Sign the Check Engine Light petition!
01-17-2012, 05:08 PM
#1
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Sign the Check Engine Light petition!
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petition...paign=shorturl
No one in their right mind shouldn't sign this petition
No one in their right mind shouldn't sign this petition
01-17-2012, 07:23 PM
#2
Safety Car
Really? What are ODBII codes and a basic description going to do for you?
What is a P303 going to tell you? You have a misfire on cyl. 3, THAT IS IT. COULD BY ANYTHING causing a misfire, from a bad PCM to bad plug to a hole in a pistion!!!
How about a P0300 Random Cylinder Misfire. Diagnose your car based on JUST that and NOTHING else. Good Luck.
FYI, this petition is dumb, code readers that DO the same thing are like $10, or you can get it done FREE at any Autozone or Advanced Auto Parts store.
FYI, a LOT of cars have ON Board ways to access codes via many times the instrument cluster, etc...You just need to either know or have access to OEM service manuals.
To add to this, codes are not a SOLUTION or a SURE PROBLEM. They ONLY give you a direction to go in. I've had them lead me in the WRONG direction. Some problems NEVER throw a code. NOW WHAT!?!?!
Solution: Know what your doing or have an idea, good service manuals, and tools. Then you might find the problem.
Until the average person is smarter than their car, having basic codes and such will do nothing. The modern automobile is the most advanced product EVER issued to non-expert users. PERIOD.
For crying out loud, people cannot understand the basic generic check engine light and what it means. Same goes with TPMS. If it is on steady ALL the time, you need air. If it flashes for 1min on start up then goes solid, you have a system malfunction.
FYI, air (all matter) contacts when it gets colder and expands when it gets hotter. So when the temp. drops 50 degrees from when you last checked your tires and you wonder why the TPMS light is on, well for every 10 degree in temp. change you change 1psi in a tire.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff drives me nuts.
If you cannot, choose not too, or don't know. Then find someone who will, stop being lazy, learn.
Solution to dishonest mechanics: FIND a new one. They do exist, one is typing this right now.
FYI, the 75-100+ dollars a dealer charges you per hour. AT MOST a VERY SENIOR and highly trained Tech. MIGHT make $30 and hour. MOST around 25 if they are lucky. A LOT in the 15 to 20 region.
IT pads the pockets of the dealer owner not the guy doing the work.
Don't even get me started on FLAT RATE PAY....
What is a P303 going to tell you? You have a misfire on cyl. 3, THAT IS IT. COULD BY ANYTHING causing a misfire, from a bad PCM to bad plug to a hole in a pistion!!!
How about a P0300 Random Cylinder Misfire. Diagnose your car based on JUST that and NOTHING else. Good Luck.
FYI, this petition is dumb, code readers that DO the same thing are like $10, or you can get it done FREE at any Autozone or Advanced Auto Parts store.
FYI, a LOT of cars have ON Board ways to access codes via many times the instrument cluster, etc...You just need to either know or have access to OEM service manuals.
To add to this, codes are not a SOLUTION or a SURE PROBLEM. They ONLY give you a direction to go in. I've had them lead me in the WRONG direction. Some problems NEVER throw a code. NOW WHAT!?!?!
Solution: Know what your doing or have an idea, good service manuals, and tools. Then you might find the problem.
Until the average person is smarter than their car, having basic codes and such will do nothing. The modern automobile is the most advanced product EVER issued to non-expert users. PERIOD.
For crying out loud, people cannot understand the basic generic check engine light and what it means. Same goes with TPMS. If it is on steady ALL the time, you need air. If it flashes for 1min on start up then goes solid, you have a system malfunction.
FYI, air (all matter) contacts when it gets colder and expands when it gets hotter. So when the temp. drops 50 degrees from when you last checked your tires and you wonder why the TPMS light is on, well for every 10 degree in temp. change you change 1psi in a tire.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff drives me nuts.
If you cannot, choose not too, or don't know. Then find someone who will, stop being lazy, learn.
Solution to dishonest mechanics: FIND a new one. They do exist, one is typing this right now.
FYI, the 75-100+ dollars a dealer charges you per hour. AT MOST a VERY SENIOR and highly trained Tech. MIGHT make $30 and hour. MOST around 25 if they are lucky. A LOT in the 15 to 20 region.
IT pads the pockets of the dealer owner not the guy doing the work.
Don't even get me started on FLAT RATE PAY....
01-17-2012, 08:29 PM
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The idea is not for car competent people like you and I, but for poor clueless people who are susceptible to dealer fraud. That's all it would do; an easier/universal way to see the codes being thrown up. Sure its not surefire 100% of the time, but if a dealer says something contrary to what the codes say (which can only be diagnosed by oem equipment via private shops or the dealer), then the customer has a reason to be skeptical, and get the problem confirmed from a second source. 
01-17-2012, 08:47 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
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Really? What are ODBII codes and a basic description going to do for you?
What is a P303 going to tell you? You have a misfire on cyl. 3, THAT IS IT. COULD BY ANYTHING causing a misfire, from a bad PCM to bad plug to a hole in a pistion!!!
