all-wheel-drive vs rear wheel drive
12-02-2011, 05:07 PM
#1
Drifting
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all-wheel-drive vs rear wheel drive
Jan 2012 Automobile magazine has an interesting article titled, "Has Rear Wheel Drive Reached its Limit?" by Ezra Dyer. It is a compairson of a Veryron Grand Sport at 1001 hp and a Mosler Raptor at 838 hp.
The essence of the article is that that the rear wheel drive, mid-rear engined Raptor is harder to handle on the street than the all-wheel-drive Veryron.
All about tranction limitations.
Beaware that the mid rear engined Mosler at 2500 lbs has no traction control electronics going for it, where as the all-wheel-drive Veryron does.
Interesting read.
I believe the author mis-named the Mosler. I think he meant the 900 series.
The essence of the article is that that the rear wheel drive, mid-rear engined Raptor is harder to handle on the street than the all-wheel-drive Veryron.
All about tranction limitations.
Beaware that the mid rear engined Mosler at 2500 lbs has no traction control electronics going for it, where as the all-wheel-drive Veryron does.
Interesting read.
I believe the author mis-named the Mosler. I think he meant the 900 series.
12-02-2011, 09:24 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
Sounds like an extremely poorly done article if they compared a fully-nannied car to a you-broke-it-you-bought-it car and came to conclusions about drive wheels in general.
"We compared this ballplayer to this physicist and determined that women are smarter than men." It's about that pointless.
"We compared this ballplayer to this physicist and determined that women are smarter than men." It's about that pointless.
12-02-2011, 09:29 PM
#3
Sounds like an extremely poorly done article if they compared a fully-nannied car to a you-broke-it-you-bought-it car and came to conclusions about drive wheels in general.
"We compared this ballplayer to this physicist and determined that women are smarter than men." It's about that pointless.
"We compared this ballplayer to this physicist and determined that women are smarter than men." It's about that pointless.
RWD > AWD
The areas where AWD sports cars shine are the quarter mile and in the hands of an inexperienced driver on the street. Under the hands of a well qualified driver RWD is better overall as a sports car.
12-02-2011, 09:52 PM
#4
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LOL!
I'm not reading that article. They're comparing the wrong cars. They should compare an 800HP Subaru to the Mosler. Not a car that pretty much drives itself.
The Veyron has so much technology in it, from fiber-optic sensors to automated brakes and even an AIR BRAKE!!! LOL It practically links into your brain through your butt and knows exactly what you plan to do and what you ate for lunch.
The Mosler is a frame, 2 seats and a motor. It doesn't even have a full interior. I'd be surprised if the turn signals were solid state. They're probably mechanical. The only thing that could be consider state-of-the-art on that car is it's aerodynamic body.
I'm not reading that article. They're comparing the wrong cars. They should compare an 800HP Subaru to the Mosler. Not a car that pretty much drives itself.
The Veyron has so much technology in it, from fiber-optic sensors to automated brakes and even an AIR BRAKE!!! LOL It practically links into your brain through your butt and knows exactly what you plan to do and what you ate for lunch.
The Mosler is a frame, 2 seats and a motor. It doesn't even have a full interior. I'd be surprised if the turn signals were solid state. They're probably mechanical. The only thing that could be consider state-of-the-art on that car is it's aerodynamic body.
12-03-2011, 01:03 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
The areas where AWD sports cars shine are the quarter mile and in the hands of an inexperienced driver on the street. Under the hands of a well qualified driver RWD is better overall as a sports car.
My rub with the AWD vs. RWD thing is that the other posters on here are right-RWD is better in the hands of an experienced driver. The problem is that when we're talking about two more-or-less equal cars, a good example being the C6 Z06 Carbon Edition and the 2011 Nissan GTR, the list of "experienced drivers" who would be able to flex the Corvette's muscles enough to take down the GTR on a road course (which should be very possible, given paper figures), would not include 80% of the owners on here. I've driven my friend's GTR in some challenging environments, and I can tell you, I could decimate any Z06 lap time I could set at a track at the helm of that thing, no question. It is so incredibly composed that it could turn my golden retriever into an apex-hitting, lap record breaking track star.
