tuxnharley

Where in the world did you get that wrong impression? Actually, not only is the Volt in fact a hybrid, it is the only one in production that is able to function as both a series and a parallel hybrid, due to its unique planetary gearbox. Criticise the Volt all you want, but at least recognize it correctly for what it is - a pretty unique and sophisticated design and engineering first.

That said, NO, I don't want the C7 to be a hybrid! If that's what I want for my DD I'll buy................ a Volt, or maybe a Ford Fusion.

BobRBob

You're thinking of electric cars. Little of what you said applies to hybrids. Hybrid batteries get their energy from from the gas tank by way of regenerative technologies. The jury is out on how well hybrids improve gas mileage but If hybrid technology was used in a sports car, the objective would be higher performance, not improved fuel economy. This is a proven strategy. The electric motors combined with the gasoline engine create more power for quick bursts. Improved fuel economy would be icing on the cake.

SCM_Crash

This thread is so full of fail it's just sad.

dboz

No I am thinking the same thing. A car that requires batteries at this time, is dependent on the battery for some or most of its propulsion. That requires lithium, which is imported to a country (KOREA) where the battery is made. So we are moving off Middle East oil (slightly as we still need gas for hybrids) and becoming more dependent on lithium from CHINA. How well does your hybrid work without a battery?

BobRBob

You lost me. All I said was that hybrid technology in a sports car would be for the purpose of enhanced performance, not improved fuel efficiency. The motivation would be technical, not political (as it is with electric cars). Of course a hybrid needs batteries but they are not charged externally from coal burning power plants. The batteries are just used to store energy that would otherwise be wasted. The lithium dependency issue you raise is not really comparable to the current dependency on foreign oil. Lithium is not an energy source.

SCM_Crash

Wrong. Actually Porsche has figured out a way to not use any sort of battery energy storage at all. They use a spinning flywheel to store the energy. It's cheaper and lighter. The storage capacity isn't as great as a battery pack, but that's not needed in a sports car as far as quick bursts of energy. Porsche isn't the first to think of this technology, but they're the first to find a way to make it work in a sports car.

Fast forward to 3:20:


Read and watch above.



Now for my rant:

A lot of you guys really don't know much about hybrid technology other than what small pieces of information you guys have heard hear and there. It takes real engineering know-how to understand the real logistics and purpose of hybrid technology based on the platform and end-goal. I admit I'm not an engineer in this field, but I'm very good with the understanding of thermal dynamics and energy conservation as well as the mechanical principles behind hybrid technology.

Unfortunately, many people in here have been brought up with notion that hybrid technology in any form is specifically for savings in fuel economy. But that concept needs to be rewritten in your brain.

Figure it like this:
Energy is never lost or created. It's simply converted or transferred. With a gas engine, 33% of the energy in the gasoline is energy that propels your vehicle. The other 66% of that energy is lost to heat, internal friction (resistance in the engine), and rotating mass. Also note that the faster the engine revs, the less energy makes to the wheels.

In addition, you lose energy to bumps in the road, braking, and rolling resistance.

The goal of hybrid technology is to get the most energy to the wheels with as little lost to heat and friction as possible. As a secondary goal, hybrid technology attempts to reclaim energy lost. 2 ways of doing this is regenerative braking and linear generator shocks. These two methods reclaim energy normally lost from braking and going over bumps in the road. Neither of which are detrimental to the performance or handling of the car.

Now, hybrids come in 3 flavors: Parallel and Series and the combination of both. The hybrids you are used to seeing are series type hybrids (i.e. the Prius, and most economy hybrids.) A series hybrid means that there's a gas generator that powers a battery pack which in-turn powers an electric motor which drives the wheels. Hence why it's called "Series". Then there are parallel hybrids. These are more like the sports cars you see and the GM hybrid trucks. Parallel hybrids have gas engines that drive a transmission which drives the wheels. There's an electric motor that is usually connected inline with the transmission (usually at the flywheel) which - in most cases - will help get the vehicle moving from a dead stop using very little fuel since electric motors are very good for generating torque. (After all, accelerating from a dead stop is what costs the most fuel all things being relative.)

There are rear combinations of both like the Volt, which uses a series style hybrid configuration at low speeds, and parallel above 70MPH. But this is a rear case, as I mentioned, and isn't really worth talking about.

For a sports car, as you'll see in racing more and more lately, they use braking to store energy and when the driver needs it, he can release that energy back through the parallel hybrid system accelerating much faster. They call this "Boosting". Porsche uses it, Jaguar uses it, and from what I understand, Lamborghini is about to start using it. This system is NOT for fuel economy. However, if the system is setup right, it's bi-product would indeed be increased fuel economy. For instance, if you are braking and storing the energy normally lost to heat in your disc brakes to battery or flywheel storage, you can then use that same energy to accelerate from a stop without using gasoline thus saving a lot of fuel.