How about a P0300 Random Cylinder Misfire. Diagnose your car based on JUST that and NOTHING else. Good Luck.
FYI, this petition is dumb, code readers that DO the same thing are like $10, or you can get it done FREE at any Autozone or Advanced Auto Parts store.
FYI, a LOT of cars have ON Board ways to access codes via many times the instrument cluster, etc...You just need to either know or have access to OEM service manuals.
To add to this, codes are not a SOLUTION or a SURE PROBLEM. They ONLY give you a direction to go in. I've had them lead me in the WRONG direction. Some problems NEVER throw a code. NOW WHAT!?!?!
Solution: Know what your doing or have an idea, good service manuals, and tools. Then you might find the problem.
Until the average person is smarter than their car, having basic codes and such will do nothing. The modern automobile is the most advanced product EVER issued to non-expert users. PERIOD.
For crying out loud, people cannot understand the basic generic check engine light and what it means. Same goes with TPMS. If it is on steady ALL the time, you need air. If it flashes for 1min on start up then goes solid, you have a system malfunction.
FYI, air (all matter) contacts when it gets colder and expands when it gets hotter. So when the temp. drops 50 degrees from when you last checked your tires and you wonder why the TPMS light is on, well for every 10 degree in temp. change you change 1psi in a tire.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff drives me nuts.
If you cannot, choose not too, or don't know. Then find someone who will, stop being lazy, learn.
Solution to dishonest mechanics: FIND a new one. They do exist, one is typing this right now.
FYI, the 75-100+ dollars a dealer charges you per hour. AT MOST a VERY SENIOR and highly trained Tech. MIGHT make $30 and hour. MOST around 25 if they are lucky. A LOT in the 15 to 20 region.
IT pads the pockets of the dealer owner not the guy doing the work.
Don't even get me started on FLAT RATE PAY....
What is a P303 going to tell you? You have a misfire on cyl. 3, THAT IS IT. COULD BY ANYTHING causing a misfire, from a bad PCM to bad plug to a hole in a pistion!!!
How about a P0300 Random Cylinder Misfire. Diagnose your car based on JUST that and NOTHING else. Good Luck.
FYI, this petition is dumb, code readers that DO the same thing are like $10, or you can get it done FREE at any Autozone or Advanced Auto Parts store.
FYI, a LOT of cars have ON Board ways to access codes via many times the instrument cluster, etc...You just need to either know or have access to OEM service manuals.
To add to this, codes are not a SOLUTION or a SURE PROBLEM. They ONLY give you a direction to go in. I've had them lead me in the WRONG direction. Some problems NEVER throw a code. NOW WHAT!?!?!
Solution: Know what your doing or have an idea, good service manuals, and tools. Then you might find the problem.
Until the average person is smarter than their car, having basic codes and such will do nothing. The modern automobile is the most advanced product EVER issued to non-expert users. PERIOD.
For crying out loud, people cannot understand the basic generic check engine light and what it means. Same goes with TPMS. If it is on steady ALL the time, you need air. If it flashes for 1min on start up then goes solid, you have a system malfunction.
FYI, air (all matter) contacts when it gets colder and expands when it gets hotter. So when the temp. drops 50 degrees from when you last checked your tires and you wonder why the TPMS light is on, well for every 10 degree in temp. change you change 1psi in a tire.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff drives me nuts.
If you cannot, choose not too, or don't know. Then find someone who will, stop being lazy, learn.
Solution to dishonest mechanics: FIND a new one. They do exist, one is typing this right now.
FYI, the 75-100+ dollars a dealer charges you per hour. AT MOST a VERY SENIOR and highly trained Tech. MIGHT make $30 and hour. MOST around 25 if they are lucky. A LOT in the 15 to 20 region.
IT pads the pockets of the dealer owner not the guy doing the work.
Don't even get me started on FLAT RATE PAY....
Coming from another honest Technician, you are right on the money
Code readers that give generic codes and descriptions (like the petition is after) are readily available and cheap for those who are interested in their car. I also feel that feature would confuse more people than it would help. As it is, a good percentage of people think they are due for an oil change when a "service engine soon" light comes on.
01-17-2012, 08:48 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
I think it is a dumb petition. The trouble with petitions that you cannot undue them and the uninformed ones sign them. Who and how determines how many uninformed signatures you need to collect before it makes a difference? The last thing we want is more goverment controls for cars.
I wouldn't worry too much about it, however, car lobby will put an end to it.
As it was posted before, you can get a scanner today if you want to know what code your computer stored. For a little extra money, the scanner will even explain it to you in English (maybe even in Spanish) what they mean and what is the likely cause of the problem.
I wouldn't worry too much about it, however, car lobby will put an end to it.
As it was posted before, you can get a scanner today if you want to know what code your computer stored. For a little extra money, the scanner will even explain it to you in English (maybe even in Spanish) what they mean and what is the likely cause of the problem.