You'd need training and track time to dial in a Corvette in the same way, and if Vette owners want to remain RWD purists, especially pushing 600HP, GM might want to offer more readily accessible Corvette driving schools with the purchase of all their Vettes, because while the hypothetical 600HP C7 Z06 or C7 ZR1 may be better than a GTR or 911 Turbo S on paper, the fact remains that in your hands or mine, it would almost certainly be much, much worse. Your hands are the ones handing over the $50,000-$100,000 for the car, so they're the ones that mater.
Last edited by Endeka; 12-03-2011 at 01:06 AM.
12-03-2011, 11:48 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
i actually think one of the smartest moves gm has made so far is offering the 2-day ron fellows driving school with the purchase of the zr1. Maybe if they offered smaller local options for people who purchased less expensive corvettes (on the scale of bmw's 2-day m school) it would help drivers get a better feel for their vettes (and build up a lot of brand loyalty), and move more vette owners into the "well qualified" category.
My rub with the awd vs. Rwd thing is that the other posters on here are right-rwd is better in the hands of an experienced driver. The problem is that when we're talking about two more-or-less equal cars, a good example being the c6 z06 carbon edition and the 2011 nissan gtr, the list of "experienced drivers" who would be able to flex the corvette's muscles enough to take down the gtr on a road course (which should be very possible, given paper figures), would not include 80% of the owners on here. I've driven my friend's gtr in some challenging environments, and i can tell you, i could decimate any z06 lap time i could set at a track at the helm of that thing, no question. It is so incredibly composed that it could turn my golden retriever into an apex-hitting, lap record breaking track star.
You'd need training and track time to dial in a corvette in the same way, and if vette owners want to remain rwd purists, especially pushing 600hp, gm might want to offer more readily accessible corvette driving schools with the purchase of all their vettes, because while the hypothetical 600hp c7 z06 or c7 zr1 may be better than a gtr or 911 turbo s on paper, the fact remains that in your hands or mine, it would almost certainly be much, much worse. Your hands are the ones handing over the $50,000-$100,000 for the car, so they're the ones that mater.
My rub with the awd vs. Rwd thing is that the other posters on here are right-rwd is better in the hands of an experienced driver. The problem is that when we're talking about two more-or-less equal cars, a good example being the c6 z06 carbon edition and the 2011 nissan gtr, the list of "experienced drivers" who would be able to flex the corvette's muscles enough to take down the gtr on a road course (which should be very possible, given paper figures), would not include 80% of the owners on here. I've driven my friend's gtr in some challenging environments, and i can tell you, i could decimate any z06 lap time i could set at a track at the helm of that thing, no question. It is so incredibly composed that it could turn my golden retriever into an apex-hitting, lap record breaking track star.
You'd need training and track time to dial in a corvette in the same way, and if vette owners want to remain rwd purists, especially pushing 600hp, gm might want to offer more readily accessible corvette driving schools with the purchase of all their vettes, because while the hypothetical 600hp c7 z06 or c7 zr1 may be better than a gtr or 911 turbo s on paper, the fact remains that in your hands or mine, it would almost certainly be much, much worse. Your hands are the ones handing over the $50,000-$100,000 for the car, so they're the ones that mater.
12-04-2011, 02:08 PM
#8
99.995%
I consider myself a pretty good driver, I am not a professional race driver, just a normal joe with sports cars. I have attended a few performance driving schools and have been regularly tracking cars for 15years.
I can turn out a pretty decent lap time, in all my cars. That said... I have to disagree with most of the opinions in this thread. I really enjoy my RWD cars, but to be honest... you don't loose anything with a good AWD system. Now I am not talking about Subaru's SYMAWD, I am talking about real performance AWD systems, such as Nissan's GTR, Lambo's new system in the Aventor (sp??) and the Mitsu evo.
If you were to drive my GTR you would not know it is an AWD car until you: Launch it, Dig out of a low speed corner, or screw up. The corvette will eventually need to go AWD, in the mean time, they will need to have a very well developed electronic traction / stability control system (like the McLaren MP4-12C/ Ferrari 458).
I consider myself a pretty good driver, I am not a professional race driver, just a normal joe with sports cars. I have attended a few performance driving schools and have been regularly tracking cars for 15years.
I can turn out a pretty decent lap time, in all my cars. That said... I have to disagree with most of the opinions in this thread. I really enjoy my RWD cars, but to be honest... you don't loose anything with a good AWD system. Now I am not talking about Subaru's SYMAWD, I am talking about real performance AWD systems, such as Nissan's GTR, Lambo's new system in the Aventor (sp??) and the Mitsu evo.