Will GM use this type of technology? I don't know. I'd like to see it though.

But what you guys have to understand is that having a parallel hybrid setup doesn't mean your Corvette is going to be pushed around by an electric motor. It means it's going to be assisted by an electric motor while your V8 still drives the wheels at all times. Imagine, a 500BHP gas engine that has a button-activated extra 100HP and 100Lbs/tq assistance! And remember, electric motors make 100% of their torque at 0 RPM! So there's no waiting for the torque to build up.

BobRBob

Good summary. I agree. The use of hybrid technologies in a sports car would be for the purpose of boosting performance and I would like to see it as well. And, as I said, any improvement in fuel economy would be icing on the cake.

CannedBullets

The processes used to make hybrid cars are just as damaging to the environment (nickel mining for hybrid batteries cause acid rain). Maybe by the time the C8 rolls around hydrogen fuel cells and/or electricity in cars will be efficient to use in performance cars.

dboz

Yes, I understand the possible performance advantage of instant torque. What is the weight penalty of the electric motors? As for PORSCHE, the 918 is going to cost close to $800k, so not exactly cheap for the everyday use of the technology.

Michael A

Liquid cooling makes engineering sense. A hybrid drivetrain on a sports car does not. The money is much better spent on lightweight materials, and engine and drivetrain improvements, than big heavy batteries.

Michael

McGirk94LT1

You're right, most all of H-D's engines are beyond mediocre save for the Revolution engine. Heck they went ***** out for the 110ci and the sportsters 1200cc engine seems just as impressive.

Battery packs however(as well as a twin turbo set up), add weight, make it a pain for the average joe to work on once his warranty is up, and adds complexity. Something the vette(your right in fact) isnt known for. But just like vette's with minimal technology, I believe history shows the original Cobras also didnt have a problem despite being low tech.

Water jacketing or water cooling an engine has very minimal downsides(weight from coolant/pump yeah I know). Designing a performance hybrid, not so much.

BobRBob

I'm not recommending it particularly. Just acknowledging the possibility that electric boost could be used to increase torque.

SCM_Crash

These three posts are nominated for the "Ignore Reality, Stay Brain-washed" award.

Thanks for completely ignoring what I said.

Economy hybrids are for saving gas, sports car hybrids are for added performance by capturing lost energy like heat from braking. That means for a performance hybrid, you don't need batteries.

The 918 is a super limited run. And it's a Porsche. They charge so much more money for anything you buy than Chevrolet by a long shot.

Example 1: Porsche Carrera GT Engine = $130,000. (Is it built for 1/10th the cost? Yes. Do people still buy it? Yes. Why? No clue.)

Example 2: Porsche 911 Turbo = $120,000 (base). Half the car that the C6 Corvette GS is, and twice the cost.

I worked at a Porsche dismantling yard where we sold parts for all 911, Boxters, Cayennes, and Caymans. The cost on everything was just ridiculous.

The fact that the 918 is a limited run vehicle only makes the situation more extreme. So comparing what Porsche may charge for something vs. what Chevrolet may charge for something is apples and oranges unless you're talking about specific model-to-model value. But we're not talking about that here.

As for the weight penalty, have ANY of you guys even looked up how much an AC motor weighs? Yes, the DC motors weigh a lot. But the AC motors (like the one in the Tesla) weigh approx 60Lbs. (They may actually be lighter now.) They're about the size of a football. In theory, adding a flywheel-storage based hybrid technology with these smaller motors would possibly weight around 150Lbs. (2 motors + 1 controller.) But that's by using motors designed to push a car solo. We're talking about 200KW (268HP) motors. So really, they could be a LOT smaller motors (75-80KW - half the size) because they're parallel hybrid motors. My guess would put the combined weight at around 100Lbs for 2 motors and a controller.

I really wish you guys would be more open minded about these things (and possibly do your research) rather than just blurting out whatever 90's non-sense you guys have heard.

Thanks for completely ignoring what I said.

That's odd, because in F1 racing they've found the cars are running faster lap times with hybrid technology and they're not stopping as often for fuel. Gosh that's just soooooo weird.

I guess the engineers behind the racing industry are just as crazy as I am then. Doesn't make sense to go faster and be more efficient at the same time...

Or MAYBE there's a conspiracy going on where all the laptimes are skewed and the video you see are actually just replays sped up just enough to look real!!!