01-18-2012, 12:41 AM
#6
Drifting
The idea is not for car competent people like you and I, but for poor clueless people who are susceptible to dealer fraud. That's all it would do; an easier/universal way to see the codes being thrown up. Sure its not surefire 100% of the time, but if a dealer says something contrary to what the codes say (which can only be diagnosed by oem equipment via private shops or the dealer), then the customer has a reason to be skeptical, and get the problem confirmed from a second source.
Also, no it can not "only be diagnosed by oem equipment via private shops or the dealer." As said scan tools are available at tons of stores. They will, as said, give the same code that dealers might get. Now granted a techtool or scantech whatever the $1000's dollar device some dealers use is much more in depth, but even that is just a guide. If I told my fiance "bank 2 running lean" was the cause of the problem of her car do you really think she'd give me anything close to a solution?
Finally, there is the internet, everything is on the internet. If people can manage to find this petition, THEN THEY CAN TAKE 5 MINUTES OUT OF THEIR BUSY DAY TO SEARCH "car sputters, check engine light comes on" and get close to an answer. Survival of the fitest is what stuff like this is trying to wipe out. If your too stupid to type a couple words into google, or hell even ask a friend, then its only your fault if you get ripped off.
01-18-2012, 08:03 AM
#7
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I agree with what everyone is saying, but since the codes are alerady available, why not just display them onto one of the many existential alphanumeric displays somewhere in the car? Then the clueless bloke runs into the dealer with at least a modicum of defensive knowledge. 99% of people aren't going to auto-zone or anywhere else before they bring it do a mechanic, so much as stick a paperclip in between their OBD connector!
Last edited by Almost There; 01-18-2012 at 08:05 AM.
01-18-2012, 12:51 PM
#10
Drifting
1) not c7, though I know your trying to get publicity for it
2) They may not go out and get a scan tool, but as I said, EVERYTHING is on the internet. It's not anyone else's fault if you refuse to use the tools at your disposal to better yourself. Like I said, I'd say 80% of cars have some way to display the codes. And again, what is "bank 2 running lean" gonna do to help educate someone?
2) They may not go out and get a scan tool, but as I said, EVERYTHING is on the internet. It's not anyone else's fault if you refuse to use the tools at your disposal to better yourself. Like I said, I'd say 80% of cars have some way to display the codes. And again, what is "bank 2 running lean" gonna do to help educate someone?
01-18-2012, 07:05 PM
#11
Safety Car
Yes, it MAY help someone not get ripped off. More than likely it will confuse them and lead to them being ripped off anyway. An educated consumer is the best defense. Some old fashioned morals and values for EVERYONE would not hurt either. Myself included. We all fall short. Just admit it.
Criminals will always be around, no amount of nanny stuff will stop them from robbing someone.
Life is basically survival of the fittest. An educated consumer (invests in knowledge, does a little internet research/friend, pulls some codes for free at a parts store) will not be likely to be ripped off. Some uneducated ding dong that falls for a cheat, in a way gets what is coming to them. The phrase buyer beware applies here. I've unknowingly at the time have gotten ripped off, but I was smart enough to not forget it and make sure it does not happen again. Learning from ones mistakes (and owning up to them) is what makes children into adults. Unfortunately, there are lots of "kids" out there. Always some a-hole looking to make a buck too. Dog eat Dog, World.
It really is a crying shame. Quite frankly, if your like me, you look forward to Heaven as all this BS on this earth will NOT exist. Amen.
P.S. I don't think the C7 will have this but be prepared for increased amounts of modules, electrical components, and more CAN networks.
Quite frankly, as cool as new cars are, I'm starting to get turned off by them. Getting way to RIDICULOUSLY complicated. Electric door latches on the C6, really folks, really....WHY?
Criminals will always be around, no amount of nanny stuff will stop them from robbing someone.
Life is basically survival of the fittest. An educated consumer (invests in knowledge, does a little internet research/friend, pulls some codes for free at a parts store) will not be likely to be ripped off. Some uneducated ding dong that falls for a cheat, in a way gets what is coming to them. The phrase buyer beware applies here. I've unknowingly at the time have gotten ripped off, but I was smart enough to not forget it and make sure it does not happen again. Learning from ones mistakes (and owning up to them) is what makes children into adults. Unfortunately, there are lots of "kids" out there. Always some a-hole looking to make a buck too. Dog eat Dog, World.
It really is a crying shame. Quite frankly, if your like me, you look forward to Heaven as all this BS on this earth will NOT exist. Amen.
P.S. I don't think the C7 will have this but be prepared for increased amounts of modules, electrical components, and more CAN networks.
Quite frankly, as cool as new cars are, I'm starting to get turned off by them. Getting way to RIDICULOUSLY complicated. Electric door latches on the C6, really folks, really....WHY?
01-18-2012, 09:07 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
Electric door latches on the C6 to enable the indexing windows to be retracted slightly so that the door can open. C5 windows got sucked away from the seal at high speed. That's why.
The thing to take away from this petition is that, as cars commonly get built-in computer displays and menus and cursor/input devices, end-users should be able to check the car's logs / error messages on those displays, without having to buy an external dongle or consult an external display or use a secret handshake to bring it up.