If you were to drive my GTR you would not know it is an AWD car until you: Launch it, Dig out of a low speed corner, or screw up. The corvette will eventually need to go AWD, in the mean time, they will need to have a very well developed electronic traction / stability control system (like the McLaren MP4-12C/ Ferrari 458).
12-04-2011, 06:52 PM
#9
Heel & Toe
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http://youtu.be/kzlg3oQMze4
AWD will help you use all the power. See above link of a C5 and C6 crash.
AWD will help you use all the power. See above link of a C5 and C6 crash.
12-04-2011, 07:14 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
http://youtu.be/kzlg3oQMze4
AWD will help you use all the power. See above link of a C5 and C6 crash.
AWD will help you use all the power. See above link of a C5 and C6 crash.
I know you are not, but go buy a GT-R if you guys love AWD so much. GM need not turn the Corvette into a rear-mid, DOHC, AWD luxury sports tourer to satisfy the few.
KISS!
12-04-2011, 09:12 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
I personally do not think we will ever see a production AWD Corvette. It just doesn't make any sense.
12-04-2011, 09:44 PM
#12
Advanced
12-04-2011, 09:56 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
12-05-2011, 08:12 AM
#14
Racer
Oh well.
12-05-2011, 09:48 AM
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The corvette already gets a free pass on its engine, and doesn't share its y-frame with anything else. Thus the only reason GM hasn't moved to RMR is because they cant amortize an existing tranny. Mid-engine gearboxes don't exist and never have (corvair?) in GM's life. So mid-engine would neccessitate the next gen transmissions to not have a transfer case, but a built in diff. This would sort of screw with the weight balance of their trucks; albeit increase efficiency. Oh, and for awd, check your c6's, they all have splined front hubs! So we wait...
12-05-2011, 10:18 AM
#16
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The corvette already gets a free pass on its engine, and doesn't share its y-frame with anything else. Thus the only reason GM hasn't moved to RMR is because they cant amortize an existing tranny. Mid-engine gearboxes don't exist and never have (corvair?) in GM's life. So mid-engine would neccessitate the next gen transmissions to not have a transfer case, but a built in diff. This would sort of screw with the weight balance of their trucks; albeit increase efficiency. Oh, and for awd, check your c6's, they all have splined front hubs! So we wait...
The only reason that they don't move to a rear mounted Mid-engine configuration is that they chose not to as it does not make sense based on their design criteria (financial, safety, style, engineering, etc.). They are fully capable of producing anything any other manufacturer can produce. They have no shortage of engineering capability available (inside, or if necessary outside of the company).
12-05-2011, 01:42 PM
#17
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Not to mention, gearing is gearing. Regardless of WHERE the LSD is put, it's still in there. Incorporating the diff into the transmission doesn't increase it's efficiency because putting two things in one bigger box achieves the same goal. You still have the same components in the box doing exactly the same thing. The only difference is they're closer together. But I highly doubt that shortening the transmissions output shaft 2-3" is going to make any efficiency increase even noticeable to a computer, let alone us. (Save 0.5gal of gas over 2 years! Whoopy)
12-05-2011, 01:52 PM
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FF transmission like those could only be used in a transverse RMR configuration though. You are right that they could use any tranny manufacturer they wanted, but I'm sure they wouldn't get such a deal as they would with tremec for instance, due to bulk purchases. Of course this is conjecture, but the same argument could be applied to designing a new FMR chassis for the c7; different suppliers, different priorities. I doubt cost is a big issue, but style/practically and safety have got to be at the top for corvette; mid-engine is just better in every other tangible way 
Oh and I wansn't referring to the corvette for the efficiency part, I was talking about if there was no transfer case in a truck, sorry I was vague (I know, that would probably never happen)
Oh and I wansn't referring to the corvette for the efficiency part, I was talking about if there was no transfer case in a truck, sorry I was vague (I know, that would probably never happen)
Last edited by Almost There; 12-05-2011 at 01:56 PM.
12-05-2011, 04:35 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
12-08-2011, 12:31 PM
#20
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For mid engine and front engine rear wheel drive cars with good weight distribution, all wheel drive is a bad choice, for front wheel drive and rear wheel drive (like 911) this is a reasonable alternative although it adds weight and complexity. A car like corvette does not need it and it should never need it in the future.