numbers -- indeed in criticizing its lack of balance and plasticness, you're acknowledging that there's more to a car than its modding potential, or at least perhaps should be.

You don't like Corvette's mission or direction, and you think the mention of a younger audience and present low sales proves it's wrong, but your "solution" to this "problem" is not realistic. I hope the next Camaro does a better job of appealing to you, because it's pretty clear that's what you're after. May it be every bit as sweet as the Boss 302 Laguna Seca, but with a big screaming turbo on GM's 3.6, and may you blow the doors off every C6 and shock the underdriven C7s right into the weeds. But if GM can build that, they can build a base C7 that costs a lot more, performs at least as well, is worth every penny, and turns GM a tidy profit, without taking any of your advice.

.Jinx

ockie

What stuff are you smoking


Whatever it is, I want to avoid it like the plague

Rock36

IDK man, whether it is 2012, 2002, or 1992... you could always take a Mustang GT (or Mustang Cobra) do some HCI work or S/C it, and be as fast as a stock base vette (from the same year) for less money out the door. Especially in straight line acceleration. Modding a Mustang for less isn't something that came about in the latest Mustang 5.0/Boss 302 iteration, folks have done it for a long time now. It didn't really make a difference then and it doesn't now JMHO.

To me, corvettes are marketed against brands like Porsche, and when you compare the price/performance of a Vette to the price/performance of a Porsche Cayman or Porsche 911 for example, or even say.. a different car like a Audi TTS, or C63 AMG then you really see that the Vette is a performance bargain in strictly factory stock offerings.

The whole modding argument always throws a big wrench into the consideration anyway, as it can always be taken a step farther. Personally, if I was really looking for some bargain performance car, I wouldn't take any car from the last 10 years. I'd take a low-mileage late 90s C5 and mod the hell out of it for less than the $30k, and I'd be able to keep up and beat just about any new performance car out today on a road course or dragstrip, and still have a $10k maintenance fund.