If you've ever tried to solve a problem with your Windows PC, you know how much better your search engine results are when you include a specific error message and not just general symptoms.
.Jinx
The thing to take away from this petition is that, as cars commonly get built-in computer displays and menus and cursor/input devices, end-users should be able to check the car's logs / error messages on those displays, without having to buy an external dongle or consult an external display or use a secret handshake to bring it up.
If you've ever tried to solve a problem with your Windows PC, you know how much better your search engine results are when you include a specific error message and not just general symptoms.
.Jinx
01-19-2012, 04:18 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
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Dumb.
It's a buyer beware situation. Sorry, but the last thing I want is my car-clueless friends crying to me that they can't drive their car because "Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Slow Response Bank 2 Sensor 1" shows up.
This kind of stuff just scares people. A check engine light is the best way to go about it because people don't get worried enough to not drive their cars if the light comes on. They get worried when it blinks (as they should) and that's good enough. People like us may have OBDII scanners (or C5 guys will just pull the codes from the DIC) but your average car-stupid driver will just take their cars to a mechanic and be done with it. I don't blame them.
It's a buyer beware situation. Sorry, but the last thing I want is my car-clueless friends crying to me that they can't drive their car because "Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Slow Response Bank 2 Sensor 1" shows up.
This kind of stuff just scares people. A check engine light is the best way to go about it because people don't get worried enough to not drive their cars if the light comes on. They get worried when it blinks (as they should) and that's good enough. People like us may have OBDII scanners (or C5 guys will just pull the codes from the DIC) but your average car-stupid driver will just take their cars to a mechanic and be done with it. I don't blame them.
01-19-2012, 07:14 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Electric door latches - they are actually needed because the locking mechanism was moved from the door to the door jam. You can't run a cable from the door jam to the door.
For my money, I would've left the lock mechanism on the door.
What I do miss is the ability to bring up the codes on the DIC (just the code) like on previous models. Now you have to buy a scanner (I did).
For my money, I would've left the lock mechanism on the door.
What I do miss is the ability to bring up the codes on the DIC (just the code) like on previous models. Now you have to buy a scanner (I did).
01-20-2012, 09:24 AM
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This article is from the guy who created the petition, its his response article those who disagree on the subject (+plus one response I found to be enlightening). Stir the pot
Yes, The Check Engine Light Still Needs To Die
Aside from the one commenter who called me a "whiny retard" who hates human joy and another describing a scenario that basically had me killing my mother, my call to ban the check engine light inspired thoughtful and insightful comments. But there were several commonly-occurring threads throughout your comments that I feel are worthy of addressing.
For starters, I'd like to restate my main goal: Give the consumer as much information about the condition of their car as possible. It's why we created this petition to begin with (and why you need to sign it now!).
That said let's walk through some of your arguments — and I'll explain why you're wrong and I'm still so very right.
• The AutoZone Fallacy: Yes, AutoZone deserves copious piles of props of the mad variety for their policy of free OBD-II code reading. It's a genuinely great service, and for many people, does the job just fine. But, from what I can tell, most of the population does not live in a colossal AutoZone. As delightful as that may be, the truth is you're not always going to be near an AutoZone. I'm having trouble understanding why taking your car anywhere is preferable to simply reading that information on your own dashboard.
Let's say I somehow convince you, despite the fact that you think I'm a drooling simpleton, to come with me on a trip from LA to Vegas. It's about four hours of delightful desert, largely AutoZone-free driving. As we're bombing along the 15 in our hypothetical convertible, our hands brushing as I shift into 6th, leading to coy glances, our companionable reveries are broken by the ugly appearance of the check engine light on the dash. It could be nothing, a loose gas cap or whatever, or it could mean sitting in the blaring heat on the side of the road 12 miles south of Baker.
If I had a panel on my dash that told me what the issue actually was, I could make an informed decision about whether or not I should continue, or if I should continue at a reduced speed, or if I should stop and attempt a repair, or call a tow truck, whatever. The point is I could actually make some sort of a decision that is better than an uninformed guess. And, I could make the decision when it actually mattered, at any location I happen to be.
You'll note in that bit of Jalopnik-commenter fan fiction that there's no mobile AutoZone bombing along at 80 mph alongside me. Yes, an AutoZone could do this, but I'm hoping for a genuine improvement in the status quo; it's absolutely better to just have my car tell me the issue directly, right there, in the car, when it happens. If I want to ignore it and just treat it like the current check engine light, that process is very, very easy.
You don't need to use your odometer every day, but who would want to go to a store to check how many miles their car had, even for free? The OBD codes are even more important, as they can directly affect your or your car's safety, so why should you have to go anywhere to find out what the issue is?
To summarize: Looking at your dash to find information about your car beats a trip to a special location to find that same info, any day.