Reality check: It's already proven that the cost of building cars with hybrid technology is cheap enough to warrant the cost of the vehicle. That's why people buy hybrids. Proof is in the pudding, they say. If this recipe didn't work, they wouldn't build them.

While you may think that the money is better spent on lighter materials and engine improvements, you're not realizing that it doesn't cost that much more for either of these. Carbonfiber parts can now be stamped out for cheap, and once an engine design is done, they're mass-produced at almost the same cost as the previous generation motor. Same with the transmission. They sell them for more because they can, but do you think that the LS1 and the LS3 cost anything different to manufacture?! No... They're were the exact same motors from a machining point of view with some slight changes in bore and heads (even simpler heads on the LS3). It's possible the LS3 cost less to produce. And yet which one costs more to buy?

So really, the money that you think would go to "big heavy batteries" (although they wouldn't USE batteries) would still be there regardless of what kind of material and engine improvements they make.

What weighs more? A twin turbo setup or a parallel hybrid setup that uses flywheel-storage rather than batteries? I don't know. They're probably right on par with each other weight wise. What is more efficient? The hybrid technology. What will get you to your max speed faster? Hybrid technology. What has more potential to make more power? Both. (Why? Because you can always turbo they hybrid setup!!!) What's going to save on fuel? They hybrid setup.

Either way you look at it, hybrid technology for performance aspects is absolutely the future. You really don't have a choice in the matter. It's been proven time and time again in the racing industry on F1 cars and now with Porsche pushing it in GT Class racing, other manufacturers are going to have to keep up with the Jones' and you know they will. Porsche isn't stopping for fuel that often. That gives them a huge advantage. If it wasn't for that damn unreliable POS Porsche engine, they probably would have won the race.

dboz

I am plenty open minded. If the hybrid technology brings performance and saves fuel I am all for it. If it to save the planet from CO2, under the guise of ending dependence on foreign oil, I am strongly against it.

Just saying, technology is usually not cheap, and usually more expensive to repair when it does go bad.

MawneeC5

bleeper

I am down for it,increased fuel efficiency is a good thing. hell they could do a mild hybrid like belt alternator starter or the drool worthy Porsche 918.

Michael A

I didn't completely ignore what you said. Just most of it.

You're ignoring the actual cost of the hybrid system to the consumer. Do we need the cost of the Corvette to jump up by another $5000? Do we really need more expensive batteries to replace? The last Optima I bought was expensive enough. Consumer Reports has already proven you won't get your money back in fuel savings with a hybrid system.

I'll be perfectly happy with some modest improvements in fuel economy from things like direct injection, some lighter weight materials, and better aerodynamics. They could also look at lower rolling resistance tires (if it doesn't hurt handling), electric power steering (if it doesn't kill feedback), and electric A/C compressor (if it doesn't reduce the Gold Standard A/C performance it has now).

Michael

BobRBob

You can do all of those things and still add hybrid technology. They aren't mutually exclusive.

tuxnharley

Nope, just mutually inclusive at adding cost...............and, in the case of the hybrid technology, weight.

No Thanks!

SCM_Crash

...Your fired! Get out of my office!

But seriously. Everything I've said in the last 2 posts was about NOT using batteries. Batteries as we know them will be going the way of the dodo in the future. Light-weight super-capacitors using nano technology will be lighter, more efficient, more durable (no discernible life-span), and can charge large amounts of energy in a couple minutes rather than hours. However, even then I don't believe that the near future holds too much water for long-term energy storage in performance hybrids.

Please, just go back and reread what I've written. I'm not saying battery hybrids are the way to go. Fly-wheel energy storage is when they use a spinning flywheel to generate electricity.

Here's how it works on the Porsche GT3:

The front wheels are connected to 2 very small electric motors. Those electric motors are used for both speed boosting and braking. When they are braking, they're generating electricity. That electricity is exclusively used to spin up a remotely located flywheel connected to a slightly larger single electric motor. The energy used to spin the flywheel is stored in the rotating mass. When the car needs more energy to "Speed boost", the electric motor that was used to spin up the flywheel then becomes an electric generator (braking the flywheel) and sending that energy right back to the front electric motors for boosting power.

No batteries used AT ALL for this system.

BTW, there is a non-electric version of this used for large vehicles (like buses) in use that uses a mechanical transmission to defer power back and forth between the wheels and the flywheel storage. This isn't a new concept and has been tried and true for quite some time. Simply Google "Flywheel regenerative braking" and you'll see lots of examples of this.

Porsche is simply the first to come out with a light-weight electric version of this.

And like I said before, the weight cost of this is about the same as a twin turbo system. Approx 100Lbs including controller, 2 small 70Kw electric motors and a flywheel.