• OBD-II Scanner Snobbery: This one kind of bothered me. Yes, having a code reading scanner is great. They are incredibly handy to use. And many are not that expensive, true, and many are actually easy to use. But, not owning one in no way suggests that you somehow haven't earned the right to be knowledgeable about the car you own. DIY car culture is very important to me, and I want to see as many people engaged and interested in their cars as possible. The nature of modern cars does make this harder than in the past, but it can still happen, and exclusionary thinking that suggests there needs to be barriers to entry before people can learn about their own cars strikes me as needlessly elitist. Anybody who decides to be interested in cars and wants to learn more about their own car should be able to do just that, even if they haven't yet gotten around to buying a piece of equipment. Look, I've got 87 octane running in my veins, I do plenty of my own work on my cars, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be great to look at my dash and see what the engine management computer thinks is up. What's the problem with that?
Also, from an ease of use standpoint, glancing at a screen beats plugging something into a relatively inaccessible port any day. And don't get me started on the wire jumper/Nintendo cheat code methods of getting a car to give the OBD codes. It's great there's a way, but blinking codes in morse after jumpering pins is by no means easier than, say, reading off a screen. Easy is what I'm going for here: easy access to information that may be useful.
• People don't care: There's a lot of truth to this one. Lots of people genuinely don't care to know how their cars work, and the check engine light is more than enough for them to ignore. But, trust me, a skillful check engine light ignorist will have no trouble ignoring an engine diagnostic message. Why, I bet they can even use the same ignoring skills for both! This idea will not help these people, but that's ok, because they don't care. I understand my clumsy writing may have led people to think I'm advocating a spring-loaded knife that shoots out of the dash and holds the blade to the driver's neck until he or she gives a ****, but that's not so. If you want the information, great. If not, it's no different.
• People don't want to know this stuff: This one is similar to the above, and the same rules apply. They can ignore whatever they want. But I think more people want to know some technical details than we think. Car advertisers must think so, as many car ads are full of technical details. Hell, even catchphrases like "Does that thing have a Hemi?" are actually referring to arcane details like the shape of the engine's combustion chambers; clearly, people are not repulsed by technical automotive details, at least to some degree.
• I'm a tool of the Nanny State: Yes, I get that not everyone's crazy about more federal meddling; I can be sympathetic there, as I grew up under the grim tyranny of the Only Two Headlight Shapes Allowed era. But what I'm asking for is not a Nanny State-ish, loss of freedom in the dubious name of safety kind of thing. I'm asking that car owners get all the information that is due to them, so they can make their own, better decisions. This is an expansion of personal freedom, not a limitation; I want more information, more resources, and more options. And I think we need it legislated because there's no other incentive to get all the automakers to do it. We're already legislating bumper standards, tire pressure warning systems, emissions— this one doesn't impair the process of driving in any way at all, and aside from knee-jerk, possibly political reactions to the idea of legislated behavior, what's the problem here? The end result is the general public gets access to more information about their own property.
And, I did see some commenters suggesting that such a regulation would cause makers to leave the market, especially small makers like Morgan. If I ever did anything to drive Morgan out of the US market I'd feel absolutely awful. But that's not going to happen. Even the most traditional Morgan, the 4/4, uses a Ford Duratec engine, and it's already got a full OBD-II system. This won't keep anyone out of the US market.
• People won't know what to do with the codes: Here I think we're seeing both an underestimation of both people and companies. First of all, no one said the display had to be only arcane codes. The code, the code's name and a real-English description of the issue could be displayed. There could be assessments of the likely severity of the code, or any number of other descriptors.
Right at the moment, it's true that many of the codes are related in some way to the emissions system, but as manufacturers strive to get more and more efficiency out of the internal combustion engine, more and more parts of an engine will be overseen by the engine computer, and more and more data will be available. The car's owner should have access to as much of this data as they desire, in an easy-to-access way. Manufacturers may seek to gain competitive edges by providing more information, or information in a better, sleeker format.
Even if you only got a code number, many, many people have mad Google skills today, and I can't see any reason why people wouldn't use them. Yes, some people will misdiagnose, and yes, some will go further down a foolhardy road and attempt and fail at repairs they're not qualified to do. But people can do that now with a Chilton's guide and a six of High-Life. That's their own decision and own risk. I don't think seeing a problem description on a dash is going to convince anyone they have long-dormant mechanic skills they never knew about. The same way I don't think they're going to panic any more than they would at a check engine light.
Also, think about buying a used car, and how handy it would be to be able to see, right in the dash, what codes and issues the engine computer is sending. It's no substitute for a thorough mechanical inspection but, as always, more information is better, and the ECU keeps track of many factors (coolant temp, intake air mass, fuel injection timing) that could prove very useful in assessing an engine's overall health.
So, I'm not giving up. This idea could make lives genuinely better, introduce more people into auto enthusiasm, keep dealers and mechanics honest, and save people money.
Sign the petition, please. It'll be worth it.
Contact Jason Torchinsky:COMMENTFACEBOOKTWITTER
RELATED STORIES
Sign The Petition To Ban The Stupid 'Check Engine' Light
Why The 'Check Engine' Light Must Be Banned
DISCUSSION THREADS FEATURED ALL START A NEW THREAD
Brian1321 Thu 19 Jan 2012 3:35 PM
An Xbox 360 allows people to play video games and call eachother "dumbass haxors." It also displays error codes.
Cable boxes allow you to watch PPV **** and sportscenter. It also displays error codes.
Computers allow you to watch ****, photoshop dicks into pictures and spread rumors about celebrities. It displays error codes.
My aunts whirlpool dryer dries clothes and displays error codes.
My Keurig coffee maker makes delicious coffee/tea one cup at a time. It displays error codes.
The printer at my job allows me to practice clearing paper jams. It also displays error codes.
My car, which I rely on more than any of these things, displays a picture of what I think is the Nurburgring or some old timey TNT ignition box. I then have to take it to a magical wizard who can tell me whats wrong with my car.
Things need to change. Put an error code on the dash so I dont have to go see Merlin to know that I have an Evap leak.
Aside from the one commenter who called me a "whiny retard" who hates human joy and another describing a scenario that basically had me killing my mother, my call to ban the check engine light inspired thoughtful and insightful comments. But there were several commonly-occurring threads throughout your comments that I feel are worthy of addressing.
For starters, I'd like to restate my main goal: Give the consumer as much information about the condition of their car as possible. It's why we created this petition to begin with (and why you need to sign it now!).
That said let's walk through some of your arguments — and I'll explain why you're wrong and I'm still so very right.
• The AutoZone Fallacy: Yes, AutoZone deserves copious piles of props of the mad variety for their policy of free OBD-II code reading. It's a genuinely great service, and for many people, does the job just fine. But, from what I can tell, most of the population does not live in a colossal AutoZone. As delightful as that may be, the truth is you're not always going to be near an AutoZone. I'm having trouble understanding why taking your car anywhere is preferable to simply reading that information on your own dashboard.
Let's say I somehow convince you, despite the fact that you think I'm a drooling simpleton, to come with me on a trip from LA to Vegas. It's about four hours of delightful desert, largely AutoZone-free driving. As we're bombing along the 15 in our hypothetical convertible, our hands brushing as I shift into 6th, leading to coy glances, our companionable reveries are broken by the ugly appearance of the check engine light on the dash. It could be nothing, a loose gas cap or whatever, or it could mean sitting in the blaring heat on the side of the road 12 miles south of Baker.
If I had a panel on my dash that told me what the issue actually was, I could make an informed decision about whether or not I should continue, or if I should continue at a reduced speed, or if I should stop and attempt a repair, or call a tow truck, whatever. The point is I could actually make some sort of a decision that is better than an uninformed guess. And, I could make the decision when it actually mattered, at any location I happen to be.
You'll note in that bit of Jalopnik-commenter fan fiction that there's no mobile AutoZone bombing along at 80 mph alongside me. Yes, an AutoZone could do this, but I'm hoping for a genuine improvement in the status quo; it's absolutely better to just have my car tell me the issue directly, right there, in the car, when it happens. If I want to ignore it and just treat it like the current check engine light, that process is very, very easy.
You don't need to use your odometer every day, but who would want to go to a store to check how many miles their car had, even for free? The OBD codes are even more important, as they can directly affect your or your car's safety, so why should you have to go anywhere to find out what the issue is?
To summarize: Looking at your dash to find information about your car beats a trip to a special location to find that same info, any day.
• OBD-II Scanner Snobbery: This one kind of bothered me. Yes, having a code reading scanner is great. They are incredibly handy to use. And many are not that expensive, true, and many are actually easy to use. But, not owning one in no way suggests that you somehow haven't earned the right to be knowledgeable about the car you own. DIY car culture is very important to me, and I want to see as many people engaged and interested in their cars as possible. The nature of modern cars does make this harder than in the past, but it can still happen, and exclusionary thinking that suggests there needs to be barriers to entry before people can learn about their own cars strikes me as needlessly elitist. Anybody who decides to be interested in cars and wants to learn more about their own car should be able to do just that, even if they haven't yet gotten around to buying a piece of equipment. Look, I've got 87 octane running in my veins, I do plenty of my own work on my cars, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be great to look at my dash and see what the engine management computer thinks is up. What's the problem with that?
Also, from an ease of use standpoint, glancing at a screen beats plugging something into a relatively inaccessible port any day. And don't get me started on the wire jumper/Nintendo cheat code methods of getting a car to give the OBD codes. It's great there's a way, but blinking codes in morse after jumpering pins is by no means easier than, say, reading off a screen. Easy is what I'm going for here: easy access to information that may be useful.
• People don't care: There's a lot of truth to this one. Lots of people genuinely don't care to know how their cars work, and the check engine light is more than enough for them to ignore. But, trust me, a skillful check engine light ignorist will have no trouble ignoring an engine diagnostic message. Why, I bet they can even use the same ignoring skills for both! This idea will not help these people, but that's ok, because they don't care. I understand my clumsy writing may have led people to think I'm advocating a spring-loaded knife that shoots out of the dash and holds the blade to the driver's neck until he or she gives a ****, but that's not so. If you want the information, great. If not, it's no different.
• People don't want to know this stuff: This one is similar to the above, and the same rules apply. They can ignore whatever they want. But I think more people want to know some technical details than we think. Car advertisers must think so, as many car ads are full of technical details. Hell, even catchphrases like "Does that thing have a Hemi?" are actually referring to arcane details like the shape of the engine's combustion chambers; clearly, people are not repulsed by technical automotive details, at least to some degree.
• I'm a tool of the Nanny State: Yes, I get that not everyone's crazy about more federal meddling; I can be sympathetic there, as I grew up under the grim tyranny of the Only Two Headlight Shapes Allowed era. But what I'm asking for is not a Nanny State-ish, loss of freedom in the dubious name of safety kind of thing. I'm asking that car owners get all the information that is due to them, so they can make their own, better decisions. This is an expansion of personal freedom, not a limitation; I want more information, more resources, and more options. And I think we need it legislated because there's no other incentive to get all the automakers to do it. We're already legislating bumper standards, tire pressure warning systems, emissions— this one doesn't impair the process of driving in any way at all, and aside from knee-jerk, possibly political reactions to the idea of legislated behavior, what's the problem here? The end result is the general public gets access to more information about their own property.
And, I did see some commenters suggesting that such a regulation would cause makers to leave the market, especially small makers like Morgan. If I ever did anything to drive Morgan out of the US market I'd feel absolutely awful. But that's not going to happen. Even the most traditional Morgan, the 4/4, uses a Ford Duratec engine, and it's already got a full OBD-II system. This won't keep anyone out of the US market.
• People won't know what to do with the codes: Here I think we're seeing both an underestimation of both people and companies. First of all, no one said the display had to be only arcane codes. The code, the code's name and a real-English description of the issue could be displayed. There could be assessments of the likely severity of the code, or any number of other descriptors.
Right at the moment, it's true that many of the codes are related in some way to the emissions system, but as manufacturers strive to get more and more efficiency out of the internal combustion engine, more and more parts of an engine will be overseen by the engine computer, and more and more data will be available. The car's owner should have access to as much of this data as they desire, in an easy-to-access way. Manufacturers may seek to gain competitive edges by providing more information, or information in a better, sleeker format.
Even if you only got a code number, many, many people have mad Google skills today, and I can't see any reason why people wouldn't use them. Yes, some people will misdiagnose, and yes, some will go further down a foolhardy road and attempt and fail at repairs they're not qualified to do. But people can do that now with a Chilton's guide and a six of High-Life. That's their own decision and own risk. I don't think seeing a problem description on a dash is going to convince anyone they have long-dormant mechanic skills they never knew about. The same way I don't think they're going to panic any more than they would at a check engine light.
Also, think about buying a used car, and how handy it would be to be able to see, right in the dash, what codes and issues the engine computer is sending. It's no substitute for a thorough mechanical inspection but, as always, more information is better, and the ECU keeps track of many factors (coolant temp, intake air mass, fuel injection timing) that could prove very useful in assessing an engine's overall health.
So, I'm not giving up. This idea could make lives genuinely better, introduce more people into auto enthusiasm, keep dealers and mechanics honest, and save people money.
Sign the petition, please. It'll be worth it.
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Brian1321 Thu 19 Jan 2012 3:35 PM
An Xbox 360 allows people to play video games and call eachother "dumbass haxors." It also displays error codes.
Cable boxes allow you to watch PPV **** and sportscenter. It also displays error codes.
Computers allow you to watch ****, photoshop dicks into pictures and spread rumors about celebrities. It displays error codes.
My aunts whirlpool dryer dries clothes and displays error codes.
My Keurig coffee maker makes delicious coffee/tea one cup at a time. It displays error codes.
The printer at my job allows me to practice clearing paper jams. It also displays error codes.
My car, which I rely on more than any of these things, displays a picture of what I think is the Nurburgring or some old timey TNT ignition box. I then have to take it to a magical wizard who can tell me whats wrong with my car.
Things need to change. Put an error code on the dash so I dont have to go see Merlin to know that I have an Evap leak.
01-20-2012, 01:07 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles California
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OK... If the system doesn't tell them what is wrong in a "robotic" sense and gives them an idea about severity and if it's self-fixable (like a gas cap), then I like this idea. If instead of a check engine light it said "Please check gas cap" or something to that extent, then I can see this being a decent proposal.
If there's a massive miss-fire that could be something along the lines of an over heat or head gasket, rather than telling them what it is, it should simply say "Safely pull over and turn off the car" or (again) something to that extent. I don't believe it should be required to tell them EXACTLY what is wrong if the problem is more technical. Instead of having it give you information for YOU to make an informed decision, it should help you make that decision with suggestions.
If there's a massive miss-fire that could be something along the lines of an over heat or head gasket, rather than telling them what it is, it should simply say "Safely pull over and turn off the car" or (again) something to that extent. I don't believe it should be required to tell them EXACTLY what is wrong if the problem is more technical. Instead of having it give you information for YOU to make an informed decision, it should help you make that decision with suggestions.
01-20-2012, 07:09 PM
#17
Safety Car
It is interesting you mention a "Check Gas Cap" Light. My 2001 Ford Focus has one, as do many Fords. Nissan started using this in 2011. I'm sure many others do as well...
Also, GM's and Fords with Sync, have a function for getting your CEL, "diagnosed." GM via OnStar, and Ford via Sync via Vehicle Health Report.
On a Ford (with Sync), if your check engine light comes on you can do a Vehicle Health Report, they can give you an idea of what is wrong and advise of what to do. I know GM has a similar setup with OnStar.
For the semi-informed consumer I can see the advantage of having an easy read out. Here is the thing, as I have mentioned many cars ALREADY do this, but how to access the info is NOT common knowledge.
The average consumer is NOT an expert on car or even semi-informed. They treat cars like any other APPLIANCE on they might own like a Television or Washing Machine.
I'm not buying a lot of those arguments the Petition creator made, if you cannot find $10 for a code reader or find that TOO inconvenient, give me a break. If you want to know, you'll invest in some VERY basic tools.
There is TONS of info out there on any make, model of vehicle...there is this thing called the internet...I know,.
So what if your on a trip and the CEL comes on? I'd be in the same boat. I do not carry around my scan tool with me. If the car was running fine, I'd do a quick check around under the hood and proceed on to where I could check the code and then make a decision. If it was flashing or not running right, well that is why I got AAA. Besides knowing what is wrong is NOT going to fix it alongside the road. As I have mentioned before Codes and description are only a starting point.
Truth be told, you do not see cars sitting around on the side of the road much anymore. I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 you do see are there because of the owners lack of maintenance and general neglect. What about people running around with CEL on ALL the time. I see it just about every day.
Here is a tool of limited value and could be misleading... http://www.carmd.com/
I'm all for a informed consumer, it would make my life easier in many cases, but the resources are out there, people need to show a little initiative, find them, and learn.
I just re-read that article, apparently I'm a "magical wizard." Nice attitude buddy...
Also, GM's and Fords with Sync, have a function for getting your CEL, "diagnosed." GM via OnStar, and Ford via Sync via Vehicle Health Report.
On a Ford (with Sync), if your check engine light comes on you can do a Vehicle Health Report, they can give you an idea of what is wrong and advise of what to do. I know GM has a similar setup with OnStar.
For the semi-informed consumer I can see the advantage of having an easy read out. Here is the thing, as I have mentioned many cars ALREADY do this, but how to access the info is NOT common knowledge.
The average consumer is NOT an expert on car or even semi-informed. They treat cars like any other APPLIANCE on they might own like a Television or Washing Machine.
I'm not buying a lot of those arguments the Petition creator made, if you cannot find $10 for a code reader or find that TOO inconvenient, give me a break. If you want to know, you'll invest in some VERY basic tools.
There is TONS of info out there on any make, model of vehicle...there is this thing called the internet...I know,
.So what if your on a trip and the CEL comes on? I'd be in the same boat. I do not carry around my scan tool with me. If the car was running fine, I'd do a quick check around under the hood and proceed on to where I could check the code and then make a decision. If it was flashing or not running right, well that is why I got AAA. Besides knowing what is wrong is NOT going to fix it alongside the road. As I have mentioned before Codes and description are only a starting point.
Truth be told, you do not see cars sitting around on the side of the road much anymore. I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 you do see are there because of the owners lack of maintenance and general neglect. What about people running around with CEL on ALL the time. I see it just about every day.
Here is a tool of limited value and could be misleading... http://www.carmd.com/
I'm all for a informed consumer, it would make my life easier in many cases, but the resources are out there, people need to show a little initiative, find them, and learn.
I just re-read that article, apparently I'm a "magical wizard." Nice attitude buddy...
Last edited by 93Rubie; 01-20-2012 at 07:19 PM.
01-22-2012, 10:49 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
FYI: I don't have a gas cap on one of my vehicles. Now what? Please remove the gas pump nozzle before driving away?
01-31-2012, 12:47 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
Here is a tool of limited value and could be misleading... http://www.carmd.com/
01-31-2012, 08:29 PM
#20
Safety Car
That's actually pretty useful for people that don't know much about cars. My sister got one. I was pretty skeptical until I saw how it works. She had a CEL, checked her car with it and got a code. It pretty much tells you what you need to fix and how much it should cost you. Saved a trip to the mechanic.
Respectfully, yes it gives you a code and an IDEA of what MIGHT be wrong, very general in nature. As I recall it can give you a LIST of possibilities not a diagnosis. It does NOT tell you exactly what is wrong or what needs fixed. The costs are a ball park only. My point is CarMD is general in nature, it COULD be very misleading to the consumer rather than informing. Depending on circumstances. Which of course vary, greatly.
For the uninformed consumer, there maybe some utility in this, but don't take what you get as gospel. The problem is many people WILL take it as gospel. A CarMD or a scan tool is NOT smarter than a good automotive technician.
Just my opinion.
